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It's time for some BS!
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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 14 2017, 1:05am

Post #1 of 57 (3214 views)
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It's time for some BS! Can't Post

Still a Book Spoiler... but there's a big day coming up on the 14th (tomorrow), and I wanted to post part of the events as Book spoilers for the full effect of this pivotal day for the Fellowship. Besides, I can't resist anything written about Sam... for a moment of Tolkien-zen.

From the Mirror of Galadriel: The Fellowship of the Ring


..."Sam climbed up on the foot of the pedestal and leaned over the basin. The water looked hard and dark. Stars were reflected in it.
...'There's only stars, as I thought.' ...Then he gave a low gasp, for the stars went out. As if a dark veil had been withdrawn, the Mirror grew grey, and then clear. There was sun shining, and the branches of trees were waving and tossing in the wind. But before Sam could make up his mind what it was that he saw, the light faded; and now he thought he saw Frodo with a pale face lying fast asleep under a great dark cliff. Then he seemed to see himself going along a dim passage, and climbing an endless winding stair... ...he was looking urgently for something, but what it was he did not know. Like a dream the vision shifted and went back, and he saw the trees again. But this time they were not so close, and he could see what was going on: they were not waving in the wind, they were falling, crashing to the ground.
...'Hi!' cried Sam in an outraged voice. 'There's that Ted Sandyman a-cutting down trees as he shouldn't. They didn't ought to be felled: it's that avenue beyond the Mill that shades the road to Bywater. I wish I could get at Ted, and I'd fell him!'
...But now Sam noticed that the Old Mill had vanished, and a large red-brick building was being put up where it had stood... ...There was a tall red chimney nearby. Black smoke seemed to cloud the surface of the Mirror.
...'There's some devilry at work in the Shire... ...Elrond knew what he was about when he wanted to send Mr. Merry back.' Then suddenly Sam gave a cry and sprang away. 'I can't stay here,' he said wildly. 'I must go home. They've dug up Bagshot Row, and there's the poor old gaffer going down the Hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home!'
...'You cannot go home alone,' said the Lady. 'You did not wish to go home without your master before you looked in the Mirror, and yet you knew that evil things might well be happening in the Shire... ...the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.'
...Sam sat on the ground and put his head in his hands. 'I wish I had never come here, and I don't want to see no more magic,' he said and fell silent. After a moment he spoke again thickly, as if struggling with tears. 'No, I'll go home by the long road with Mr. Frodo, or not at all,' he said. 'But I hope I do get back some day. If what I've seen turns out true, somebody's going to catch it hot!'"



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 14 2017, 5:27am

Post #2 of 57 (3102 views)
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"You cannot go home alone." [In reply to] Can't Post

Why not?

And is that line in the movie?

It reminds me of Frodo in the movie telling Sam to "go home" when they were much farther from home--and there Sam actually starts to do so.

There are four lights.

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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 14 2017, 6:15am

