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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dragon Sickness and Mountain Tales
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lionoferebor
Rohan


Mar 21 2017, 4:08am

Post #1 of 31 (4540 views)
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Dragon Sickness and Mountain Tales Can't Post

The following sequence has probably been discussed before. Still, sometimes it is interesting to revisit prior discussions. It gives newcomers a chance to share their thoughts on a scene and for us oldies - but goodies - a chance to see if our view of it has changed. (I figure if people can change their overall opinions on these films, why not a particular scene?)

Also, what follows is my perception. Perhaps yours is the same. Perhaps it is not. Either way, it's okay. Now onto the topic.

Upon Fili, Kili, Bofur, and Oin's arrival at Erebor Bilbo tells them of Thorin's odd behavior, stating: He's been down there for days. He won't eat; he won't sleep. At this point Fili's focus turns from Bilbo to a soft glow on a lower level of the Erebor. Bilbo continues, warning:A sickness lies on this place. Kili replies:What kind of sickness? At the same time Fili, who seems to have tuned everyone else out, makes his way to the lower level.

Based on his question, Kili is unsure of what sickness Bilbo is speaking of; while Fili, based on his actions, seems to at least have an inkling - if not a full understanding- of what it may be.

Fast forward a little to when they see Thorin in the treasury. In this scene Kili exchanges what appears to be a confused look with Bofur and Oin. A look that almost says, "What in Durin's name is wrong with Thorin?" Fili on the other hand, like Bilbo, never takes his eyes off Thorin. And when Thorin says: Behold, the treasure hoard of Thror the alarm on Fili's face implies he knows what the sickness is.

Again it is implied that Fili is seems aware of the Dragon Sickness and Kili seems unaware. Is it possible for one to know and the other not? Yes, but flashback to DOS when Fili says he and Kili grew up in tales of the Mountain. Tales Thorin told them. Assuming they both heard the same stories, how can one seem aware and the other not? Is it possible Thorin omitted the Dragon Sickness from his stories and Fili learned of it from another source (e.g. perhaps Balin or his mother)? Is it possible Thorin did tell them of the Dragon Sickness and Kili's confusion is not a lack of awareness, but rather disbelief? Or could there be another reason? What are your thoughts?

Side note: I omitted Bofur's and Oin's reactions because - seeing as they are not as close to Thorin as Fili and Kili - it is more likely they would have no knowledge of the Dragon Sickness.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 21 2017, 7:05am

Post #2 of 31 (4449 views)
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My Take [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that this subject has come up before in this precise manner. Stories of dragon sickness might be taken by the Dwarves the same way that tales of dragons themselves are taken by the folk of the Shire: largely dismissed as exaggerated legends rather than truth. Fili takes the notion seriously even as Kili does not even consider the idea.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 21 2017, 7:06am)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 21 2017, 4:59pm

Post #3 of 31 (4408 views)
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Hmmmm.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, they probably heard about their great-grandfather Thror having the "Dragon sickness," but probably believed that Thorin was too strong and wouldn't have the same problem. I seriously doubt Thorin would spend a lot of time telling his nephews about it. I always thought that Fili had to see for himself instead of taking Bilbo's word for it. As for Kili, well he could be in denial; or he'd just never thought it could happen again, so he took "sickness" as a literal illness similar to what he'd just been through. MY biggest question on that scene is why did Thorin throw the huge ruby at Fili? Other than giving Fili a great close-up, I'm not sure what that was all about? Perhaps as his heir Thorin wanted to acknowledge him? Perhaps he expected Fili to join him in the revelry of gold? Surely he didn't mean to share the treasure, since he "would not part with a single coin"? Very curious indeed.

I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!


Hanarr
The Shire

Mar 21 2017, 5:59pm

Post #4 of 31 (4400 views)
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Dragon Sickness and Mountain Tales [In reply to] Can't Post

The focus of these scenes is Fili, although he has no lines, and I've wished the actors had commented more about what's going on here.

When he notices the glow from the treasure room, he stops listening to Bilbo. It seems to me it's the gold that draws his attention, because he can't see Thorin from that spot. Fili does seem to have some idea of how all that gold might affect Thorin. I assumed that because he's Thorin's heir he would have been told more about what happened to his great-grandfather and the fall of Erebor than Kili was, although half of Middle-earth seems to know that a "strain of madness runs deep in that family."

I think parts of the treasure room scene are meant to remind us of Thorin watching his gold-sick grandfather in the same room, and now it's Fili watching his gold-sick uncle mumbling to himself that this treasure surpasses any sorrow or grief. Not the welcome to Erebor that Fili was expecting, clearly.


