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Faramir5
Bree
Mar 11 2017, 11:04pm
Post #1 of 29
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With the Ring, how could Sauron rule over everything?
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I'm rereading through Fellowship of the Ring and this is a question I've always wondered about. He can control the other rings with the One Ring, but what does that mean? Is he literally able to become master over all the races and decide their fates?
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Mar 11 2017, 11:32pm
Post #2 of 29
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He can control the rings' owners. Since many owners are great leaders, he can dictate what he wants through them.
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I always follow my job through.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 11 2017, 11:42pm
Post #3 of 29
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With the One Ring in his possession he would have
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restored much of his power and physical presence. There would be none in MIddle Earth who could have stood against him with the decline of the Elves and the weakened state of Men. Galadriel, Gandalf and Elrondi would have lost their rings of power. Note - the forces of Sauron were about to destroy Aragorn and his forces outside of the Black Gate had it not been for the destruction of the ring. With the ring his victory would have been certain in the near term. Sure, some resistance would have taken place but his resources would have crushed all opposition eventually. Would the Valar have intervened? Unclear. Would Eru have tolerated the outcome?
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Mar 12 2017, 12:09am
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Would Sauron's regaining of the One Ring be part of the Music?
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I always follow my job through.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 12 2017, 12:15am
Post #5 of 29
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Eru, The One, could reorder the universe anytime. He allowed Morgoth's influence out of novelty, and incorporated it. But, it was never allowed to become the Music....only Morgoth's pride and petulance allowed him to think he was in control...but he wasn't.
Whether Sauron, his lackey would have ruled without interruption is something we can only guess at....I doubt he would have reigned for long. I think his rule would have triggered a remaking,
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imin
Valinor
Mar 12 2017, 1:38pm
Post #6 of 29
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Are you meaning Sauron had no physical body at the time of the LOTR?
All posts are to be taken as my opinion.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 12 2017, 2:32pm
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He was not able to manifest - all we saw was a spiritual projection
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(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 12 2017, 2:34pm)
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imin
Valinor
Mar 12 2017, 2:41pm
Post #8 of 29
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I thought thats what you meant but wanted to be sure.
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At the time of the LOTR Sauron had a physical body again
All posts are to be taken as my opinion.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 12 2017, 2:52pm
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You will have to show me where it says that - my understanding all along
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was that with the loss of the ring and most of his power invested in it he could no longer physically manifest. We never see him in the books.
There is some suggestion from Gollum but whether he saw a physical hand or a spiritual one while being tortured - in a letter JRR Tolkien mentioned a possible physical presence - but it unclear if that form is "real" or projection -
https://www.quora.com/...hy-is-he-just-an-eye
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 12 2017, 3:04pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 12 2017, 3:20pm
Post #10 of 29
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"In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance."
The context here is clearly Third Age, which is in tune with other letters, one in which Tolkien notes that Sauron was always de-bodied when vanquished, and another in which Tolkien notes the idea in general...
... that as long as the Ring exists, Sauron can reform a physical body, only that it took him longer after the Last Alliance than it had after the destruction of Numenor (see below). This is also borne out by the Tale of Years, and more generally, a physical Sauron fits Gollum's reference to Sauron's fingers, taken all together.
Sauron was a corporeal being by Frodo's day, but could not appear fair, and could not remake a body after the One's destruction.
Some citations from letters. Sorry about lack of letter numbers here, or in most cases, the dates:
"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished." JRRT 1957
" ... It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was ’real’, that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the ’will’ or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear ’mythologically’ in the present book."
Note the impossibility of ’re-building’ after the ’destruction of the Ring’, not after having lost possession, for example.
"But they were still living on the borders of Myth -- or rather this story exhibits ’myth’ passing into History or the Dominion of Men; for of course the Shadow will rise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy; he will direct Men and all the complications of half-evils, ..."
"After which the Third Age began, a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and change world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, and the last also in which Evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape." JRRT Letters
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imin
Valinor
Mar 12 2017, 4:03pm
Post #12 of 29
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I had a feeling you might post so gave it some time and you did :)
There are a couple other quotes that show he had a body at the time of the lord of the rings.
'Then Sauron was for that time vanquished, and he forsook his body, and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.' Silmarillion, of the rings of power and the third age.
Note it says for many long years, not forever more/until he got the ring back.