Post #3 of 57 (3097 views)
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TIME - February 14 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 14, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The Mirror of Galadriel.
(from the appendices)
..."'Do you now wish to look, Frodo?' said the Lady Galadriel. 'You did not wish to see Elf-magic and were content.'
...'Do you advise me to look?' asked Frodo.
...'No... ...I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor. You may learn something, and whether what you see be fair or evil, that may be profitable, and yet it may not. Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here. Do as you will!'
...'I will look,' said Frodo, and he climbed on the pedestal and bent over the dark water. At once the Mirror cleared and he saw a twilit land. Mountains loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky. A long grey road wound back out of sight. Far away a figure came slowly down the road, faint and small at first, but growing larger and clearer as it approached. Suddenly Frodo realized that it reminded him of Gandalf. He almost called aloud the wizard's name, and then he saw that the figure was clothed not in grey but... ...in a white that shone faintly in the dusk; and in its hand there was a white staff. The head was so bowed that he could see no face... ...Doubt came into Frodo's mind: was this a vision of Gandalf on one of his many lonely journeys long ago, or was it Saruman?
...The vision now changed. Brief and small but very vivid he caught a glimpse of Bilbo walking restlessly about his room....
...Then there was a pause, and after it many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved. The mist cleared and he saw a sight which he had never seen before but knew at once: the Sea... ...Then he saw... ...the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist; and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights. It vanished, and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw away.
...But suddenly the Mirror went altogether dark... ... In the black abyss there appeared a single Eye that slowly grew, until it filled nearly all the Mirror. So terrible was it that Frodo stood rooted, unable to cry out or to withdraw his gaze. The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing.
...Then the Eye began to rove, searching this way and that; and Frodo knew with certainty and horror that among the many things that it sought he himself was one. But he also knew that it could not see him—not yet, not unless he willed it. The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy... ...and his head was dragged downwards. The Mirror seemed to be growing hot and curls of steam were rising from the water. He was slipping forward.
...'Do not touch the water!' said the Lady Galadriel softly. The vision faded, and Frodo found that he was looking at the cool stars twinkling in the silver basin. He stepped back shaking all over and looked at the Lady.
...'I know what it was that you last saw,' she said; 'for that is also in my mind... ...I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!'
...She lifted up her white arms, and spread out her hands towards the East in a gesture of rejection and denial. Eärendil, the Evening Star, most beloved of the Elves, shone clear above... ...Its rays glanced upon a ring about her finger; it glittered like polished gold overlaid with silver light, and a white stone in it twinkled as if the Even-star had come down to rest upon her hand. Frodo gazed at the ring with awe; for suddenly it seemed to him that he understood.
...'Yes,' she said, divining his thought, 'it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye... ...in the land of Lórien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.
...'He suspects, but he does not know—not yet. Do you not see now wherefore your coming is to us the footstep of Doom? For if you fail, then we are laid bare to the Enemy. Yet if you succeed, then our power is diminished, and Lothlórien will fade, and the tides of Time will sweep it away. We must depart into the West, or dwindle to a rustic folk of dell and caves, slowly to forget and to be forgotten...
'...And what do you want?' he said at last.
...'That what should be shall be,' she answered. 'The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the Sea, and their regret is undying and cannot ever wholly be assuaged. Yet they will cast all away rather than submit to Sauron: for they know him now. For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task. Yet I could wish, were it of any avail, that the One Ring had never been wrought, or had remained for ever lost.'
...'You are wise and fearless and fair, Lady Galadriel,' said Frodo. 'I will give you the One Ring, if you ask for it. It is too great a matter for me.'
...Galadriel laughed with a sudden clear laugh. 'Wise the Lady Galadriel may be... ...yet here she has met her match in courtesy. Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. You begin to see with a keen eye. I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer...
...'...You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountains! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!'
...She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark...
...'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.'"

2. Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.
(from the appendices)
..."'Naked I was sent back—for a brief time, until my task was done. And naked I lay upon the mountain-top. The tower behind was crumbled into dust, the window gone; the ruined stair was choked with burned and broken stone. I was alone, forgotten, without escape upon the hard horn of the world... ...I lay staring upward, while the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a life-age of the earth. Faint to my ears came the gathered rumour of all lands: the springing and the dying, the song and the weeping, and the slow everlasting groan of over-burdened stone....'"

February 14, 3020 (S.R. 1420)
(not in the appendices-no text)
The Shire continues to heal the hurts to rick, cot and tree caused by Sharkey.



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 14 2017, 6:45am

Post #4 of 57 (3097 views)
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*eyebrows shoot up* [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh! I never noticed that before! It's not a line found in the movie as Sam doesn't venture the mirror with Frodo... or even in a different use, IIRC.

Now I'm fascinated with the rest of what Galadriels says:


Quote

..the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide of deeds.'



She says some of the things seen in the mirror won't happen UNLESS the one seeing the vision changes what they're doing and tries to prevent what they saw. Am I reading that right?

So she tells SAM he cannot return home alone... because if he does, the vision will happen? (Which it does) Although she first says not all have YET come to pass. Makes me think the visions will most likely come to pass.

Oh geez... you got me with this one!!! *ponders some more*



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We have been there and back again.


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6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 15 2017, 11:17am