Hanarr
The Shire

Mar 21 2017, 6:10pm

Post #5 of 31 (4398 views)
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The ruby [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... MY biggest question on that scene is why did Thorin throw the huge ruby at Fili? Other than giving Fili a great close-up, I'm not sure what that was all about? Perhaps as his heir Thorin wanted to acknowledge him? Perhaps he expected Fili to join him in the revelry of gold? Surely he didn't mean to share the treasure, since he "would not part with a single coin"? Very curious indeed.


Good question. I do think that when Thorin throws the ruby, he means the treasure is also Fili's birthright. He obviously expects his sister-sons to be proud that the treasure has been reclaimed.

When Thorin later says he won't part with a single coin, I didn't think he meant the treasure was his and his alone, but that it belonged to the dwarves of Erebor and no one else. But since at that point he's come to believe he's been betrayed by his own kin, maybe he does think it's all his and he wants the ruby back.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Mar 21 2017, 10:26pm

Post #6 of 31 (4372 views)
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Did Dragon sickness only strike certain individuals? Why only Thorin? [In reply to] Can't Post

A Durin family susceptibility only? Seems odd - otherwise, all of them would have been raving lunatics about the treasure.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 22 2017, 12:03am

Post #7 of 31 (4359 views)
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Dragon sickness [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, the only one specified as having dragon sickness is the Master of Lake-town. Thorin and other Dwarves of the company are only inferred through context to have developed the malady.

Jackson seems to have interpreted dragon sickness differently for the films. Thror develops it even though his own treasure was not long-possessed by a great worm.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Eruonen
Half-elven


Mar 22 2017, 4:05am

Post #8 of 31 (4333 views)
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Me thinks they blame the poor dragon as a scapegoat for their [In reply to] Can't Post

genetic nature of being greedy - especially for gold and gems. Even without the dragon, I don't see dwarves as being a welcoming, friendly, sharing in the wealth type of people..unless you were a known quantity and established friend...ala Bilbo.
If there is a "dragon sickness" it is a transfer of the gold greed that is a natural make up of dragons to other being through long exposure. This article makes some good points - that dragon sickness is a taint of Morgoth on gold that serves to warp those susceptible...greedy dwarves, men and dragons. It is like bait for dragons - cat nip so to speak. Morgoth new how to entrap certain beings. Sauron did the same with Rings of Power....gold. http://scifi.stackexchange.com/...ive-or-literal-curse


dormouse
Half-elven


Mar 22 2017, 9:33am

Post #9 of 31 (4323 views)
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It's a very good question.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I've wondered a lot about that scene.

As far as the different responses from Fili and Kili goes, I think it's probably part of the character difference they've sketched between the two: Fili very much the elder brother and the heir; responsible, protective, aware of what lies behind things that happen, while Kili is more headstrong and easy-going. And though this isn't explained in the film, I rather assumed that Fili seeming to know what Bilbo means while Kili hasn't a clue could just indicate that someone at some time did tell them about the danger of possessing gold but Kili wasn't listening. Or perhaps that Fili was told more, being the heir. Your suggestion that Kili didn't believe it would work just as well. (It's always struck me that although they didn't give as much screen time to Fili particularly - and Kili - as a lot of people would have liked, in the way they did develop the brothers and their relationship with Thorin they captured, consciously or not, something which has tended to happen in real royal families through the centuries, the heir to the throne being the serious, responsible one, of whom a lot is expected, the 'spare' being more easy-going and liable to get in trouble.)

Going back to the scene, when I first saw it I did wonder if they were suggesting that Fili, being the heir, was more susceptible to the lure of the hoard than Kili, but I've gone off that idea.

This is one of those moments in The Hobbit films when I think they played with ideas which they didn't have time - working time or screen time - to develop fully, so that what we see on screen is only a part of something which might have been longer. If that's true, I'd love to see the rest!

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


lionoferebor
Rohan


Mar 22 2017, 12:20pm

Post #10 of 31 (4299 views)
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Ditto [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
This is one of those moments in The Hobbit films when I think they played with ideas which they didn't have time - working time or screen time - to develop fully, so that what we see on screen is only a part of something which might have been longer. If that's true, I'd love to see the rest!


I also feel more was intended for this scene - or perhaps a follow up scene later in the film - but, for whatever reason, it never made it into the final cut.


In Reply To
(It's always struck me that although they didn't give as much screen time to Fili particularly - and Kili - as a lot of people would have liked, in the way they did develop the brothers and their relationship with Thorin they captured, consciously or not, something which has tended to happen in real royal families through the centuries, the heir to the throne being the serious, responsible one, of whom a lot is expected, the 'spare' being more easy-going and liable to get in trouble.)


Admittedly, I am one of those who wish the films placed more focus on Fili and Kili's relationship (it's one of my favorite and most memorable aspect of the book), but I agree the films did capture the "traditional" roles these two play as the heir and the spare.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Mar 22 2017, 1:15pm

Post #11 of 31 (4292 views)
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Parting with the ruby [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin gifting Fili with the ruby is another aspect of this scene I too have wondered about. (1) Why Fili? (2) If Thorin will not part with a single coin, not one piece of it, why give it away?

