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Top 3 things Tolkien would change if starting LOTR today
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enanito
Rohan

Feb 22 2017, 8:20pm

Post #1 of 27 (2353 views)
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Top 3 things Tolkien would change if starting LOTR today Can't Post

This is likely partly objective, and partly subjective. I'm no Tolkien scholar, so I have no personal insight into this beyond what I've read on these boards. I've seen numerous references to how Tolkien, throughout the years, directly changed his legendarium. Likewise, how Tolkien wrote about various aspects of the legendarium that he was conflicted about, or how he had multiple versions of the same event or tale.

So this is not "the top 3 things I wish Tolkien would have done differently", but rather our view on what we feel Tolkien might have considered the most important changes to make if starting the LOTR from the beginning again. Could be something major, or something relatively minor to us but major to Tolkien (so if you think that details of Durin's Folk in the Appendices would be one of the 3 most-important-changes, no problem, as long as you justify why!). It could be a major thematic change, better correlation with the greater world of Arda, or a specific change to a specific character or a specific event.

Many will reference Tolkien's letters, it will be interesting to see if there's any kind of consensus. But I'm hoping that even those who haven't read HoME can also give their opinions on what they think Tolkien might like to do differently if starting from scratch.

So give your list of the Top 3, and if possible, please state why you think these would rise to the top of the list.


squire
Half-elven


Feb 22 2017, 9:42pm

Post #2 of 27 (2292 views)
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Can I ask what you mean by "starting today"? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's always interesting to talk about how Tolkien wrote his masterpiece.

But in this kind of "alternate time line" speculation, are we supposing:
  1. That Tolkien published The Hobbit in the 1930s, but then did not start his sequel until (magically, since he'd be dead by now) 2017?

  2. Or are we supposing that he published LotR in the 1950s, but was (again magically) driven to rewrite it as a kind of fully revised edition in 2017?

  3. In the 2017 of our professor's picking up the pen (so to speak) is he living in a world where medieval-themed fantasy epics are as rare as they were in 1939, since without LotR to launch the industry it's been all science fiction, all the time?

  4. Or did some other author or authors launch the genre back in the 1950s and 60s from their own imaginations (since there was no LotR in existence) and Tolkien must now in 2017 decide whether he wishes to write in an existing genre with whose premises he may or may not agree?

  5. Should we speculate that he is not just revising his 1950s version, but is revising it in full awareness of the massive merchandising and film universes that his inadvertent sale of the rights back in the 1960s has since fueled?

  6. As he begins this new book, has he in the meantime completed The Silmarillion as a coherent set of narratives?

  7. Has he published The Silmarillion, based on his success as the author of the famous Hobbit?

  8. And how did it do? Has there been, instead of a massive LotR film and merchandise franchise, an immense Silmarillion output instead, and his attempt at this point to write a 'new Hobbit' is to be thought of as his reaction to all that?
Obviously we could have fun with any of these scenarios, and I expect we will. But I do wonder if we shouldn't identify more clearly which one we're talking about?



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Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 22 2017, 10:14pm

Post #3 of 27 (2287 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

1. There probably be a whole lot more "Elvish":

I should have preferred to write in 'Elvish'. But, of course, such a work as The Lord of the Rings has been edited and only as much 'language' has been left in as I thought would be stomached by readers. (I now find that many would have liked more.)
-Letter #165


2. The book would doubtless be at least twice as long:

The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short.
-Forward to the Second Edition


3. And finally he'd be subject to lots of complaints from Jackson Scholars that the book wasn't faithful to the films.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


enanito
Rohan

Feb 23 2017, 4:33am

Post #4 of 27 (2250 views)
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Mostly #2 (but really only because I hadn't considered all those other ideas!) [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel as Bilbo must have felt when he answered Gandalf with "All of them at once" -- Bilbo had started a simple conversation, and here comes Gandalf with a lot more than what he had expected!

I believe your supposition #2 is what best captures my OP:
2) Or are we supposing that he published LotR in the 1950s, but was (again magically) driven to rewrite it as a kind of fully revised edition in 2017?
Basically, if Mr. Tolkien had done a Rip Van Winkle and instead of passing away, simply slept until the year 2017, and upon waking decides he is going to write LOTR once more.