Post #5 of 57 (3067 views)
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TIME - February 15 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 15, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The Fellowship's stay in Lothlórien ends.
(not from the appendices)
..."In the morning, as they were beginning to pack their slender goods, Elves that could speak their tongue came to them and brought them many gifts of food and clothing for the journey. The food was mostly in the form of very thin cakes, made of a meal that was baked a light brown on the outside, and inside was the colour of cream. Gimli took up one of the cakes and looked at it with a doubtful eye.
...'Cram,' he said under his breath, as he broke off a crisp corner and nibbled at it. His expression quickly changed, and he ate all the rest of the cake with relish.
...'No more, no more!' cried the Elves laughing. 'You have eaten enough already for a long day's march.'
...'I thought it was only a kind of cram, such as the Dale-men make for journeys in the wild...'
...'...So it is,' they answered. 'But we call it lembas or waybread, and it is more strengthening than any food made by Men, and it is more pleasant that cram....'
...'Indeed it is,' said Gimli. 'Why, it is better that the honey-cakes of the Beornings, and that is great praise... ... You are kindly hosts!'
...'All the same, we bid you spare the food,' they said. 'Eat a little at a time, and only at need. For these things are given to serve you when all else fails. The cakes will keep sweet for many many days, if they are unbroken and left in their leaf-wrappings... ...One will keep a traveller on his feet for a day of long labour, even if he be one of the tall Men of Minas Tirith.'
...The Elves next unwrapped and gave to each of the Company... ...a hood and cloak, made according to his size, of the light but warm silken stuff that the Galadrim wove. It was hard to say of what colour they were: grey with the hue of twilight under the trees they seemed to be; and yet if they were moved, or set in another light, they were green as shadowed leaves, or brown as fallow fields by night, dusk-silver as water under the stars. Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like green leaf veined with silver.
...'Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
...'I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the elves. 'They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land... ...Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lórien that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make... ...they should serve you well: they are light to wear, and warm enough or cool enough at need. And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees. You are indeed high in the favour of the Lady! For she herself and her maidens wove this stuff; and never before have we clad strangers in the garb of our own people....'

......Three small grey boats had been made ready for the travellers... ...they added also coils of rope, three to each boat. Slender they looked, but strong, silken to the touch, grey of hue like the elven-cloaks.
...'What are these?' asked Sam, handling one that lay on the green-sward.
...'Ropes indeed!' answered an Elf from the boats. 'Never travel far without a rope! And one that is long and strong and light. Such are these. They may be a help in many needs.'
...'You don't need to tell me that!' said Sam. 'I came without any, and I've been worried ever since. But I was wondering what these were made of, knowing a bit about rope-making: it's in the family as you might say.'
...'They are made of hithlain... ...but there is no time now to instruct you in the art of their making. Had we known that this craft delighted you, we could have taught you much. But now alas! unless you should at some time return hither, you must be content with our gift. May it serve you well!'"

[continued tomorrow]



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 16 2017, 1:58pm

Post #6 of 57 (3047 views)
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TIME - February 15 continued [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 15th, 3019 (S.R. 1419) (continued)
1. Farewell to Lórien.
(from the appendices)
..."'We have drunk the cup of parting,' she said, 'and the shadows fall between us. But before you go, I have brought in my ship gifts which the Lord and Lady of the Galadrim now offer you in memory of Lothlórien.' Then she called to each in turn.
...'Here is the gift of Celeborn and Galadriel to the leader of your Company,' she said to Aragorn, and she gave him a sheath that had been made to fit his sword. It was overlaid with a tracery of flowers and leaves wrought of silver and gold, and on it were set in elven-runes formed of many gems the name Andúril and the lineage of the sword.
...'The blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat... ...Then she lifted from her lap a great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outspread wings... '...This stone I gave to Celebrían my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope. In this hour take the name that was foretold for you, Elessar, the Elfstone of the house of Elendil!'
...Then Aragorn took the stone and pinned the brooch upon his breast, and those who saw him wondered; for they had not marked before how tall and kingly he stood, and it seemed to them that many years of toil had fallen from his shoulders....
......she turned then to Boromir, and to him she gave a belt of gold; and to Merry and Pippin she gave small silver belts, each with a clasp wrought like a golden flower. To Legolas she gave a bow such as the Galadrim used... ...strung with a string of elf-hair. With it went a quiver of arrows.
...'For you little gardener and lover of trees,' she said to Sam, 'I have only a small gift.' She put into his hand a little box of plain grey wood, unadorned save for a single silver rune upon the lid. 'Here is set G for Galadriel... ...but also it may stand for garden in your tongue. In this box there is earth from my orchard, and such blessing as Galadriel has still to bestow is upon it... ... if you keep it and see your home again at last, then perhaps it may reward you. Though you should find all barren and laid waste, there will be few gardens in Middle-earth that will bloom like your garden, if you sprinkle this earth there. Then you may remember Galadriel, and catch a glimpse far off of Lórien....'
......Sam went red to the ears and muttered something inaudible, and he clutched the box and bowed as well as he could.
...'And what gift would a Dwarf ask of the Elves?' said Galadriel, turning to Gimli.
...'None, Lady... ...It is enough for me to have seen the Lady of the Galadrim, and to have heard her gentle words.'
...'Hear all ye Elves!' she cried to those about her. 'Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious... ...you desire something that I could give? Name it, I bid you! You shall not be the only guest without a gift.'
...'There is nothing, Lady Galadriel,' said Gimli, bowing low and stammering. 'Nothing, unless it might be—unless it is permitted to ask, nay, to name a single strand of your hair, which surpasses the gold of the earth as the stars surpass the gems of the mine....'
...The Elves stirred and murmured with astonishment, and Celeborn gazed at the Dwarf in wonder, but the Lady smiled. 'It is said that the skill of the Dwarves is in their hands rather than in their tongues... ...yet that is not true of Gimli. For none have ever made to me a request so bold and yet so courteous. And how shall I refuse, since I commanded him to speak? But tell me, what would you do with such a gift?'
...'Treasure it, Lady... ...in memory of your words to me at our first meeting, and if ever I return to the smithies of my home, it shall be set in imperishable crystal to be an heirloom of my house, and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days.'
...Then the Lady unbraided one of her long tresses, and cut off three golden hairs, and laid them in Gimli's hand. 'These words shall go with the gift... ...Gimli son of Glóin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.
...'And you, Ring-bearer,' she said, turning to Frodo. 'I come to you last who are not last in my thoughts. For you have prepared this.' She held up a small crystal phial; it glittered as she moved it, and rays of white light sprang from her hand. 'In this phial... ...is caught the light of Eärendil's star, set amid the waters of my fountain. It will shine still brighter when night is about you. May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out....'
...Frodo took the phial, and for a moment as it shone between them, he saw her again standing like a queen, great and beautiful, but no longer terrible. He bowed, but found no words to say."

