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If Beren and Luthien was made into a movie...
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ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 13 2017, 1:35am

Post #1 of 46 (2471 views)
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If Beren and Luthien was made into a movie... Can't Post

With Beren and Luthien's publication three months away, here are some questions on possibly making this book into a film or miniseries.

1. Would you want to see an adaptation?
2. If so, what medium would you want to see it in (film, TV)?
3. How much of the rest of The Silmarillion would you want to see?
4. Who should play the legendary couple?
5. What screenwriters/directors/producers do you think would create an adaptation that would satisfy your standards?
6. What other characters/actors would you want to see in the adaptation?

I always follow my job through.

(This post was edited by ange1e4e5 on Feb 13 2017, 1:37am)


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 13 2017, 5:02pm

Post #2 of 46 (2335 views)
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Anyone? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Feb 13 2017, 8:47pm

Post #3 of 46 (2323 views)
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My thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Would you want to see an adaptation?

Yes, very much so. i think this story of the Silmarillion sets itself up best for an adaptation. But I would really like to see someone besides PJ do it. I think he did an excellent job with the LoTR because he had something to prove. The Hobbit adaptions were not well done and one of the major problems is PJ's success went to his head and perhaps no one was able or willing to tell him "No" to his crazy ideas.

I want someone who has respect for the source material and who has something to prove.

2. If so, what medium would you want to see it in (film, TV)?

Definitely a movie. because of Sauron, Huan, Morgoth, and the grandness it would require for special effects, it must be a movie and not a TV Show.

3. How much of the rest of The Silmarillion would you want to see?

I would like as much as I can get, if it is done well.

4. Who should play the legendary couple?

I have no idea, but I like the idea of using no-name, or little known, actors as PJ has done in the past.

5. What screenwriters/directors/producers do you think would create an adaptation that would satisfy your standards?

As mentioned above, someone besides PJ. I wouldn;t mind if there were others from the LoTR involved, but I want new blood.

6. What other characters/actors would you want to see in the adaptation?

I really do not know. Howard Shore would be welcomed again!

Not all those who wander are lost


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 13 2017, 10:20pm

Post #4 of 46 (2318 views)
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Hmmmm..... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Would you want to see an adaptation?

A good adaptation, or at least an adaptation so bad it’s good.


2. If so, what medium would you want to see it in (film, TV)?

Yes. Anime would be nice too.


3. How much of the rest of The Silmarillion would you want to see?

As much as they can cram in. And HoME.


4. Who should play the legendary couple?

I’m tempted to say Liv Tyler and Viggo Mortensen. They’re both good actors and seem to readily blend into new roles. But Tyler especially since she seems to be the only actor in the world who realizes Elves are not Vulcans but rather deeply emotional beings.

Otherwise Scarlett Johanssen and Sebastian Stan.

5. What screenwriters/directors/producers do you think would create an adaptation that would satisfy your standards?

Screenwriters: Gina Prince-Bythewood, Roxane Gay, and Michel Ocelot.
Director: Gina Prince-Bythewood
Producer: Kathleen Kennedy

6. What other characters/actors would you want to see in the adaptation?

Kenneth Branagh as Sauron, Stanley Tucci as Fingol, Danny Trejo as Finrod, Christopher Walken as Celegorm, Steve Buscemi as Curufin, John C. Reilly as Huan, and Benicio Del Toro as Carcharoth.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


enanito
Lorien

Feb 14 2017, 9:21pm

Post #5 of 46 (2277 views)
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Either "go big", or "keep it intimate" [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm uncertain how I'd prefer an adaptation to be filmed. In some ways I'd almost like to see it done in a "Netflix" fashion, outside of the standard Hollywood-blockbuster implementation. Obviously you'd want to throw enough money at it so that it's not just a fan film (which are great, just lacking in the oomph required to transmit the scale of Middle Earth and the power of the baddies).

But I must confess, I'm one of those "almost any adaptation is welcome" kind of people -- quite heretical for many faithful RR denizens, I know. And I completely understand why this is an unsavory opinion to many/most/everyone-but-me. But I can enjoy the Hobbit movies for what they are, similar to how I can enjoy the Star Wars prequels in a way that many others cannot. I surely can appreciate how they are lesser in most every degree to the other movies in the series, but I still find I enjoy them. I wish they all measured up, but I'm happy to have them anyways.

So regarding B & L, if I had to choose between a 'pretty good movie or TV series', and 'nothing at all because I'd only want something that measures up to the source material', I think I'd choose option (a) Wink


CuriousG
Half-elven


Feb 14 2017, 9:45pm

Post #6 of 46 (2280 views)
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Heresy in the Reading Room--where are the burning stakes when you need them? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just kidding, of course.

