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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Mar 2 2017, 8:25pm
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Thinking about Ents
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My wife and I have reading through the LotR together, a most enjoyable pursuit.
In reading over the Treebeard chapter a few things came to mind.
First, I began to think of Ents more like giants and less like trees. In other words, I think they were more humanoid creatures with tree-like features and less like trees who had human-like features (like in the movies). Not a major shift, but interesting nonetheless.
Second, and more interesting in my opinion, is thinking through their origin. A friend and I were chatting about the Ents, about a week before we read through the Treebeard chapter, about how the Ents came to be. We talked about when Yavanna "made" them with the help of Eru via Manwe, that it was said that "spirits" from afar were summoned into them.
So what type of spirit are we talking? For many believe there are only Valar and Maiar who are spirits (excluding of course the spirits of the children of Eru who recieved it from the flame imperishable). So we talked about the possibility of them being lesser Maiar, because these spirits being summoned means they existed before the ents did.
But then as my wife and I read through this chapter Treebeard says the elves cured the Ents of their "dumbness." This is most likely in reference to their speech. Now I do not think this would be an apt description for any of the ainur, who are products of Eru's thought. None of them could be described rightly as being dumb or without speech. Rather this sounds more like animals and plants who were enobled by the teaching of the elves, something an ainu would not need.
So is this a reference to other types of spirits existing in Middle Earth when it was created? I am leaning toward saying, "Yes." Thoughts?
Not all those who wander are lost
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hanne
Lorien
Mar 2 2017, 8:55pm
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Not all the Maiar speak, do they? I am thinking of Huan (who did speak, but only three times and mostly behaved just like a dog) and Orome's horse. So it wouldn't stretch the limits of what we've seen for me to imagine a spirit deciding to be a nonverbal plant.
On the other hand, why would such a spirit need Elves to teach it; that's an interesting question. Perhaps the answer is that it was more "waking up" than "teaching".
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 2 2017, 9:09pm
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My understanding is that there were Ainur who were not counted among either the Valar nor the Maiar. They might have even been far more numerous that the other two groups combined.
Then there were other spirits that Tolkien never fully defined. Tom Bombadil may have been one of them. Others might have been used to give intelligence to the first Werewolves or fused with the bodies of huge Orcs as Boldogs. Goldberry might have been a nature spirit or she might have been an Ainu.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Mar 2 2017, 9:17pm
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As far as I know about Huan, he is not ever described as a Maia, nor is Orome's horse.
I would think that both of them were ennobled beasts because of their connection with the Valar. That is they were raised above their natural state by the relationship with certain Vala/Maia. So Huan and his horse were raised above their natural station by Orome, but they were still a dog and a horse. Much like Bill the pony could have been raised up to speech level if he spent more time with the elves. I think the same would hold true for the eagles and their relationship with Manwe.
To your second point, It would be very odd indeed for an elf to teach or wake-up a Maia so that he could learn to speak... That would be a total role reversal.
Not all those who wander are lost
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rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell
Mar 2 2017, 9:21pm
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It depends on what you mean by ainur. Many I encounter limit the definition of Ainu to only the Valar and Maiar, only those who came forth from Eru's thought and who sang in the music.
Others use a more broad definition of Ainur to include any spirit at all.
I was using the more strict definition, but I could be persuaded to use the more loose definition ;-)
Either way, i think this shows there were other spirits which existed besides the traditional Valar and Maiar definitions. These would include in my estimation: Goldberry, Bombadil, Ents, and other nature spirits like Cahadras perhaps.
Not all those who wander are lost
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 2 2017, 10:17pm
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I agree Huan and the horse don't seem like obvious Maiar,
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but aren't they basically immortal as in never aging and having endless lives? Yes, Huan could be killed, but so could immortal Elves. My point being that he lived for centuries in Beleriand and who knows how long before that in Valinor. But I'm 50-50 on this, and maybe he and Orome's horse were ennobled, as you put it.
Which makes me wonder if Shadowfax died in Valinor, or if Gandalf was able to give him an endless life there.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 2 2017, 10:20pm
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Speaking Maiar, and trying to figure out the Balrog as an example
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It's conspicuous that the Balrog of Moria never spoke when confronting Gandalf at the Bridge, even though the Wizard was positively chatty. Maybe that just made him seem more menacing and to contrast the two.
Earlier when they were having that magic duel over control of the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul, I remember Gandalf not only recited a spell but spoke a word of Command. He said the Balrog's counterspell was terrible--a spell has to be uttered out loud, right? Or is it good enough to think it?
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Khim
Bree
Mar 3 2017, 8:05pm
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I'm pretty sure etymologically speaking spell as a term connoting magic is intrinsically verbal, and we know how much Tolkien enjoyed such philological niceties, yet he may be simply invoking magic in a speechless context regarding the Balrog's counter spell.
Tolkien describes Balrogs yelling. Is yelling a form of speech? As opposed to shriek, cry, bellow, etc.
You may find this discussion of talking Balrogs interesting:
http://tolkien.slimy.com/essays/TAB1.html
I am Khim akin to Mim.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Mar 3 2017, 8:34pm
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Guessing they are more like Yavannas children in the sense that Dwarves were Aules children, and so in truth another form of the Children of Eru, rather than spirits
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At least they place themselves together with the free people and the children of Eru in their rhymes and verses, even together with Hobbits after they met them.
Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the spirits beeing summoned quote, is the idea that they possibly existed before the world.
The Ents however are not spirits in the sense that the Ainur are, the Valar and the Maiar. These all can take and leave form at will, and do not conceive.
Ents are bound to their form, and have entlings. They conceive in their form. They are perhaps more like to Melian or the Istari, but probably not as free as these.
I think the only thing that can be determined for certain is that like all the beeing made by Eru, from Valar down to the lowest children, they are self-aware with an immutable identity and cannot be coerced against their own will, without physical force. Not by anyone no matter how powerful.
When reading the expression 'spirits from afar were summoned' this should be placed in the context of this beeing a Human tradition of Elvish legends, neither of which would have known for certain where Ents came from, except the belief or faith that Iluvatar gave them life. Their true origin, that of the individual, may not be all that different from Elves, or Humans, or Dwarves.
At very least they are a far far cry from the Ainur.
Eagles perhaps might be the best compare.
At least that's what I would think.
But I agree they are definitely more tree-ish humanoids, than moving trees with faces.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Mar 3 2017, 8:36pm)
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