So it's our current universe, with Christopher's additions, PJ's movies, and the like.

Now... that's not to say that this is any more interesting than the other alternatives you posit. Those definitely pique my interest, we'll see if others decide to follow those lines of thought!


noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 23 2017, 7:05pm

Post #5 of 27 (2218 views)
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And, of course there's a ninth Rider to the original question [In reply to] Can't Post

9. Tolkien' lifetime, and the growth of fantasy as a genre all happens say 60 years later than it really did. So LOTR Iis just published (Return finished in 2015). Hobbit, was published in 1997 (is that still the year in which JK Rowling's Harry Potter series debuts?) Sil. Is still in progress, and nobody has pipped Tolkien to it.
(I think this is different from squires 8: but I'm very tired right now, so sorry if this is making me inattentive).

This scenario is about the effect of contemporary events on a work and on its reception. Is it essentially timeless, and has different applicablties according to when it is read? Or is it much more a product of its time?

One biographical difference would be that Tolkien would presumably have been born in 1952, and if we continue to imagine him as British he would not have been conscripted to fight in a world war.

It's a very interesting thing to think about (by which I mean that so far I'm more admiring the question than ready with an answer Smile )

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 23 2017, 7:11pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 23 2017, 8:12pm

Post #6 of 27 (2200 views)
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The fantasy landscape would be quite different [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if Tolkien still wrote The Hobbit in the 1930s and the book was still published in 1937, without the appearance of The Lord of the Rings in the 1950s there would be no Harry Potter; there would be no Song of Ice and Fire; no Shannara; no Belgariad; no Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. The landscape of modern literary fantasy would be very different; shaped almost entirely by Robert E. Howard; Edgar Rice Burroughs and the Lovecraft Circle. There might be a real question of whether Tolkien could even find a publisher today.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 23 2017, 9:46pm

Post #7 of 27 (2191 views)
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Excellent question; wish I had excellent replies [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Environmentalism: I think Tolkien would have stood his ground here about the evils of industry spoiling the environment. I was trying to think if might make the message stronger or softer, and really can't decide--our cities are generally cleaner, but the bees are dying off. So, I don't know. Room to argue many facts on either side.

2. Religion vs secularism: one change in Western Civ since he died in the 1970s is that the world is generally more secular, especially among the younger generation. So, assuming his Roman Catholic faith remained stalwart, would he feel nudged to make the books a little more overtly religious to try to counter this trend? My gut says he would, but subtlely so.

3. The world is linked in ways never before via the Internet, social media, etc. And publishing has changed. So, would he give us the written LOTR, the book a publisher can sell, then maintain a website where he could indulge his fans with the origins of all his character names and stories about the cats of Queen Beruthiel? And, wouldn't we demand it?

Those are some possible changes. I like the ones Darkstone cited,and he can actually source them. :) I'm purely speculative on this one.


enanito
Rohan

Feb 23 2017, 9:54pm

Post #8 of 27 (2190 views)
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If we had a longer book... [In reply to] Can't Post

... do we have an idea of what principal additions might be made? It could be that Tolkien felt the story-line had been too compressed, leaving out essential events in the interest of condensing things down.

Or it could be that the same basic events would occur, but described in much more detail (and considering the quality of detail in the existing descriptions, I can't even imagine improvements!).

Would characters appear that have been left out from previous drafts? Or possibly side characters getting a more central role in events?

Or just a lot more Elvish songs and poems? :)


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 23 2017, 10:57pm

Post #9 of 27 (2182 views)
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Hopefully lots more hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post

...I am personally enamoured of hobbits as such, and can contemplate them eating and making their rather fatuous jokes indefinitely...
-Letter #31

But I suspect he'd sneak in lots more of The Sil.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 24 2017, 9:54am

Post #10 of 27 (2149 views)
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Arwen [In reply to] Can't Post

seems to have been a bit late in occurring to Tolkien during the writing of LotR (based on what I've read here - I'm not familiar with the early drafts myself). So maybe he would try to integrate her story more openly into the main narrative. To do this he would have to make her a more active participant, maybe echoing more of Lúthien's behaviour in helping her lover perform the task her father has set him. Perhaps she'd even turn up at Helm's Deep!