2. Gollum in hiding on the west bank observes the departure.
(from the appendices-no text)
...As the grey boats slipped away from the shore, Aragorn suddenly turned and looked back at the bank, scanning the shoreline. He knew their departure had not gone unnoticed. As he returned to his paddle, he saw that Frodo was also looking back at the shore.



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit

(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Feb 16 2017, 1:59pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 17 2017, 3:13am

Post #7 of 57 (3040 views)
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I think you're half right. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
She says some of the things seen in the mirror won't happen UNLESS the one seeing the vision changes what they're doing and tries to prevent what they saw. Am I reading that right?

So she tells SAM he cannot return home alone... because if he does, the vision will happen? (Which it does) Although she first says not all have YET come to pass. Makes me think the visions will most likely come to pass.


Your first paragraph is entirely correct, but it's also clear that Galadriel would not tell any member of the Fellowship what to do. She just gives them choices. And she doesn't know for sure what events will and will not happen. In fact, the destruction that Sam sees in the Shire does happen without him turning aside to try to stop it.

I think that she's saying that it is physically impossible for Sam to return home. Even if he could find the way--and remember that he can't go back through Moria, and he climbed less than half of the other side of the Redhorn Pass--the snow has only gotten deeper on the heights, the enemy is everywhere, and it's just a terribly long way to travel alone.

And going home to the Shire from the very edge of Mordor, as Sam starts to do in the movie, is more impossible still. In his notes or letters, Tolkien says that Boromir's solo journey from Minas Tirith to Rivendell is a very impressive feat. It's even farther from Minas Morgul to Hobbiton.

There are four lights.

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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 17 2017, 9:12am

Post #8 of 57 (3034 views)
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Going home [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think that she's saying that it is physically impossible for Sam to return home.

I think you must be right, not only because, as you say, the way home is impossibly difficult, but also because (as you also point out!) Galadriel doesn't give advice. So we have to assume that this is a fact, rather than an opinion.


In Reply To
And going home to the Shire from the very edge of Mordor, as Sam starts to do in the movie, is more impossible still.

Also true. But then, he doesn't go home, does he? He only sets off down the mountain. Remember that in the book too, Sam considers going home from the Pass of Cirith Ungol, after Frodo's "death":
“But what can I do? Not leave Mr. Frodo dead, unburied on the top of the mountains, and go home?”
- The Choices of Master Samwise
Could he have made it home? No. But could he have set off, in despair and loss of faith in himself? Yes indeed. Luckily, he pulls himself together and decides he must go on instead.