To start, out of the five standing there I think it makes sense that Thorin would give a piece of the treasure to one of his nephews verses Bofur, Oin, or Bilbo. That leaves the question: Why Fili and not Kili? The only explanation I can think of is that Fili's the heir and - as Hanarr suggest - the treasure is his birthright. Perhaps in a more broader sense the gifting of the ruby is Thorin's way of saying: This treasure and all that surrounds it (Erebor) will one day be yours.

As for why give it away in the first place, if Thorin is not willing to part with the treasure, I think Hannar's explanation that the treasure belongs to the Dwarves and not only Thorin is sufficient.

In the end, as dormouse suggest, I think there were certain aspects of this scene - Fili and Kili's opposing reactions and the ruby - that were intended for further development but, for whatever reason, never made it into the final film.


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 22 2017, 1:59pm

Post #12 of 31 (4296 views)
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Part of an heir's education [In reply to] Can't Post

I scatter, I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor! Because *I* am a river to my people!
-Auda abu Tayi, Lawrence of Arabia (1962)


Any heir to a throne would need to be warned about this.

For example, in Beowulf King Hrothgar warns Prince Beowulf not to be like King Heremod, who was greedy and hoarded wealth, refusing to distribute it to his people as a good king should.

So he passed alone,
chieftain haughty, from human cheer.
Though him the Maker with might endowed,
delights of power, and uplifted high
above all men, yet blood-fierce his mind,
his breast-hoard, grew, no bracelets gave he
to Danes as was due; he endured all joyless
strain of struggle and stress of woe,
long feud with his folk.

-Beowulf

Note another king in Middle-earth also suffered from the Dragon Sickness, though there wasn’t a dragon around for a thousand miles:

Fengel. He was the third son and fourth child of Folcwine. He is not remembered with praise. He was greedy of food and of gold, and at strife with his marshals, and with his children.
-Appendices, The Kings of the Mark


Tolkien actually visited this theme first in 1923, with his poem “lúmonna Gold Galdre Bewunden”, which is a line from Beowulf: “the gold of men of long ago enmeshed in enchantment”. The poem went through a couple of revisions, eventually appearing as “The Hoard” in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and Other Verses from the Red Book.

The swords of his thanes were dull with rust,
his glory fallen, his rule unjust,
his halls hollow, and his bowers cold,
but king he was of elvish gold.

-The Hoard


Throughout Tolkien’s Legendarium there are examples of how a greedy king can spell disaster for his people, just as how a generous king (or Queen of Lothlorien, or Elf-lord of Rivendell, or Master of Buckland, or Gentry of Bag End) can greatly aid the cause of Good.

So as others have pointed out, Fili, as Thorin’s heir, would have been groomed for kingship, and thus would be more likely to have been schooled in the dangers of being a greedy king, i.e., Dragon Sickness. Kili probably wouldn't have received much, if any, such tutoring, as you don't want the second in line to get any ideas.

******************************************
Aragorn and Legolas went now with Éomer in the van.
-Helm’s Deep, Chapter 7, Book III, The Two Towers




(Thanks to Brethil for image.)

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 22 2017, 2:06pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 22 2017, 2:10pm

Post #13 of 31 (4285 views)
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Progression [In reply to] Can't Post

We see the dragon sickness weigh more and more heavily on Thorin as the movie progresses. He was in the grip of it already when the Lake-town Four reached Erebor, but not so far that he was seeing the treasure as his alone and was becoming paranoid of even his closest followers. We don't see that until about the time the survivors of Esgaroth reach the ruins of Dale. Being on foot and burdened with children, the old, and the sick and injured, they were probably at least a couple of days behind the Dwarves. In the book, Bard's army reaches Dale fully two weeks after the death of Smaug and that is only with the men fit to travel and the Wood-elves (though they also don't leave the encampment until a week or more after the attack).

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Hanarr
The Shire

Mar 22 2017, 4:53pm

Post #14 of 31 (4265 views)
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A strain of madness [In reply to] Can't Post

When Elrond says, "A strain of madness runs deep in that family. His grandfather lost his mind, his father succumbed to the same sickness. Can you swear Thorin Oakenshield will not also fall?" he does seem to me saying the line of Durin is susceptible to some kind of madness if not specifically dragon-sickness. But 1) how would Elrond know at this point what happened to Thrain and 2) neither Thorin nor Thrain were struck with gold-sickness in Erebor before its fall, despite being in close proximity to all that treasure.