Cool

I'm not saying I'd approve - I like Arwen as the mystery she is. In fact, I have a feeling that if Tolkien attempted any rewrite at all, he'd be on a hiding to nothing. He'd just reignite all those problems he had in the first place:
“It is perhaps not possible in a long tale to please everybody at all points, nor to displease everybody at the same points; for I find from the letters that I have received that the passages or chapters that are to some a blemish are all by others specially approved. ”
Only this time, it would be his biggest fans, the ones who love the book they know, who would find it hardest to reconcile themselves to any changes at all!

If he did the rewrite just to please himself, that would be different. But Darkstone has already covered that - Tolkien thought LotR was "too short", and would have bulked it up with more Silmarillion legends and/or hobbit banter, probably.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 24 2017, 1:45pm

Post #11 of 27 (2137 views)
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More about The Hobbit, actually [In reply to] Can't Post

I recall in Unfinished Tales that the original LOTR was going to have a lengthy passage of Gandalf spending time in a nice mansion in Minas Tirith with the hobbits after Sauron's defeat, and there he would recount to them his "chance meeting, as they say in Bree" with Thorin which set in motion the mission to kill Smaug, which was one of Gandalf's big chess moves, as he explains to them, to prevent Smaug being used to destroy Rivendell during the War of the Ring.

He commented that they would have won the war in the south, but have returned home to ruin, and there would be no Queen in Gondor (Arwen being dragon BBQ).

All of this turned out to be too much material that slowed the story down, so he removed it (I think the publisher made him). But let's extrapolate from that, and assume he'd be putting in a lot more embellishment into LOTR at various points, bringing in more stories from The Silmarillion especially, as others have pointed out, but also more explanations and more connections to The Hobbit.

One thing to consider--there is an anti-Bombadil crowd among Tolkien fans. Would he remove that chapter and put it on the web to please them? How beholden would he be to his fans? I actually don't think he'd try to accommodate everyone in the negative--removing what they don't like. But I think he'd likely add more where people wanted more, such as saying more about the history of Hollin while the Fellowship traveled there.


squire
Half-elven


Feb 24 2017, 2:52pm

Post #12 of 27 (2138 views)
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He might feel the need to be more clear about a few misunderstood details here and there [In reply to] Can't Post

It certainly seems likely that Tolkien would take advantage of a chance to revise The Lord of the Rings in the 2010’s, to tie it more closely to The Silmarillion and (possibly) to indulge his fondness for the hobbits by expanding their roles even more. But I wonder if he wouldn’t also make some other changes.
When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: “Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen!” His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk. No others that dwelt in the wide world had voices so fair to hear. But there seemed to be a note of haste or fear in his call, and they saw that he was now speaking quickly and urgently to Strider.
Soon Strider beckoned to them, and the hobbits left the bushes and hurried down to the Road. ‘This is Glorfindel, who dwells in the house of Elrond,’ said Strider.
‘Greetings, my lady,’ said Frodo, bowing low. Sam was agape at the shining beauty of the fair Elven rider.
Strider corrected them, ‘Nay, Rivendell is not so bereft of its lordly strength yet. Elven-women do not ride abroad to seek out perils, not even those daughters of Luthien the fair and brave who yet grace the house of Elrond.”
Frodo was abashed. ‘Your pardon, my lord,’ he said, but Glorfindel merely smiled.
‘Hail, and well met at last!’ said the Elf-lord to Frodo. ‘I was sent from Rivendell to look for you. We feared that you were in danger upon the road.’ –
LotR I.12 (3rd ed.)

‘ “That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters,” said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it.
‘They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars. There was no struggle – I could not have overcome him in his stronghold and so I did not foolishly choose a path of pain. There is no descent save by a narrow stair of many thousand steps, and the valley below seems far away.’ –
LotR II.2 (3rd ed.)

