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I have often wondered about the economy of Hobbiton and Baggins weatlh
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 28 2017, 8:11pm

Post #26 of 39 (821 views)
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The Mayor vs. the Thain [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe there is an error in that wiki entry. It seems that the Thain, not the Mayor of Michel Delving, was the master of the Shire-moot. The Thain seems to have only wielded Shire-wide power in times of emergency.

From "Of the Ordering of the Shire":


Quote
The Thain was the master of the Shire-moot, and captain of the Shire-muster and the Hobbitry-in-arms, but as muster and moot were only held in times of emergency, which no longer occurred, the Thainship had ceased to be more than a nominal dignity.


Of course the Mayor was also First Shirriff (and Postmaster). As such he managed the Watch, the Shire's police force otherwise known as the Shirriffs, both those twelve (three to each Farthing) assigned to Inside Work, and the Bounders who protected the Shire from Outsiders. I strongly suspect that Farmer Maggot was once a Bounder and that might be how he came to be acquainted with Tom Bombadil.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 28 2017, 8:15pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 28 2017, 8:17pm

Post #27 of 39 (821 views)
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A rope-walk [In reply to] Can't Post

was where you literally walked from one end to the other of a very long, narrow shed, twisting the yarn (using a simple piece of machinery on wheels) into one long rope. Here's a nice little YouTube video of a traditional rope-walk.

The ironic thing is that although rope-making was of course many centuries old, the rope-walk is really a bit of simple Industrial Revolution technology, and the long ropes they made seem to have mostly been for use in shipping. Since the hobbits never went anywhere near the sea, what did they need a rope-walk for? We aren't told, and we can imagine anything we like, but I think it's really just another example of an English tradition being used to give an impressionistic picture of the Shire as 19th century England, without worrying too much about whether or not it makes logical sense in terms of a realistic economy.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 28 2017, 8:33pm

Post #28 of 39 (811 views)
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Rope-sellers [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, there are other uses for rope besides shipping. The Hobbits may have sold rope to the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains and to Bree-landers (and of course to their own folk). I suspect that a few hardy Men lived, or at least hunted, trapped and fished, in the lands between the Lune River and the Blue Mountains that the Elves abandoned after the rise of Angmar. The Elves of the Grey Havens probably produced their own rope.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Feb 28 2017, 8:41pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Feb 28 2017, 8:34pm

Post #29 of 39 (809 views)
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Well, ropes have plenty of uses in agrarian work from pulling buckets of water up [In reply to] Can't Post

to hoisting bales to using them with animals etc.


squire
Half-elven


Feb 28 2017, 8:43pm

Post #30 of 39 (799 views)
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Rope a dope! [In reply to] Can't Post

Whoops! What a great point about rope-walks being part of English country life because England was a great maritime nation - which the Shire most definitely was not.

Of course, we can speculate on other uses for rope in an inland farm economy that included, according to the Prologue of LotR, "a forge-bellows, a water-mill, or a hand-loom." Rope is handy for any number of construction projects, for lifting and lashing. In particular, given the small stature of the hobbits, they may have been masters of the block and tackle for moving heavy construction weights, an application that can use a lot of rope depending on the multiplication of force required.

I wondered if they used bells in steeples for fire and other alarms, which would also be a use for long ropes even without an ecclesiastical context, but no! When Fatty alerts the countryside to the Black Riders, and Marry raises the Shire during the Scouring, the only alarm used is horn calls. Rivendell and Dale, Minas Tirith and the Morthond Vale may have had merry bells, but not the Shire.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 28 2017, 9:06pm

Post #31 of 39 (798 views)
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Yes, for sure. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's easy enough to imagine how ropes might have been used in the Shire, and it's a good solid working-class craft for Sam's family to be in. It's just the whole idea of a "rope-walk", with its machinery for making ropes many "fathoms" long, is mostly associated with making the huge, long ropes needed for ships. Like Sam's "fish and chips", that he offers to make for Gollum, it's something very English that gives a familiar impression of working-class life, yet it can't actually be the same in the Shire as it is in England. You either have to take it as an impression of Englishness and not examine it too closely, or else imagine some other version of the "rope-walk" and the "fish and chips" that don't rely on being close to the sea.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 1 2017, 2:36pm

Post #32 of 39 (754 views)
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Rivendell isn't Faerie? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
The question then is what is on the *other* end?