I'm torn on this question because I don't see how it could be done in a way that would 1) do justice to the tale in terms of backstory (what's a Maia, why does Thingol not like Men, who was Thingol, why is Luthien the most beautiful person ever, etc) and 2) not boring to death a poor film audience who didn't want endless backstory on the above, and who Morgoth is, and who Sauron used to be, and Fearnor, and the Trees and Silmarils and Valar and--you get the idea. Would there be a 30-minute voiceover with the past events at a blur?

OK, so scratch all that, and try to make it an adventure & love story. That might work for fans of the Jackson movies who wanted to see the latest installment from Middle-earth, but they might wonder where all the Dwarves and hobbits were. Just how much can you abbreviate the past and make this a distiinctive love story, or does it become of necessity just another love story, and then what's the point?

I'm confessing more to a lack of imagination of how to do this right rather than saying it's a bad idea. If someone could do it right, i.e., please both book fans and the general audience, I would be first in line to watch it. (How do you cast Huan the Hound?)


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 15 2017, 3:36pm

Post #7 of 46 (2244 views)
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My answers for my questions [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I would want to see an adaptation.

2. To me, I don't particularly care. If I was being practical, I'd aim for a miniseries

3. Probably the directly leading events at the least in a five-minute prologue or even a summary onscreen leading into the life of the outlaws of the House of Beor.

4. My choices would be Richard Madden (Game of Thrones) as Beren and Alicia Vikander as Luthien.

5. For a director, I would choose Michael Mann or Kenneth Branagh. As a screenwriter, I would have Chris Weitz, the screenwriter for Cinderella.

6. I'd like to see :
Adam Driver as Sauron
Paul Bettany as Thingol
Eva Green as Melian
Harry Lloyd and Iwan Rheon as Celegorm and Curufin
Idris Elba as Huan

Composer: John Williams.

I always follow my job through.

(This post was edited by ange1e4e5 on Feb 15 2017, 3:37pm)


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 15 2017, 3:42pm

Post #8 of 46 (2244 views)
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To diverge... [In reply to] Can't Post

For The Children of Hurin, I'd have Alejandro Inarritu as director and George R.R. Martin as the screenwriter. Children of Hurin is a story he'd like.

I always follow my job through.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 15 2017, 3:52pm

Post #9 of 46 (2245 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't want Martin to have anything to do with a Tolkien screenplay. Explicit misogyny and sexual violence have no place in Middle-earth.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 15 2017, 3:53pm)


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 15 2017, 3:54pm

Post #10 of 46 (2243 views)
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You've read The Children of Hurin, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

Graphic violence, stupid-ass decisions and incest are all part of the ball-game, along with the bad guys winning.

I always follow my job through.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 15 2017, 4:24pm

Post #11 of 46 (2246 views)
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Yes, but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd rather not have to watch multiple overlong explicit scenes of Brodda beating and raping Aerin.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


enanito
Lorien

Feb 15 2017, 10:20pm

Post #12 of 46 (2208 views)
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Would even a 5-minute summary be necessarily required? [In reply to] Can't Post

There's plenty of successful movies that just throw the viewer directly into the mix, with plenty of unknowns swirling around. Yet we discover as we go along, details that start to fit into the puzzle. When done properly, you can feel that something is important, even if you can't yet figure out why. Certain directors are even fêted by critics in how they leave certain unknowns in the viewers minds, and avoid wrapping up all the loose details with nice shiny bows. Granted, as has been discussed on the Forum, it's a fine line between an author who uses 'info gaps' to allow the reader to fill them in on their own, and a lazy author who has missing pieces in the story that end up distracting from the storyline.

I enjoyed the story of Beren and Lúthien in my first readings of LOTR, without having any clue about really anything pertaining to their lives or backstories beyond what was mentioned right there. Sure it means more to me now, but it captured my imagination even then.

So I'd hope if a movie/mini-series were made, it would be able to find that same sweet spot that moved us when we read LOTR without having read the Sil or any other of Tolkien's writings. Of course you thrown in tidbits that would excite those "in-the-know", without detracting from the experience of newbies. Kind of like how an effective children's movie can actually be entertaining for everyone by throwing in cultural references that might go over the heads of six year olds, but are meaningful to adults.


(This post was edited by enanito on Feb 15 2017, 10:22pm)


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 15 2017, 11:43pm

Post #13 of 46 (2196 views)
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Any other thoughts? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


Meneldor
Valinor


Feb 16 2017, 1:29am

Post #14 of 46 (2202 views)
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I totally agree with enanito. [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't read the Sil in order the first time I tried, and I ended up reading Beren and Luthien without much context. And I loved the tale so much that I read it more than once before I managed to slog my way through the whole history and finally put all the details of the story into context.

With good writing, direction, and editing, I think B&L could work as a stand-alone epic adventure, and still include lots of subtle references and easter eggs for the hardcore fans.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 16 2017, 3:47pm

Post #15 of 46 (2162 views)
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So if we dispense with the prologue, [In reply to] Can't Post

Where would the action start? The betrayal of Gorlim?