Which is what happens in the movie, except that it's dramatized into a scene between the two hobbits, instead of being an internal monologue of Sam alone.



They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 17 2017, 1:53pm

Post #9 of 57 (3019 views)
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TIME - February 17 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 17, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. Gwaihir bears Gandalf to Lórien.
(from the appendices)
..."'And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away.
...'"Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need," I said.
...'"A burden you have been... ...but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind."
...'"Do not let me fall!" I gasped, for I felt life in me again. "Bear me to Lothlórien!"'
...'"That indeed is the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you..."
...'Thus it was that I came to Caras Galadon and found you but lately gone. I tarried there in the ageless time of that land where days bring healing not decay. Healing I found, and I was clothed in white....'"

2. The Fellowship faces the Great River.
(not from the appendices)
..."They started again before the day was broad... ...and they let the River bear them on at its own pace, having no desire to hasten towards the perils that lay beyond, whichever course they took in the end. Aragorn let them drift with the stream as they wished, husbanding their strength against weariness to come. But he insisted that at least they should start early each day and journey on far into the evening; for he felt in his heart that time was pressing, and he feared that the Dark Lord had not been idle while they lingered in Lórien."


February 17, 3020 (S.R. 1420)
1. The Shire continues to recover from its hurts.
(not in the appendices-no text)
...Though the work of tearing down the brooding, dark buildings that had infested Hobbiton was complete, the frigid months of winter forced them to turn their attention to other needs. There was much to keep the hobbits busy while waiting out the cold season as they restored the interiors of homes and businesses marred by Sharkey's ruffians. Their work was certainly the most rewarding at the Green Dragon Inn. It took several weeks of finishing and polishing to undo the damage; but it wasn't until after testing the kegs of ale recovered from the tunnels of Michel Delving when it was unanimously agreed that The Dragon had been restored to its proper standard.


February 17, 2007
(beyond text and TIME)
A date that rocked our world! The Anniversary of TORn's NEW message boards!!!!!!! *toots party horn*


February 17, 2017
TORn Discussion Boards' 10th TORniversary 2/17/2007 – 2/17/2017



sample

We have been there and back again.


TIME Google Calendar


6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014

5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015


TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit


grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 17 2017, 2:22pm

Post #10 of 57 (3014 views)
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*nods enthusiastically* [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.' [Frodo speaking with Gildor]


I agree Galadriel is not telling Sam what to do, but merely pulling Sam back from his impulse to go back and reminding him of Frodo and the Quest... which it's a good thing she did before he took off! She's like Gandalf in knowing how to speak to someone and reach them at their level.

Oh geez, yeah! You're absolutely right that he physically could not retrace the way home by himself... though I'm sitting here shaking my head smiling as I think that he'd sure give it a try in his heat to get back to his beloved, threatened home and family! The only thing that could turn him aside from that would be his devotion to Frodo. Gotta love Sam! :D



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squire
Half-elven


Feb 17 2017, 5:43pm

Post #11 of 57 (3008 views)
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It's not quite so simple as deft screenwriters artfully "dramatizing" a dull literary interior monologue [In reply to] Can't Post

Sam, deciding to abandon Mr. Frodo and go home after Mr. Frodo is dead, is hardly the same dramatic situation as Mr. Frodo, still alive and headed for Mordor, ordering Sam to abandon Mr. Frodo and go home.

The presence of Mr. Frodo in the film scene makes it all different, somehow. Kind of opposite, even, so that Sam (and the audience) despairs and loses faith not in himself, but in his master.



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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Feb 17 2017, 6:30pm

Post #12 of 57 (3004 views)
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Good catch. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although it's not clear to me that Sam really would try to head for home from Cirith Ungol, just because the idea occurs to him as it did when he was standing at the Mirror.

It's interesting that those two times when he thought of going home are also linked by the fact that he saw the scene at Cirith Ungol in the Mirror.

There are four lights.

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Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 17 2017, 6:53pm

Post #13 of 57 (3002 views)
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Samwise the Rock [In reply to] Can't Post

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
-Matthew 16:18

Earlier:

'Poor old Bill! ' he said in a choking voice. `Poor old Bill! Wolves and snakes! But the snakes were too much for him. I had to choose, Mr. Frodo. I had to come with you.'
-A Journey in the Dark

Which with the choice at Lothlorien and the choice at Cirith Ungol makes three.

Later:

And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed.
-The Siege of Gondor

Coincidence? I think not!!