Everyplace from Rivendell to Mordor and beyond.


So what is at the *other* other end?

Or is the Shire not a bridge to Faerie?

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 1 2017, 2:42pm

Post #33 of 39 (752 views)
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Faerie [In reply to] Can't Post

Rivendell is Faerie.
Mirkwood is Faerie.
Lórien is Faerie.
Mordor is Faerie.
The Grey Havens is (are?) Faerie.

Perhaps I misunderstand the question.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 1 2017, 2:44pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 1 2017, 2:58pm

Post #34 of 39 (747 views)
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A bridge goes both ways. [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Shire is a bridge to Faerie. The question then is what is on the *other* end?"

The Author? The Reader? Reality? New Jersey?

I trust I make myself obscure.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Mar 1 2017, 3:14pm

Post #35 of 39 (742 views)
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The Reader? [In reply to] Can't Post

Normally, I'd say that the Shire is where the journey starts. But if the Shire is the bridge then it starts with the Reader, or possibly the Protagonist, who is the proxy for the Reader.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Eruonen
Half-elven


Mar 1 2017, 3:33pm

Post #36 of 39 (729 views)
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I think there is a Faerie wormhole from our universe to the Tower Hills that plops you [In reply to] Can't Post

down near the Western shore and the Shire. All visitors enter here though none can wholly return....once visited it connects a tendril to you forever. It might explain the occasional odd findings in The Shire such as potatoes, etc.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Mar 5 2017, 9:04am

Post #37 of 39 (694 views)
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This statement here could be a bit of evidence [In reply to] Can't Post

In an unexpected party page 27 in my copy, speaking to Thorin, "All the same, I should like it plain and clear,' said he obstinately, putting on his business manner (usually reserved for people who tried to borrow money off him) and doing his best to appear wise and prudent.
Now then, people trying to borrow money of him, busines manner? This suggests to me that he might have lend some money for business matters. Now obviously, Bilbo isn't Scrouge of Christmas Carol fame, he is too popular for that and I am sure that Tolkien would not wish to make a hero out of an industrialist money lender. A nice agrairian money lender is a different matter of course. But he might well have provided cheap loans for the needy at a generous rate of interest but of course at enough of a profit to provide a comfortable living for himself.


FarFromHome
Valinor


Mar 5 2017, 12:02pm

Post #38 of 39 (692 views)
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Or it could be evidence of the opposite... [In reply to] Can't Post

It describes Bilbo's manner towards people who "tried" to borrow money off him. Which implies that they failed. Which then implies that he used the stuffy business manner to put people off, when he thought they were taking advantage of his good nature to try and bum a loan.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



squire
Half-elven


Mar 5 2017, 1:18pm

Post #39 of 39 (688 views)
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Why would we assume that Bilbo charges interest on loans? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the reference. I see where you were coming from now. However, I'm not sure I buy Bilbo's statement as meaning he was some kind of "nice agrarian money lender" of "cheap loans" with "enough of a profit to provide a comfortable living". It just doesn't sound like anything else we know about the Shire and its hobbits.

Now, many pre-industrial cultures disallow interest. It is, after all, a rather magical concept to the uneducated or "uneconomic" mind. I'd like to suggest that the concept of interest simply does not exist in Middle-earth.

That would help explain the relative poverty and underdevelopment of the countryside in a temperate-zone continent once dominated by a progressive empire, and the almost total lack of money and money-based planning and discussion, aside from matters involving specie (hard metal cash or precious items) throughout the books.

It might even be true of biological populations: they just don't increase according to the rule of compounding, for whatever fantastical reason. Thus the steady population rates over the centuries!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.

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