Also:
'About the year 1000 of the third age, when the shadow of Sauron began first to grow again to a new shape. ' Letter 144.
I actually think it is a very important point of the story that Sauron has a body as it is one of the main reasons (maybe the reason) for destroying the ring.
All posts are to be taken as my opinion.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Mar 12 2017, 4:34pm
Post #13 of 29
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I had those collected already, but I really should add the dates and numbers some day.
Good additions. My guess is that Sauron was fully rebodied by Third Age 2951[Sauron declares himself openly], although that's just a very conservative date, as he could have been fully physical much, much earlier.
"Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his rising ever again. For he will lose the best part of his strength that was native to him in the beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."
Gandalf Greyhame, The Last Debate
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enanito
Rohan
Mar 13 2017, 5:29am
Post #14 of 29
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As pointed out, Sauron was described as the last possible physical incarnation of Evil. After an eventual destruction, Evil would only govern thru influence, but not by direct physical embodiment.
In this sense, Sauron would have an ability to "rule over everything" in a way unlike other beings who would merely be emissaries of Darkness in Middle Earth. Sauron was a direct inheritor of Melkor's dominion of Middle Earth, in a way that other beings are never able to match, even if they were also purely evil in nature (Balrogs both winged and un-winged, irredeemable soul-less orcs, Dragons, etc).
With his full power restored thru recovery of the One Ring, and the decline of the High Elves and those of Numenorean blood, Sauron would indeed rule completely and entirely. Only a divine intervention would be able to wrest control from him.
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squire
Half-elven
Mar 13 2017, 12:18pm
Post #15 of 29
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The Ring conveys Power over others' wills.
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It is, as you say, the master Ring, so that its wearer can dominate and control the wearers of the lesser Rings, and presumably indirectly control the kingdoms, states and tribes those Ring-holders rule over.
But the One Ring is a Ring of Power. It also enhances the dominant will of its wearer to control and compel any other sentient and willful beings. We see this most clearly in Boromir's soliloquy at Parth Galen:
'The Ring would give me power of Command. How I would drive the hosts of Mordor, and all men would flock to my banner!’ - LotR II.10 The on-the-ground result of this side of the Ring (more or less ignored by the Elves and Wizards who advise Frodo, but not by Denethor or Aragorn) is that Sauron has complete and unquestioned command over his armies of Men, not to even mention his orc-slaves, from the East and South - and from the West and North too should he recover the Ring. No soldier could fight him; no captain could defy him. All would go over to his side under the spell of the Ring. Thus, complete and utter military victory - which he is fairly placed to accomplish anyway, of course, given the power of his native personality. But as we learn at the Council of Elrond and the Last Debate, Without the Ring, Sauron can still win at this point in the Third Age:
" 'Only the waning might of Gondor stands now between him and a march in power along the coasts into the North; and if he comes, assailing the White Towers and the Havens, ...' " - LotR II.2
But with the Ring, his victory will be even faster and more complete and terrifyingly permanent:
" 'If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts.' " - LotR V.9
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Mar 13 2017, 3:50pm
Post #16 of 29
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Plus, if a leader falls out of power and loses the ring, he'll move onto the next being who finds it.
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I always follow my job through.
(This post was edited by ange1e4e5 on Mar 13 2017, 3:51pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 13 2017, 4:25pm
Post #17 of 29
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All of this raises the question of how long Eru would allow Sauron dominion
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before either a direct intervention by the Valar or a total remaking of the world. We can only guess.
Total victory would end up being very boring for old Sauron. What would be left to undermine? After he has established cults of worship and is running things he would start to look for, indeed hoping for - a rebellion to crush. In fact, I think Sauron must know his time is limited and that his old master Morgoth cannot rescue him. Enjoy it while it lasts because he to will "face the music".
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 13 2017, 4:29pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 13 2017, 7:33pm
Post #18 of 29
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One million dollars worth of promise worth ten cents on delivery.
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While in possession of the Ring Sauron had his head handed to him first by Gil-Galad, then by Ar-Pharazôn, and finally by Isildur.