His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings of cloud–dark and fearsome but shadow only, thin and churning like a gathering storm. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and the shadowy sable clouds that seemed like wings were spread from wall to wall, filled with a crackling power like lightning but without weight, lacking sinew or web; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished, mocked by those nightmarish shades that were never wings and could avail it nought in its fall. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. ‘Fly, you fools, for it cannot, nor I!’ he cried, and was gone. –
LotR II.5 (3rd ed.)

‘It is a gift that I bring you from the Lady of Rivendell,’ answered Halbarad. ‘She wrought it in secret, and long was the making. But she also sends word to you: "The days now are short. Either our hope cometh, or all hopes end. Therefore I send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well, Elfstone! I die not, and leave not, and despair not. I and my father wait for thee, in trust and love, in hope of a new Age to come, by your valor against the chances of fate."‘
And Aragorn said: ‘Now I know what you bear. Bear it still for me a while! Now more than ever will I strive to redeem my kin and heritage, and renew the kingdom of our common fathers. I am no king of men while this war is fought, but I may yet be if all among us remain true.’ And he turned and looked away to the North under the great stars, and then he fell silent and spoke no more while the night’s journey lasted. –
LotR V.2 (3rd ed.)

‘Much must be risked in war,’ said Denethor. ‘Cair Andros is manned and no more can be sent so far. But I will not yield the River and the Pelennor unfought - not if there is a captain here who has still the courage to do his lord’s will.’
Then all were silent, but at length Faramir said: ‘I do not oppose your will, sire. Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead - if you command it.’
‘I do so,’ said Denethor.
‘Then farewell!’ said Faramir. ‘But if I should return, think better of me!’
‘That depends on the manner of your return,’ said Denethor. ‘But I do not expect folly, nor a leader who spends the lives of his men in vain. Recall all your training, my final son and captain. Conserve your force, and strike where the foe is weakest. Courage alone does not make a hero, and knights are ill-advised who openly charge a fortified line. Buy time, for we need it, but pay a wise price.”
Gandalf it was that last spoke to Faramir ere he rode east. ‘Heed your sire, and tend to his counsel. Fight as he advised, and do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness,’ he said. ‘You will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end. Farewell!’ –
LotR V.4 (3rd ed.)
So perhaps some things might need to be made clearer for a new generation of readers.

But as for additional scenes or extensions to the book, we know that Tolkien said in his second Foreword that “the book is too short” in his opinion and his fans’. I have thought that he was being ironic, complimenting himself for writing a very long book that is hard to put down and sad to finish. In fact we now know that the book grew organically as he wrote it, becoming longer and longer with each new inspiration as to where the story was going.

Occasionally he did cut some language or text – those chatty hobbit scenes on the walk to Maggot’s farm have been preserved in The History of Middle-earth, just as fatuous as he said they were, and Merry’s ‘herb lore’ speech to Theoden was removed to the Prologue – but the HoME volumes show us it’s not as if he wrote whole chapters than his publisher or friends convinced him to remove. His argument in those days was to keep it as long as it was, not to make it longer. The appendices are certainly full of additional information about Middle-earth and the war of the Ring; but little of that is in narrative prose format, and he put those parts in the appendices exactly because he perceived that they tended to detract from the flow of the main tale.

Still, it’s an interesting question – how would Tolkien revise his work, years after it became not a self-indulgent experiment in form but the seminal work of an entire literary genre, whose later products inevitably reflect on the original work’s strengths and weaknesses?



squire online:
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


enanito
Rohan

Feb 24 2017, 6:44pm

Post #13 of 27 (2106 views)
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Clarity, vs a "Book of Lost Tales" [In reply to] Can't Post

If Tolkien were given a fresh canvas, would he still treat LoTR as a 'Book of Lost Tales'? I think I've read that Tolkien didn't overly mind slight gaps in the tales or minor contradictions, within the conceit that we're reading from the Red Book of Westmarch, and similar blurring occurs to all true events that are passed down over time into legend.

I'm just wondering how much weight we think he might give to clearing up misconceptions, and how much he might feel they were integral to giving it the feel of authentic history with its imperfections?

And in the spirit of the O.P., would this be something that would be in 'Tolkien's Top 3', or would he give this less import than other aspects during a re-writing?


