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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 7 2017, 1:44pm
Post #1 of 11
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Of the appendixes
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One thing I was wondering about was how to reconcile PJs version of what happened in the appendixes with Tolkiens. And actually trying to figure out what PJs version is anyway. Now, as I understand it, according to PJ the Nazgul where defeated by the Men of the North and entombed in Dol Guldor. All well and good. But I wonder how this relates to Earnur as an example. Earner was the last King of Gondor before Aragorn very good in battle, but perhaps not the wisest of people.
He did defeat the Witch-King outside Angmar, but according to Tolkien, the Witch-King was not entombed but fled to Minas Morgul where years later the Witch-King taunted Earnur, challenged him to a duel which Earnur against advice accepted, went to Minas Morgul but was betrayed and never heard of again and was thought to have been betrayed captured and tortured to death in captivity.
Obviously this does not reconcile with the movies. But perhaps some version of events could be found which does keep Earnurs personality the same true PJ fashion but some of the facts altered. If the Witch-King was entombed at Dol Guldor, who knows maybe even Azog could have been at Minas Morgul and issued the challenge in the movie version.
And of course any other changes with the appendixes I would be interested in knowing about. The Watchful peace was a bit different as well.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 7 2017, 3:01pm
Post #2 of 11
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I doubt reconciliation can be reached.
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According to Tolkien, The Nine Rings were distributed among the Men who became the Nazgūl in the Second Age, sometime after the War of the Elves and Sauron (from SA 1693 to 1701). The Nine first appeared as Ringwraiths around SA 2250. Following the defeat of Sauron by Isildur, the Nazgūl were either overthrown ore (more likely) went into hiding, only to re-appear around the year 1300 of the Third Age. Glorfindel's prophesy concerning the Witch-king of Angmar was made at the Battle of Fornost (TA 1975) when the Kingdom of Angmar fell.
In Jackson's The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Elrond states in Rivendell that Middle-earth has been experiencing 400 years of peace (PJ's version of the Watchful Peace), allowing us to infer that the defeat of the Witch-king and the other Ringwraiths took place sometime around TA 2540, give-or-take a few years, brought about chiefly by the Men of the West. This suggests that Jackson's version of Angmar outlasted Tolkien's by more than five hundred years. We can speculate that Arthedain was still destroyed in 1975 and that King Eärnur of Gondor still fell to the Lord of the Nazgūl in 2050.
Obviously this does not reconcile with the movies. But perhaps some version of events could be found which does keep Earnurs personality the same true PJ fashion but some of the facts altered. If the Witch-King was entombed at Dol Guldor, who knows maybe even Azog could have been at Minas Morgul and issued the challenge in the movie version.
The Witch-king was never entombed at Dol Guldur. Jackson's tombs were in his made-up site of the High Fells in the Misty Mountains bordering Rhudaur. They would have needed to be somewhere north of Rivendell and the High Pass. As long as we can posit Angmar enduring long after the fall of the North-kingdom we do not need to re-imagine the final confrontation between Eärnur and the Witch-king. But we can speculate that Eärnur might not have died conventionally; he could have been tortured with a Morgul-knife and been transformed himself into a lesser Wraith. That might be how Elrond and Gandalf know about the Morgul-blades and the danger they represented to Frodo. This could be part of an unrevealed secret history of Middle-earth.
Another question that the movies bring to mind is when did the Mirkwood Elves wage war against Angmar? Presumably it was related to the capture and death of Thranduil's queen; and it had to be prior to the birth of Tauriel, approximately six hundred years before the Battle of Five Armies. Even if no one was willing to speak of the death of the Queen, how is it that Tauriel knew nothing about Angmar or that her people had ever been at war with the kingdom?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 7 2017, 3:04pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Mar 8 2017, 8:28pm
Post #3 of 11
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Another question that the movies bring to mind is when did the Mirkwood Elves wage war against Angmar? Presumably it was related to the capture and death of Thranduil's queen; and it had to be prior to the birth of Tauriel, approximately six hundred years before the Battle of Five Armies. Even if no one was willing to speak of the death of the Queen, how is it that Tauriel knew nothing about Angmar or that her people had ever been at war with the kingdom?