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 17 2017, 6:55pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 17 2017, 9:52pm

Post #14 of 57 (2996 views)
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Interesting take [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Sam (and the audience) despairs and loses faith not in himself, but in his master.

I don't read it that way - I think Sam actually does lose faith in himself, and in his ability to do anything more for Frodo, when Frodo turns on him and tells him he's the one who's no longer wanted on the journey.

Gollum has manipulated the situation to get Sam to offer to help carry the Ring, having planted the idea in Frodo's head that Sam actually wants to steal it. Frodo reacts with paranoia, and Sam is horrified to see that he's no longer trusted. Based on the way the movie has set up the Ring's power (that "one by one it will destroy them all"), Frodo has every reason to believe that Sam is no longer safe near the Ring - and Sam may also believe in his own corruption by it. It's only when he finds the missing lembas and understands that Gollum has manipulated them both that he realizes the mistake they both have made.


There are parallels not only with Sam's despairing thoughts in the Pass of Cirith Ungol but also with the scene in the Tower later, when Frodo reacts with paranoia at Sam's offer to share the job of carrying the Ring, and Sam is left “his face wrung with pain, as if he had been stabbed in the heart; tears welled from his eyes.” If the filmmakers didn't have Tolkien's description of Sam's reaction in mind for this scene, I'd be very surprised!


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



squire
Half-elven


Feb 18 2017, 2:33am

Post #15 of 57 (2989 views)
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I think you're on solider ground with the Tower scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes more sense to me that the screen writers were inspired by Frodo's rejection of Sam later, in the Tower, when they created the "Go home, Sam" bit.

I don't see the Choices of Master Samwise in it at all, for the reasons I mentioned: Frodo's presence versus his absence changes everything about how Sam thinks about himself.



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FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 18 2017, 12:37pm

Post #16 of 57 (2956 views)
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Fair enough. [In reply to] Can't Post

In my answer to NEB, I was only intending to suggest that the idea of going home wasn't an outlandish one, since Tolkien had Sam consider it too (although admittedly slightly later in the story). The different context doesn't change that basic point, although it does potentially change the motivation for it, as you point out. But I don't see as big a difference as you do in Sam's motivation - I see him despairing of his own abilities in both cases, but for different reasons.

Quote
Frodo's presence versus his absence changes everything about how Sam thinks about himself.

It's how Frodo thinks about himself that changes everything, for me. Book-Frodo remains in control, whereas movie-Frodo sinks deeper and deeper into paranoia. Since Frodo behaves in a completely opposite way in the movie (undermining Sam instead of encouraging him), his presence is as destructive to Sam's self-confidence as his absence is in the book. Meaning that in both situations, it's Sam who loses his sense of what his role is meant to be, and has to make "choices" with no-one to guide him. It's just that the Choices of Master movie-Samwise happen before Frodo meets Shelob, instead of afterwards! Once he realizes that his place is still with Frodo, the two storylines start to run together again.


They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



squire
Half-elven


Feb 18 2017, 12:44pm

Post #17 of 57 (2956 views)
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Very well put [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your perception of live film-Frodo being so different from live book-Frodo as to be equivalent in Sam's mind to dead book-Frodo.



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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 18 2017, 1:21pm

Post #18 of 57 (2953 views)
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TIME - February 18 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 18, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
The Fellowship travel the Great River.
(not from the appendices)
..."So the Company went on their long way, down the wide hurrying waters, borne ever southwards. Bare woods stalked along either bank, and they could not see any glimpse of the lands behind... ...the River flowed without a sound. No voice of bird broke the silence. The sun grew misty as the day grew old, until it gleamed in a pale sky like a high white pearl. Then it faded into the West, and dusk came early, followed by a grey and starless night. Far into the dark quiet hours they floated on... ...Great trees passed by like ghosts, thrusting their twisted thirsty roots through the mist down into the water. It was dreary and cold."