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 25 2017, 1:13pm

Post #14 of 27 (2067 views)
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Once you start editing... [In reply to] Can't Post

... where do you stop?


"Your pardon, my lord," said Frodo, "but with that hair and robe you do look, well, like you might belong to the fair sex as well as the fair folk." Glorfindel smiled thinly and said no more. "Looks like you might have put your foot in it there, Mr. Frodo," said Sam. "But I imagine he'll put it down to you not being at your best, as you might say."


"The took me and set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc. Luckily Saruman had plenty of minions on hand to take me up those stairs, otherwise I might have been faced with a struggle as Saruman forced me up there by means of magic alone."


"Fly you fools, for it cannot, and nor can I!" he cried, and was gone. "What did he mean by that?" muttered Sam. "I still don't know if those shadow wings were real or not, because Gandalf told us to fly and we definitely don't have wings..."


"The days are now short. Either our hope cometh, or all hope's end. Therefore I send thee what I have prepared for thee. Daddy doesn't know about it, but really, how can he expect me to obey him now that I'm 3000 years old? So maybe it is cheating for me to help you by sending the Elfstone and the banner, but Granny agrees with me - behind every successful man there's bound to be at least one or two females quietly getting him where he needs to be!"


"Then farewell," said Faramir. "But if I should return, think better of me!"
"That depends on the manner of your return,’ said Denethor. ‘But I do not expect folly..."
"Oh, in that case, I think it might be best if we follow the advice of all the other commanders and wait for the Rohirrim, then, rather than try your hopeless, face-saving scheme."


Where would it all end?

Cool

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Morthoron
Gondor


Feb 26 2017, 4:47am

Post #15 of 27 (2025 views)
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I don't think you'd get the same books.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien worldview was informed by the Catholic Church, his experiences growing up in Edwardian England, his service in WWII and his philological studies. Remove any of those social and educational underpinnings and you would not have the same books, if you would have them at all.

Let's say that, rather than being born in 1892, he was born in 1952, a full sixty years later, which would make him 63 in 2015 (he was 63 or so when The Return of the King was published), which would mean he would have published The Hobbit in or around the year 1997.

Play with the years if you'd like (more or less to whatever year you'd want the books published), but chances are he wouldn't have been a soldier, and even less likely would he have fought for Britain in a war. He would have grown up in Post-WWII Britain, and been a teenager in the late 60s / early 70s. He'd have listened to Cream, Jethro Tull, The Beatles, The Who, Pink Floyd and The Rolling Stones. He probably would have read Roald Dahl, Anthony Burgess, Kerouac, Golding, Ginsberg, Orwell, and sci-fi from Herbert, Dick, Asimov and Heinlein. He might've even read fantasies like T.H. White's The Once and Future King, Michael Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone or H.P Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. He would have grown up watching TV and going to movies (most likely Hammer horror films on Saturdays in the late 50s, American black and white sci-fi films and Japanese Godzilla movies).

As far as Catholicism, he may or may not have been religious. Given the more secular allure of the 60s and 70s, and the growing antipathy towards religion, as an intellectual he most likely would not have been a fervent Catholic going to Oxford in the later 70s (if he went to Oxford at all).

So, Tolkien would have experienced none of the societal, religious or educational background which made The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion what they were. His entire experience in a Post-WWII nuclear world and coming of age by the end of the 1960s would most likely preclude anything that made the books what they were. Therefore, this is an interesting but fruitless exercise. Because Tolkien would end up being Peter Jackson.

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



squire
Half-elven


Feb 26 2017, 2:40pm

Post #16 of 27 (1983 views)
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New Zealand's a long way from 1970s Oxford and Cambridge [In reply to] Can't Post

You're perfectly right to remind us that the gap of time between Tolkien and his equivalent persona in our own era is wide. But not everything has changed in England between then and now. Sure, it's a small chance such a man could emerge, but then Tolkien himself was a pretty odd duck in his own time - the other kids weren't checking the Kalevala out of the library and teaching themselves Finnish for fun in 1910, any more than they are today.

