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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"I doubt that Tolkien would have even watched part one (AUJ) to the end.."
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malickfan
Gondor


Jan 29 2017, 10:43am

Post #26 of 48 (3529 views)
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Tolkien was a middle class Oxford scholar with limited sympathy or interest in cinema as a art-form.. [In reply to] Can't Post

...He was already in late middle age when sales of his books really took off, he wrote the stories largely for his own entertainment and died more than 40 years ago, although comments in his various published letters (and other sources) indicate he was very protective of his writing and would more likely than not be displeased with a lot of the changes in the Jackson films I think it is rather unfair to try argue Tolkien's point of view for him.

I'm certainly guilty of doing it myself in the past, (and no I don't personally think Tolkien would have liked the films very much), but the Tolkien of the 1960's-70's would have very different views to his younger self, and he couldn't have imagined the scale and technical developments in modern cinema compared to his day, so I don't think it's entirely fair to transplant his views from then to the modern day, JRR Tolkien as the author (and his son Christopher as the literary executor) was the creator of middle earth, so he'd always have a different point of view to the fans and have more emotional attachment to the source material, trying to score points with this argument helps no-one, just try and enjoy (or dislike) the films on their own merits.

At the very least I think he'd be honored that his stories were so popular all these years later to inspire six big budget films and all the related discussion, I think he'd take a great deal of interest and pleasure in the artwork, music and production design in the films, and I've got a feeling he'd be every bit as charmed by some of the performances as many of us, McKellen was certainly perfect casting i.m.o.








Silmaril
Rohan


Jan 29 2017, 1:17pm

Post #27 of 48 (3519 views)
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I am no purist at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

I read the books after watching LOTR. I was very open for changes and additions like Dol Guldur and Tauriel. But I simply don't like how they did it. I trusted in the makers of LOTR but left the cinema disappointed.


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Jan 29 2017, 8:01pm

Post #28 of 48 (3484 views)
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I guess I would be another one. [In reply to] Can't Post

I love both the books and the movies, well, except for the last installment of TH.

Maybe Tolkien would have been one of those rare humans who did not care for cell phones or computers. I am sure he would have noticed all of the buzz surrounding the Peter Jackson films, but maybe would have chosen not to be involved with them one way or the other. But........ if he had watched FoTR, I am sure he would have watched to the end !!!! It is the best film of the six, and even if he chose not to watch it initially, if he were to listen to the soundtrack instead, this would have drawn him in. Maybe his DVD collection would have included all six music soundtracks only. Viva Howard Shore!

Please, call me Ve.


(This post was edited by VeArkenstone on Jan 29 2017, 8:08pm)


LittleHobbit
Lorien

Jan 29 2017, 9:02pm

Post #29 of 48 (3463 views)
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Ok... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if I sounded rude or something. But your post has got me thinking: can we trust the opinion of a Tolkien 'scholar' who can't even get the date of Tolkien's letter correct? I seem to recall that the famous letter ''dissecting'' the animated LOTR was written in 1958. So it should be in the 1950's, not the 1960's.

So much for a 'scholarly' opinon. Unsure


Silmaril
Rohan


Jan 30 2017, 7:49am

Post #30 of 48 (3432 views)
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No problem... [In reply to] Can't Post

I just found it interesting that this "scholar" had respect for the LOTR movies in contrast to Christopher Tolkien, and disliked The Hobbit movies.


(This post was edited by Silmaril on Jan 30 2017, 7:54am)


Gandalf the Green
Rivendell

Feb 4 2017, 12:51pm

Post #31 of 48 (3344 views)
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Oh, you Hobbit movie apologists... [In reply to] Can't Post

are so funny sometimes.

Of course he would've watched FOTR to the end.
The Hobbit movies were ridiculous and stunk, and completely strayed from the spirit of Tolkien in the majority of places they went, simply put.
The LOTR films, however, were and are masterpieces and still carry the spirit and sophistication of the books.


Noria
Gondor

Feb 4 2017, 2:13pm

Post #32 of 48 (3333 views)
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I don’t think we can be sure that Tolkien would have liked Jackson’s FotR or any of the other movies. [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ made some major changes from the LotR book too. Here are just a few off the top of my head, relating to characterization:

Aragorn was a reluctant, self doubting king-in-hiding instead of a king-in-waiting sure of his destiny.

Faramir was not only tempted by the Ring, but took Frodo captive intending to deliver him and the Ring to his father.

Denethor was a plain nutbar from the beginning instead of a noble but flawed and tragic ruler, plus he actively sent Boromir to try to get the Ring for him.

Merry and Pippin appeared to be petty criminals instead of the scions of elite families.

The Ents became buffoonish bores who refused to get involved in the struggle, instead of being dignified and tragic figures who knew that their march to War might be the end of them but didn’t need to be tricked into it.

Frodo turned against Sam on the road to Mordor, totally different from the together-to-the-end comrades of the book.

Crabby Elrond.

Then there are the changes to plot and theme, not to mention the amped up action sequences.

I love the LotR movies, probably more than The Hobbit movies, but to this book fan who had already adored the LotR novel for decades before FotR appeared, some of the changes were a shock. Some changes I applaud, some I just let pass by and some I dislike to this day.

As I always say, TH movies are basically Bilbo’s story from the book translated more or less intact, but with book subplots embellished and new subplots and characters added. I think the changes from the LotR book to screen are sometimes more subtle but they are there.

Gandalf the Green, I see no reason to apologize for TH movies. I like them and simply disagree with your assessment of them. The things I dislike about the second trilogy are some of the same things I dislike about the first.


wizzardly
Rohan


Feb 5 2017, 3:53pm

Post #33 of 48 (3280 views)
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Oh yes, PJ's Hobbit surely stinks like a porta-potty baking under an August sun... [In reply to] Can't Post

However, the LotR is not without moments that would likely give Tolkien reasons to roll his eyes at the very least.