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 19 2017, 2:37pm

Post #19 of 57 (2929 views)
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TIME - February 19 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 19, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The Company makes its way down the River.
(not from the appendices)
..."The dull grey hours passed without event. As the third day of their voyage wore on the lands changed slowly: the trees thinned and then failed altogether. On the eastern bank to their left they saw long formless slopes stretching up and away toward the sky; brown and withered they looked, as if fire had passed over them, leaving no living blade of green: an unfriendly waste... ...They had come to the Brown Lands that lay, vast and desolate, between Southern Mirkwood and the hills of the Emyn Muil. What pestilence or war or evil deed of the Enemy hand so blasted all that region even Aragorn could not tell....
...'How wide and empty and mournful all this country looks!' said Frodo. 'I always imagined that as one journeyed south it got warmer and merrier, until winter was left behind for ever.'
...'But we have not journeyed far south yet,' answered Aragorn. 'It is still winter, and we are far from the sea. Here the world is cold until the sudden spring, and we may yet have snow again. Far away down in the Bay of Belfalas, to which Anduin runs, it is warm and merry, maybe, or would be but for the Enemy....'
......Sam looked from bank to bank uneasily. The trees had seemed hostile before, as if they harbored secret eyes and lurking dangers; now he wished that the trees were still there. He felt that the Company was too naked, afloat in little open boats in the midst of shelterless lands, and on a river that was the frontier of war."

2. Gandalf recovers in Lothlórien.
(from the appendices-no text)
For long hours Galadriel and at times Celeborn sat with Gandalf as he would fall into fitful sleep. Together they strove in thought against the darkness as Gandalf made his way back.




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 20 2017, 11:55am

Post #20 of 57 (2915 views)
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TIME - February 20 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 20, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The days on the River pass slowly.
(not from the appendices)
..."There was little speech and no laughter in any of the boats. Each member of the Company was busy with his own thoughts.
...The heart of Legolas was running under the stars of a summer night in some northern glade amid the beechwoods; Gimli was fingering gold in his mind, and wondering if it were fit to be wrought into the housing of the Lady's gift. Merry and Pippin in the middle boat were ill at ease, for Boromir sat muttering to himself... ...as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him, sometimes seizing a paddle and driving the boat close behind Aragorn's. Then Pippin... ...caught a queer gleam in his eye, as he peered forward gazing at Frodo. Sam had long ago made up his mind that, though boats were maybe not as dangerous as he had been brought up to believe, they were far more uncomfortable than even he had imagined. He was cramped and miserable, having nothing to do but stare at the winter-lands crawling by and the grey water on either side of him. Even when the paddles were in use they did not trust Sam with one."

February 20, 3020 (S.R. 1420)
1. The Shire rebuilds.
(not from the appendices)
..."The trees were the worst loss and damage, for at Sharkey's bidding they had been cut down recklessly far and wide over the Shire; and Sam grieved over this more than anything else... ...this hurt would take long to heal, and only his great-grandchildren, he thought, would see the Shire as it ought to be."




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 21 2017, 1:03pm

Post #21 of 57 (2886 views)
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TIME - February 21 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 21, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. A clever waterman; slyer than a fox and slippery as a fissssshhhh.
(not from the appendices)
..."As dusk drew down on the fourth day, [Sam] was looking back over the bowed heads of Frodo and Aragorn and the following boats; he was drowsy and longed for camp and the feel of earth under his toes. Suddenly something caught his sight... ...he sat up and rubbed his eyes; but when he looked again he could not see it anymore.
...That night they camped on a small eyot close to the western bank. Sam lay rolled in blankets beside Frodo. 'I had a funny dream an hour or two before we stopped, Mr. Frodo,' he said. 'Or maybe it wasn't a dream. Funny it was anyway.'
...'Well, what was it?' said Frodo, knowing that Sam would not settle down until he had told his tale, whatever it was. 'I haven't seen or thought of anything to make me smile since we left Lothlórien.'
...'It wasn't funny that way, Mr. Frodo. It was queer. All wrong, if it wasn't a dream... ...It was like this: I saw a log with eyes!'
...'The log's all right,' said Frodo. 'There are many in the River. But leave out the eyes!'
...'That I won't,' said Sam. 'Twas the eyes as made me sit up so to speak. I saw what I took to be a log floating along in the half-light behind Gimli's boat; but I didn't give much heed to it. Then it seemed as if the log was slowly catching us up. And that was peculiar... ...seeing as we were all floating on the stream together. Just then I saw the eyes: two pale sort of points, shiny-like, on a hump at the near end of the log. What's more, it wasn't a log, for it had paddle-feet, like a swan's almost, only they seemed bigger, and kept dipping in and out of the water.
...'That's when I sat right up and rubbed my eyes, meaning to give a shout, if it was still there when I had rubbed the drowse out of my head. For the whatever-it-was was coming along fast now and getting close behind Gimli. But whether those two lamps spotted me moving and staring, or whether I came to my senses, I don't know. When I looked again, it wasn't there. Yet I think I caught a glimpse, with the tail of my eye... ...of something dark shooting under the shadow of the bank. I couldn't see no more eyes, though.
...I said to myself: "Dreaming again, Sam Gamgee," I said... ...and now I'm not so sure. What do you make of it, Mr. Frodo?'
...I should make nothing of it but a log and the dusk and sleep in your eyes, Sam... ...if this was the first time that those eyes had been seen. But it isn't. I saw them away back north before we reached Lórien. And I saw a strange creature with eyes climbing to the flet that night. Haldir saw it too. And do you remember the report of the Elves that went after the orc-band?'
...'Ah,' said Sam, 'I do; and I remember more too. I don't like my thoughts; but thinking of one thing and another and Mr. Bilbo's stories and all, I fancy I could put a name on the creature, at a guess. A nasty name. Gollum, maybe?'
...'Yes, that is what I have feared for some time... ...Ever since the night on the flet. I suppose he was lurking in Moria, and picked up our trail then; but I hoped that our stay in Lórien would throw him off the scent again. The miserable creature must have been hiding in the woods by the Silverlode, watching us start off!'
...'...And we'd better be a bit more watchful ourselves, or we'll feel some nasty fingers round our necks one of these nights, if we ever wake up to feel anything. And that's what I was leading up to. No need to trouble Strider or the others tonight. I'll keep watch. I can sleep tomorrow, being no more than luggage in a boat, as you might say.'
...'I might,' said Frodo, 'and I might say "luggage with eyes". You shall watch; but only if you promise to wake me half-way towards morning, if nothing happens before then.'"