So there's no need to completely discount the possibility of a young man in postwar Britain becoming interested in medieval languages and literature, attending the elite prep schools and high academic towers of Oxford and Cambridge which were and are still in business, becoming a professional scholar, and writing fantasy fiction and scholarship that draws on the intersection of his field and his literary preferences.

I'd say it's an interesting and not entirely fruitless exercise. Our Tolkien of today, still a nerd to be sure, would not be a media child and horror film director from the antipodes nerd like Jackson, but an 'Empire orphan' and St. Edwards and Oxbridge-educated professor of medieval philology (who writes science fiction and fantasy on the side) nerd, like Tom Shippey.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 26 2017, 11:43pm

Post #17 of 27 (1946 views)
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Here's a biggie: more female characters? [In reply to] Can't Post

Back to your OP. Wouldn't Tolkien feel today the same pressure that Jackson felt with the movies to balance the genders more? I'm not saying 50-50, obviously, put playing them up more. So we'd get more Arwen, maybe more Galadriel, more Rosie Cotton--well, I'm following the movies, huh?

I don't think he'd invent a Tauriel character, so I'm not totally under the influence of the movies. But what if he made Merry & Pippin female? Or, to really shake things up, does Gandalf have to be a man, or could the wizards have been witches?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 27 2017, 12:46am

Post #18 of 27 (1932 views)
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Ladies of the Fellowship? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf was already in The Hobbit so I don't see him switching genders. But why couldn't Gloin have had a daughter instead of a son? The revelation of her gender might have taken place during the quest. Might Fatty Bolger have been replaced with Rose Cotton? I don't really see Merry, Pippin or Sam being turned into Hobbit-women (Samantha Gamgee?). SImilarly, I don't see Tolkien creating female versions of Aragorn, Boromir or Faramir (maybe--just maybe--that last one). Instead of Legolas, might we have had the daughter of the Elvenking? Maybe since her brother might be needed at home to help defend the Woodland Realm.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


squire
Half-elven


Feb 27 2017, 3:16am

Post #19 of 27 (1922 views)
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Would "Tolkien" feel such pressure? [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't seem like Tolkien. Everyone who worked with him noted how much he resisted pressure to conform or meet others' expectations about his creative work. He did respond to comments about technical imperfections, or logical inconsistencies, so it's not like he couldn't understand criticism. I just can't imagine him adding female characters, or giving the existing ones more to do, even today. I especially can't conceive of him changing existing male characters to female ones! As he put it, that doesn't work even for gods and goddesses.

Speculation about which characters in LotR 'ought to be' female to make the story more up to date would seem to fit better in a post about "How would you rewrite LotR in 2017?", not "How would Tolkien revise LotR in 2017?"



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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noWizardme
Half-elven


Feb 27 2017, 2:47pm

Post #20 of 27 (1878 views)
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"We need a strong female character - and one of the hobbits has to die..." [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree - I can't see Tolkien adapting his work heavily according to the current formula for a successful novel. As squire has pointed out elsewhere, Tolkien was eccentric for his own time, and so if we wish we could imagine him the same kind of eccentric now: interested in telling his tales the way they seemed to want to go, rather than attempting to do whatever was expected to please the contemporary audience.

But then there is the complex and mysterious area of how a writer's life experiences shape their work. For some writers that's pretty obvious, but for others something happens that I've seen called 'composting': specific bits of matter ferment away to produce a rich, fertile matter from which the story can grow. Finding the influence of a specific life event could be as difficult as finding a specific apple core. So my guess is that if Tolkien was that much younger so as to be finishing up LOTR now, the work would come out different in some way - but I couldn't guess how.

Yet another interesting strand is how the LOTR manuscript would be received now. It was published because a small publisher was willing to take a financial risk on something so odd and I wonder how that would go now. Assuming it made it to the shops, what would its first readers be making of it?

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 27 2017, 3:22pm

Post #21 of 27 (1874 views)
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Nope [In reply to] Can't Post

The only criticism that annoyed me was one that it 'contained no religion' (and 'no Women', but that does not matter, and is not true anyway).
-Letter #165

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 27 2017, 5:08pm

Post #22 of 27 (1850 views)
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Folk singing legends: Tollers and the Tea Club and Barrovian Society [In reply to] Can't Post

We might not get any books at all! It’s been said that much of Tolkien’s writings were influenced by his wartime experiences, and indeed, like many writers of that generation, were attempts to come to terms with them. (For example, no Somme, no Dead Marshes.)