I'm not seeing how a 0-3 record says possession of the Ring means diddly-squat. In fact one could argue Sauron could have done lots better by *not* making the danged thing at all! The Ring is a mockery like all things "created" by Evil. It's not a Ring of Power, but a Mockery of Power. Ironically it was only the simple Sam who had the Wisdom to see through the Ring's BS: "And anyway all these notions are only a trick", he said to himself. (The Tower of Cirith Ungol)
In the end, there were only two ways Sauron could have lost. Either by losing the Ring. Or else by getting the Ring.
Eru stacked the deck.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 13 2017, 7:35pm
Post #19 of 29
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How could Sauron have lost while in possession of the Ring in the first place?
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“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 13 2017, 7:35pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 13 2017, 8:54pm
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Well, Gil-Galad and Elendil perished in combat and Isildur had a lucky strike
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...otherwise, Sauron would have been victorious.
" But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."
“Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age”
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Mar 13 2017, 8:56pm)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 13 2017, 8:57pm
Post #21 of 29
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A "lucky" blow....as luck is perceived, thank you Eru
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 13 2017, 9:22pm
Post #22 of 29
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"...the siege was so strait..."
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That is, the battle was going so bad that Sauron had to go out expose himself to danger. Thanks for the help, Mr. Ring.
...Sauron would have been victorious.
So Sauron's record in possession of the Ring would have been 1-2. Still not very impressive. In baseball even the worst team is expected to win one-third of their games.
But even if he had won the victory it would have been pyrrhic. That is, one more victory like that and Sauron would have been finished.
In the end Sauron was "thrown down" and the Ring survived.
This means something.
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 13 2017, 9:28pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 13 2017, 9:37pm
Post #23 of 29
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What about the first two?
(Though, yes, I didn't count the entire downfall of Numenor defeat thing as a fourth loss, which was definitely by Eru's hand.)
******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"
-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 13 2017, 11:27pm
Post #24 of 29
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Well, Sauron's physical form, like Gandalf's can be damaged but he cannot be
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"killed" in the way an elf or man can be. His new form may be marred but he could keep on coming back - maybe not right away - as long as the ring existed. By the time of the 3rd age very few, could have resisted his will. Aragorn was not Elendil or Isildur and Elrond was not Gil Galad. Gandalf and maybe Galadriel for awhile at least. With the ring, his will would have corrupted what was left of the West. If not a threat, why was everyone focused on destroying the Ring? Because, it was the one thing he needed to accomplish his mastery.
Morgoth, after having spread his power about Middle Earth so much, was much reduced in native power when he fought Fingolfin. Even after his defeat and outer body destruction, his spirit still existed as was cast into the void.
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imin
Valinor
Mar 14 2017, 12:02am
Post #25 of 29
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“Sauron was, of course, ‘confounded’ by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.”
Letter 211
“But Sauron struck too soon, before his own power was rebuilt, whereas the power of Gil-galad had increased in his absence; and in the Last Alliance that was made against him Sauron was overthrown and the One Ring was taken from him. So ended the Second Age.”
Appendices
Also just because Sauron had the ring, it doesnt make him God, though it does increase his power. He can't just into god mode and destroy everyone at a whim. At the end of the day this is a Maiar who almost got killed by a dog and had an elf stand up to him in a battle of wills (Finrod). Glaurung got defeated by Turin, Fingolfin wounded Morgorth etc.
With Ar-Pharazon, the king had a massive numerical advantage. Sauron turned it to his advantage with the ultimate distancing of elves and men and destruction of Numenor.
Sauron had a physical body and as such could be killed and would then take time to rebuilt - this was shorter if still in possession of the ring, hence why it took less time after destruction of numenor as sauron still had the ring in his possession.
Also if the ring existed then Sauron even not in possession of it could still use some of its power to rebuild a body as a large part of his will was in the ring. So essentially if the ring survives sauron can't properly be defeated as he will just keep coming back.
If the ring is destroyed then Sauron loses the ability to rebuild his body and is effectively destroyed. If Sauron gets the ring back then at the time of the Lord of the Rings, it would make him powerful enough to give certainty to victory, which is also as much down to the weakening of his enemies as getting the ring back.
He also wanted the ring back as he feared someone else would use it. He wasn't bothered if someone like Frodo got it, as he could destroy him, but someone like Gandalf with the ring, would have been able to defeat him and overthrow him. According to Tolkien Gandalf could have possibly been able to master the ring and break the will of Sauron which is the same to Sauron as the ring being destroyed, another good reason to get it back.
All posts are to be taken as my opinion.
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