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grammaboodawg
Immortal


Feb 22 2017, 11:54am

Post #22 of 57 (2866 views)
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TIME - February 22 [In reply to] Can't Post

Today in Middle-earth

February 22, 3019 (S.R. 1419)
1. The Company tries to elude their tracker.
(not from the appendices)
..."In the dead hours Frodo came out of a deep dark sleep to find Sam shaking him. 'It's a shame to wake you,' whispered Sam, 'but that's what you said. There's nothing to tell... ...I thought I heard some soft splashing and a sniffling noise, a while back; but you hear a lot of such queer sounds by a river a night.'
...He lay down, and Frodo sat up, huddled in his blankets, and fought off his sleep... ...Frodo was just yielding to the temptation to lie down again when a dark shape, hardly visible, floated close to one of the moored boats. A long whitish hand could be dimly seen as it shot out and grabbed the gunwale; two pale lamplike eyes shone coldly as they peered inside, and then they lifted and gazed up at Frodo on the eyot. They were not more than a yard or two away, and Frodo heard the soft hiss of intaken breath. He stood up, drawing Sting from its sheath, and faced the eyes. Immediately their light was shut off. There was another hiss and a splash, and the dark log-shape shot away downstream into the night. Aragorn stirred in his sleep... ...and sat up....
...'What is it?' he whispered, springing up and coming to Frodo. 'I felt something in my sleep. Why have you drawn your sword?'
...'Gollum... ...Or at least, so I guess.'
...'Ah!' said Aragorn. 'So you know about our little footpad, do you? He padded after us all through Moria and right down to Nimrodel. Since we took to boats, he has been lying on a log and paddling with hands and feet. I have tried to catch him... ...but he is slier than a fox, and as slippery as a fish. I hoped the river-voyage would beat him, but he is too clever a waterman.'"





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hanne
Lorien

Feb 22 2017, 7:01pm

Post #23 of 57 (2856 views)
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I wonder why Gollum's eyes shine? [In reply to] Can't Post

Have we ever discussed before?

Do they shut out because Gollum can control the light, or just because he ducked or turned away?

Are they reflecting starlight, symbolizing either his rejection of goodness or that there is some good still left within him? Tolkien wrote of the Elves who had lived in Aman during the time of the Trees that that light always shone out of their eyes thereafter. Not that Gollum ever went there :) but is this some hint that his presence isn't unambiguously a bad thing?


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Feb 22 2017, 8:42pm

Post #24 of 57 (2853 views)
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There was a great post years ago about Gollum's shining eyes. [In reply to] Can't Post

The conclusion, if I remember rightly, was that if there was actual light within Gollum's eyes then he should be functionally blind.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


hanne
Lorien

Feb 22 2017, 9:12pm

Post #25 of 57 (2844 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

Middle-earth physics can throw some strange surprises :)

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