Due to penicillin his father wouldn’t have died of rheumatic fever and due to insulin his mother wouldn’t have died of diabetes, so he wouldn’t be an orphan sent off to a Edgbaston boarding house so he wouldn’t have met Edith, so no Luthien or Arwen.

By the 1970s ecumenical dialogue was pretty well established between the Catholic Church and the Church of England, so he wouldn't have faced near as much anti-Catholicism.

As for Edith, by the 1970s the stigma of illegitimacy in British society was very much lessened so her personality may have been much less reserved. And due to the increase of professional musical opportunities for British women since the end of WWII, she may well have been able to have pursued her dream of becoming a professional pianist. So if indeed Tolkien had met her, it may have been a much less reserved and much more independent woman.

As what Tolkien *might* have written:

What I meant, and thought Chris meant, and am almost sure you meant, was that the TCBS had been granted some spark of fire – certainly as a body if not singly – that was destined to kindle a new light, or, what is the same thing, rekindle an old light in the world; that the TCBS was destined to testify for God and Truth in a more direct way even than by laying down its several lives in this war (which is for all the evil of our own side with large view good against evil).
-Letter #5

So perhaps folk songs?

The mirror on my wall
Casts an image dark and small
But I’m not sure at all it’s my reflection.
I am blinded by the light
Of God and truth and right…

-Paul Simon, Flowers Never Bend in the Rainfall

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 27 2017, 5:09pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 27 2017, 6:09pm

Post #23 of 27 (1839 views)
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Right, but that wasn't in 2017.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 27 2017, 7:08pm

Post #24 of 27 (1831 views)
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The Sil and LOTR already pass the Bechdel Test [In reply to] Can't Post

One example from the Sil:

And at times Melian and Galadriel would speak together of Valinor and the bliss of old; but beyond the dark hour of the death of the Trees Galadriel would not go, but ever fell silent. And on a time Melian said: 'There is some woe that lies upon you and your kin. That I can see in you, but all else is hidden from me; for by no vision or thought can I perceive anything that passed or passes in the West: a shadow lies over all the land of Aman, and reaches far out over the sea. Why will you not tell me more?'
'For that woe is past,' said Galadriel; 'and I would take what joy is here left, untroubled by memory. And maybe there is woe enough yet to come, though still hope may seem bright.'

-Chapter 15, Of the Noldor in Beleriand

Even LOTR passes the original Bechdel Test, though it doesn't pass the later stricter version as neither Ioreth nor Eowyn talk to *named* female characters.

Of course The Hobbit doesn't pass at all as I recall.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


enanito
Rohan

Feb 27 2017, 8:31pm

Post #25 of 27 (1815 views)
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Could vs would, wants vs needs, and where's the focus [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no doubt that possibly old-school Tolkien, transplanted into today's world, might be amenable to certain 'modern' modes of thinking. Not in a "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" sense where historical features amusingly interact with modern culture, but I see no reason why he couldn't include a greater female influence in LoTR. As all imagining goes, it's easy enough for me to imagine Tolkien considering these avenues of story development.

However, I have difficulty imagining Tolkien feeling that this would rise to a major focus level, compared to other aspects of LoTR that he would feel required major attention during a re-write. It seems to me that on the whole, he would feel that his own work is justified in being what it is -- and that it contains the right mix of characters, because in essence that's how the story wrote itself (in his mind). So not that Tolkien would downplay its importance, but rather just not see it as applicable in this particular case.

And I completely fail in trying to imagine Tolkien growing up in the world of today. Any individual's life is way too complicated to ascribe to a certain state of society, since we all have grown up in (more-or-less) the same world, and we're all wildly different. Hence I simply avoid that and try and see how the Tolkien we know (at least to the extent possible) might have altered LoTR if he started again today.

But I like the various thoughts on this subject, it's an interesting line of thinking.

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