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Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell
Mar 3 2017, 9:54pm
Post #1 of 6
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ROTK: Corsair ship scene
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Having watched the films many times before reading the books, I was always thrown off by this scene when Aragorn sees the ships after leaving the Paths of the Dead. He has a grim look on his face as he sees this secret fleet of only 12-13 ships, probably consisting of maybe 50 enemies per ship. That amounts to around 600-700. Is that really enough to change the battle?? What is the exact number in the book? Were there more ships coming, just not in sight of the camera shot?
It just always stood out for me every time I watched it.
"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 3 2017, 10:37pm
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There might well have been more Corsair ships than we saw on camera, but I also suspect that they were packed with more troops than you think, The estimate I see in Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth places Aragorn's forces at the 30 Dúnedain of the Grey Company (plus Elladan, Elrohir, Legolas and Gimli) and about 1000 Men from the Southern Fiefs.
However, in movie terms, I expect that many ghostly soldiers could fit on those ships regardless of the size of the fleet.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 3 2017, 10:39pm)
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hanne
Lorien
Mar 4 2017, 1:56am
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Here's the description of what the defenders in Minas Tirith saw during the battle:
"...black against the glittering stream they beheld a fleet borne up upon the wind: dromunds, and ships of great draught with many oars, and with black sails bellying in the breeze."
And later, Gimli tells Merry and Pippin about seizing the ships:
"There at Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count."
He goes on to say some ships were burnt, but Aragorn sent one Dunedain to captain each big one that was left. So there must have been about 30 of the larger ships to sail up the river.
The number of men in the ships is only described as "many captives set free, and many slaves released...and a great gathering of men out of Lebannin and the Ethir.."
You might also make some guesses based on how they decided to use the surviving soldiers after the battle:
"Aragorn should find some two thousands of those that he had gathered to him in the South; but Imrahil should find three and a half thousands; and Eomer five hundreds of the Rohirrim who were unhorsed but themselves warworthy, and he himself should lead five hundreds of his best Riders on horse; and another ocmpany of five hundred horse there should be, among which should ride the sons of Elrond with the Dunedain and the knights of Dol Amroth: all told six thousand foot and a thousand horse. But the main strength of the Rohirrim that remained horsed and able to fight, some three thousand under the command of Elfhelm, should waylay the West Road against the enemy that was in Anorien."
So Aragorn had more than two thousand men in at least 30 ships, is my reading of it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 4 2017, 2:54am
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It seems that Fonstad's estimate was a bit low. And if around 2000 or more troops survived the battle then Aragorn must have arrived with more--maybe over 3000. That comes out to about 100 fighters per ship.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 4 2017, 2:55am)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Mar 14 2017, 9:26pm
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It is easy to forget that the Rohirim avoided getting into a disastrous fight
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with the blocking force (thanks to Ghan Buri Ghan) but it was still out there and a threat "some three thousand under the command of Elfhelm, should waylay the West Road against the enemy that was in Anorien."
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Na Vedui
Rohan
Apr 3 2017, 11:14pm
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(Just caught up with this discussion...)
Oddly enough, I was talking the other day to someone about the Mary Rose, the Tudor ship that was sunk and found again. He astonished me by saying there would have been several hundred men on board when she sank. I found the following on Wikipedia:
"Throughout her 33-year career, the crew of the Mary Rose changed several times and varied considerably in size. It would have a minimal skeleton crew of 17 men or fewer in peace time and when she was "laid up in ordinary" (in reserve).[39] The average wartime manning would have been about 185 soldiers, 200 sailors, 20–30 gunners and an assortment of other specialists such as surgeons, trumpeters and members of the admiral's staff, for a total of 400–450 men. When taking part in land invasions or raids, such as in the summer of 1512 [when she sank], the number of soldiers could have swelled to just over 400 for a combined total of more than 700. Even with the normal crew size of around 400, the ship was quite crowded, and with additional soldiers would have been extremely cramped".
So even if the Corsair ships were rather smaller, I suspect you're right, and Aragorn would have had plenty of space for however many men he could muster. The original Corsair force might have been pretty big too.
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