Well the way I took that (movie-verse only) is that Legolas is obviously MUCH older than Tauriel, AND that since Thranduil won't speak of "it," no one else does, either. It's likely that younger Elves just aren't told about that part of the Wood Elf history. (Plus she's a "lowly Silvan elf," and even though she was taken in by Thranduil he never filled her in on much of the Elven history surrounding his wife's death. There seems to be some distinct lines drawn between the lowly and the Royalty, which apparently includes history about "old enemies.") This could be the Elven version of the Dwarves Battle for Moria, which apparently Kili & Fili were unaware of. Balin said although they won, there was no celebration or song, because their dead was beyond the count of grief. I think that happens in real life, where history records the great victories and tends to ignore the mistakes - like a certain debacle that happened off the English coast while the Allies prepared for D-Day. Two ships were sunk by German subs during a nighttime exercise, and the whole thing was buried for something like 40 years! It still doesn't get that much attention, does it?
I'd say I've entered my second childhood, but I never left the first!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 9 2017, 5:58pm
Post #4 of 11
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Yes, not in a totally purist manner
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But I was wondering if, in true PJ fashion one could think of events which are near to what happened in the book but a bit different yet keep the characters broadly the same. I am always a bit puzzled when people like Elves and Orcs talk about been at war. After all wasn't been at war a normal state of affairs between the two peoples? Another chapter I thought of was the Rohan chapter and Helm Hammerhand in particular. If in PJs version the watchful peace ended at the time of the Hobbit, Rohan couldn't really have been invaded at that time. Yet there is a prominent statue of Helm at Helms deep. Maybe Rohan could have been invaded by Angmar before this. And Helm died in a heroic defence of the deep in a siege. Maybe.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 9 2017, 8:47pm
Post #5 of 11
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Consider that Tolkien wrote that in the year TA 2509 Elrond's wife Celebrķan was attacked by Orcs in the Redhorn Pass while returning from Lothlórien. She sustained a poisoned wound and the following year departed over the Sea. That might give the Elves of Rivendell and even the Grey Havens enough reason to join with the Dśnedain of Eriador and bring an end to the kingdom of Angmar. This could actually help explain the tombs of the Ringwraiths in Rhudaur and Jackson's 'Watchful Peace'. The only mystery is why does it seem as though none of the Istari were involved, not even Gandalf? And then there is the question of how were the undead Nine defeated and bound to their tombs? We are told that mighty spells were used; perhaps spells that have been lost to time and can no longer be cast.
The War of the Elves and Sauron (SA 1693 to 1701) was probably far too early for Legolas to have been involved in it. But if we ignore his apocryphal birth year of TA 87 from background for the LotR films then we can posit that he might have been around for the Last Alliance of Men and Elves. Perhaps in the film universe it was Thranduil's wife who died in that war and not his father (or maybe both did; she at Gundabad and Oropher in the Battle of Dagorlad). Legolas might have been too young yet to go to war.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 9 2017, 8:50pm)
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wizzardly
Rohan
Mar 10 2017, 10:37pm
Post #6 of 11
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There can be no reconciliation...
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unless you are able to accept that PJ only based his movies very loosely on the general premise of the book. He could have simply based his adaptation on the Amazon description, without actually reading it, and come up with basically the same result.
"Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed into the absurdity of our time." -Christopher Tolkien
(This post was edited by wizzardly on Mar 10 2017, 10:42pm)
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Loresilme
Valinor
Mar 13 2017, 12:22pm
Post #7 of 11
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I just wanted to say how much I am enjoying reading this discussion. As one who loves both the books and the films, I am always interested in learning more about how the events and characters of the books were transitioned to the films. It is a treasure to have a board like this where topics can be discussed so thoughtfully, with open-mindedness and respect for others' opinions. I wish we could still 'mod up', but lacking that, I'll just say thanks and I hope the discussion continues  !
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Mar 13 2017, 11:59pm
Post #8 of 11
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Why can't we say mods up btw? I have never had one of those!
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 17 2017, 7:33pm
Post #10 of 11
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Probably the most-missed feature of the old boards.
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I still miss those little black squares, and the little hollow circles were our best (and almost only) defense against trolls until the Admins came into being.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Mar 27 2017, 1:18pm
Post #11 of 11
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Oh that's right! There was modding *down* as well
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That was very handy also!
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. 
) on the post, which, as I recall, would thereby change the little symbol 'thingy' next to the post to a different shape, and said shape would then serve as a visual indicator that the post or discussion therein was particularly worthwhile 