And isn't Elrond wrong in saying that Thrain succumbs to the same sickness? I thought he was tortured into madness in Dol Guldur.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 22 2017, 5:45pm

Post #15 of 31 (4258 views)
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Thrain [In reply to] Can't Post

Indeed; Elrond's words fits the Thrain of the book far better than the film version of the character. In Tolkien's The Hobbit Thrain actually does go off with several companions to explore the idea of reclaiming Erebor. In the films he is captured in the Battle of Moria. And Elrond is being very meta here; how could he possibly know that Thrain has gone mad? A flash of foresight?

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Eruonen
Half-elven


Mar 22 2017, 8:23pm

Post #16 of 31 (4232 views)
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Morgoth midichlorian to blame - DSM ICD 301.DSS - Dragon Sickness Syndrome [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 22 2017, 9:27pm

Post #17 of 31 (4222 views)
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Maybe Balin's story? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure when the Battle of Moria (still can't spell that other name) took place in movie-verse, but in the movie Balin told Kili & Fili about this battle. He said Thrain was driven mad by grief; I suppose Elrond could have heard the story as well. But of course, it wouldn't be the SAME sickness, would it? I think that's a boo-boo on PJ's partCrazy - kind of like the boo-boo in Laketown where we lose a day (we've talked about this before).
Darnit, now I'm going to have to re-watch that scene with Elrond, LOL!Wink

I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 22 2017, 11:48pm

Post #18 of 31 (4211 views)
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There is that... [In reply to] Can't Post

Balin's story might have been Jackson's way of covering his backside. Probably a lot of Dwarves were a bit mad at the end of the Battle of Azanulbizar (I don't even have to look it up any more!). Though since Thráin disappeared at the end of the battle, it's hard to guess how even Balin knew much about his mental state.

As for the timing, my best guess that in the continuity of the films, Smaug attacked Dale and Erebor no later than 120 years before (say around 2820) Thorin's Quest of Erebor. I've placed Jackson's Battle of Moria at the year 2829 (Thrór and Frerin are slain; Thráin II is lost) with Thorin leading his people to the Blue Mountains in 2832.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 22 2017, 11:50pm)


lionoferebor
Rohan


Mar 22 2017, 11:52pm

Post #19 of 31 (4205 views)
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Dragon Sickness in the films [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Jackson seems to have interpreted dragon sickness differently for the films. Thror develops it even though his own treasure was not long-possessed by a great worm.


Agree, Jackson does seem to have steered away from the concept that dragon sickness is derived from treasured long-possessed by a dragon. It is said in the AUJ prologue that a dragon covets gold with a dark and fierce desire. Based on this - and the unhealthy obsession Thror, and later Thorin, had over the treasure - I interpret dragon sickness in the films to mean those who suffer from it covet gold the same a dragon would. Hence they are sick like a dragon.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 22 2017, 11:55pm

Post #20 of 31 (4196 views)
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Yes, pretty much. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


lionoferebor
Rohan


Mar 23 2017, 12:12am

Post #21 of 31 (4202 views)
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Not the same sickness [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Thrain's madness, at least what Balin speaks of, is dragon sickness. Rather it's the result of deep grief over the loss of his father (and possibly his son, Frerin, though the films make no mention of him). Still this does not explain how Elrond would have this knowledge.

By the way, on the topic of the ruby, I wonder what Fili ended up doing with it. Did he keep it? Give it back? I guess we'll never know.


lionoferebor
Rohan


Mar 23 2017, 12:19am

Post #22 of 31 (4197 views)
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Word of mouth [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Balin heard of Thrain's mental decline from those who last saw him on the battlefield.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 23 2017, 5:24pm

Post #23 of 31 (4147 views)
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re: the ruby [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
By the way, on the topic of the ruby, I wonder what Fili ended up doing with it. Did he keep it? Give it back? I guess we'll never know.


Well we never see him with it after that, so based on what I know of movie Fili, I'd guess he waited until Thorin wasn't looking, and tossed it aside. Ooooh, I feel a fanfic coming on!



I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!


Hanarr
The Shire

Mar 23 2017, 8:31pm

Post #24 of 31 (4137 views)
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Fili's ruby [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

By the way, on the topic of the ruby, I wonder what Fili ended up doing with it. Did he keep it? Give it back? I guess we'll never know.


He turns it over looking at it as though confused why Thorin threw it to him. It seems to be a random gem in the pile, and I can't think why it would have much significance to Fili other than that Thorin gave it to him, so while he might have put it aside somewhere I don't think he'd have placed much value on it.

Fili also might have cast the ruby away in disgust just as he and the other dwarves angrily throw down their weapons and armor after Thorin forbids them to join the battle (in the BTS).


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Mar 27 2017, 1:50am

Post #25 of 31 (3973 views)
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Hey, can I borrow that? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Fili also might have cast the ruby away in disgust just as he and the other dwarves angrily throw down their weapons and armor after Thorin forbids them to join the battle (in the BTS).


I've started a fanfic, and was thinking that he might have tossed it aside when they were building the barricade, but yours actually sounds better!

I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!

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