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 16 2017, 3:48pm

Post #16 of 46 (2157 views)
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Like cast and crew? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 16 2017, 3:51pm

Post #17 of 46 (2159 views)
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Also, wholesale torture is no stranger to Middle-Earth. [In reply to] Can't Post

I could imagine a torture scene involving rats and a bucket in Angband.

I always follow my job through.

(This post was edited by ange1e4e5 on Feb 16 2017, 3:57pm)


noWizardme
Valinor


Feb 16 2017, 4:19pm

Post #18 of 46 (2158 views)
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I do agree that a don't explain-everything story would be possible (whether or not 'possible' is distinct from 'desirable' depends on what one would look for in such a film) [In reply to] Can't Post

I can imagine Beren and Luthien as a standalone story. But this raises the question of whether First Age Belereiand and the wars between Morgoth and the elves can be reduced to a setting for an adventure tale about two lovers, and the seemingly impossible task the lovers pull off in order to fulfil the hostile father-of-the-bride's conditions for their marriage. Arguably, you don't have to know the detail of what a simaril is or who Morgoth is to follow the idea that Beren has to steal the Big Bad's crown jewels, that Luthien loves him enough to defy her father and help him, and that they then have an exciting adventure involving magic and werewolves.

So I do agree that a don't -explain-everything story would be possible (whether or not 'possible' is distinct from 'desirable'), just as it's possible to tell Apocalypse Now as a story without Francis Ford Coppola needing to include a full history lesson on the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War is a setting in which Apocalypse Now can explore what happens when people with a weak moral compass are allowed to do just about anything they want, just as the Belgian Congo was a suitable setting for the tale as it was originally (Coppola's film is of course a retelling of Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness).

I think that's where all these "could there/should there be a film or TV version of Tolkien work [x]" discussions end up BTW : people differ about what their priorities would be in a film. Is simplification OK if the characters are well enough written and acted to make the simplified story engaging? Or is it OK if there are enough fights and stunts, and exciting special effects, or if the actors cast as Beren and Luthien are fanciable enough (or other priorities according to what each person looks for in the film)? Then again, does simplification ruin the work, or betray Tolkien's vision of it ?(Tolkien didn't attempt a standalone treatment, even though his publisher was soon pleading for further LOTR-like stories. He seemed to want to tell the story only as part of an epic sweep - so epic that he could not finish it in his lifetime). Answers differ, and the idea of a film (or an actual film) delights or appals us each accordingly.

BTW - why are we discussing film treatments in the Reading Room? Main might give this post a bigger audience

~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 16 2017, 4:55pm

Post #19 of 46 (2150 views)
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Because someone else put this type of thread into this forum for The Children of Hurin. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 17 2017, 4:31pm

Post #20 of 46 (2105 views)
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If it happened at all. We don't know. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 17 2017, 5:41pm

Post #21 of 46 (2095 views)
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You've read The Children of Hurin, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

But the homestead of Húrin soon fell into decay, and though Morwen laboured hard she was poor, and would have gone hungry but for the help that was sent to her secretly by Aerin, Húrin’s kinswoman; for a certain Brodda, one of the Easterlings, had taken her by force to be his wife.
-Chapter IV, The Departure of Turin

“Often would she and her daughter have gone hungry, but for the Lady Aerin. She aided them in secret, it is said, and was often beaten for it by the churl Brodda, her husband by need.”
-Chapter XII, The Return of Túrin to Dorlómin

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

Feb 17 2017, 6:13pm

Post #22 of 46 (2079 views)
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As opposed to Morgoth beating up and raping the Elves later in the Silm? [In reply to] Can't Post

All right not so much the raping. Though, reading between the lines, I do suspect it happened. Also, did not Morgoth have lustful scenes towards Luthien in the chapter, though that could just be my interpretation.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 17 2017, 6:39pm

Post #23 of 46 (2078 views)
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Or Celebrian's torment [In reply to] Can't Post

In 2509 Celebrian wife of Elrond was journeying to Lórien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir, but not before she had suffered torment and had received a poisoned wound. She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea.
-Appendix A, The Numenorean Kings, (iii) Eriador, Arnor and the heirs of Isildur


In Reply To
Though, reading between the lines, I do suspect it happened.


I'm sure where there's even the slightest hint in the text of a situation where a female might be humiliated, beaten, and/or raped Martin would turn it into an explicit and overlong showpiece.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 17 2017, 7:24pm

Post #24 of 46 (2073 views)
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Yes, I have. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


ange1e4e5
Rohan

Feb 18 2017, 6:39pm

Post #25 of 46 (2029 views)
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So if we excise a prologue, where should we start? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.

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