LittleHobbit
Lorien

Feb 5 2017, 9:45pm

Post #34 of 48 (3257 views)
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You're joking, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even major Tolkien scholars like Wayne G. Hammond said that FOTR and TTT were ''travesties as adaptations'' and were ''faithful only on a basic level of plot'' and similar statements. C. Tolkien himself has stated the LOTR movies are garbage compared to the book. I know more than a dozen fans of the LOTR books who can't stand PJ's LOTR.

So, LOTR has deep flaws and it's a far from universal opinion that it is faithful to the book.

P.S.: Some of the more egregious alterations are listed on Noria's[/] post. Enjoy! Cool


VeArkenstone
Lorien

Feb 6 2017, 8:04pm

Post #35 of 48 (3199 views)
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I sort of like where Gandalf the Green is going with all of this, [In reply to] Can't Post

although I do have a partiality to DoS.

Please, call me Ve.


Gandalf the Green
Rivendell

Feb 7 2017, 12:58pm

Post #36 of 48 (3181 views)
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I think you're the one who's kidding him/herself... [In reply to] Can't Post

You literally forgot to leave out 'as adaptations', so kudos for still quoting their statements with all relevant elements left intact.

"Travesties as adaptations", "faithful only on a basic level of plot", that still says nothing about the films other than their level of faithfulness to the book, which is indeed far from perfect, but the films themselves are actual masterpieces and still managed to carry the spirit and sophistication of Tolkien in many places. I don't remember seeing characters and filler events being shoehorned into the LOTR films, whereas such things did happen to The Hobbit trilogy, which meddled with the plot.

As well as the numerous instances of 'hilarious humor', such as Alfrid giving himself giant mammary glands by stuffing coins into his corset, or simply the fact that he dressed up as a woman and put on a funny voice to begin with. Or phrases such as 'There could be anything down my trousers', which basically shows the juvenile, low level upon which the humor in those films is based.

It's all so very clear to me so I'm not sure why some of you cannot seem to realize even a glimmer of this. LOTR films: masterpieces as films, still carrying the essence and spirit of Tolkien as well as very much of his sophistication, and the sense of being a series of true historical events that could've happened once upon a time.

The Hobbit films: mediocre films with largely convoluted plots, filler elements that are often unresolved or feel unfitting within the context of the film (Tauriel and Kili romance, which was incredibly poorly developed and unbelievable as a result. Aragorn and Arwen's romance was believable since we were introduced to them already being in a relationship (plus it felt more like a background thing in the films, contrary to Tauriel and Kili's romance, which led character motivations to being ruined (wanting to do something good beyond their own gates, for Tauriel, and the Durin's line trio-death that was envisioned by Tolkien taken away from us in favour of some sappy drama) in order to save one measly dwarf whom she barely ever had spoken to.

And so there is more to go on about, such as Beorn's good storyline being removed from the film in favour of more Legolas to fill the theater seats with fangirl backsides. Legolas had no reason to chase after Bolg. Being hit in the face and bleeding for the first time is a terrible reason to have this character chase after Bolg rather than Beorn, since Beorn and his people were enslaved and tortured, he himself included, by the orcs of Dol Guldur, of which Bolg was one of. They could've built upon that, but decided not to, because male model elves cater better to female audiences.


Intergalactic Lawman
Rohan


Feb 7 2017, 9:21pm

Post #37 of 48 (3160 views)
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Ugh... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
'There could be anything down my trousers'

Could you imagine anyone from LOTR's saying this?? Good lord...


wizzardly
Rohan


Feb 7 2017, 11:40pm

Post #38 of 48 (3149 views)
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seriously... [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you imagine Tolkien running a gem like that by his fellow Inklings at the Eagle & Child, and the awkward silence that would follow?


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 8 2017, 12:29am

Post #39 of 48 (3163 views)
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Actually.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
'There could be anything down my trousers'

Could you imagine anyone from LOTR's saying this?? Good lord...


Tolkien did mischievously supply the answer to that riddle. (See "Nindalf".)

Admittedly very low brow and extremely vulgar slang from the 1930s, but I thought it was hilarious, though admittedly I'm just an old country boy.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


dormouse
Half-elven


Feb 8 2017, 9:12am

Post #40 of 48 (3117 views)
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Well yes, seriously..... [In reply to] Can't Post

...as it happens, I can imagine Tolkien and his friends sharing a more - shall we say Anglo-Saxon - sense of humour among themselves. Perhaps not using those actual words, but a similar vein of humour. Tolkien and his friends were all products of boys' schools around the turn of the last century and boys' school humour has always been pretty basic and earthy. I do seriously doubt if he would have been quite as prim as some of his readers...

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 8 2017, 2:30pm

Post #41 of 48 (3098 views)
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"Tolkien never used a big, big D!" [In reply to] Can't Post

“What, never?”
“No, never!"
“What, never??”
“Well, hardly ever!!”

-With apologies to William S. Gilbert



In Reply To
…as it happens, I can imagine Tolkien and his friends sharing a more - shall we say Anglo-Saxon - sense of humour among themselves. Perhaps not using those actual words, but a similar vein of humour.



No need to imagine. One of the four major Anglo-Saxon literature codices is The Exeter Book (aka the Codex Exoniensis) which included ninety plus riddles that inspired The Hobbit’s riddle game. One of the more forum-friendly ones:

I have heard of a something-or-other, growing in its nook, swelling and rising, pushing up its covering. Upon that boneless thing a cocky-minded young woman took a grip with her hands; with her apron a lord's daughter covered the tumescent thing.
-Riddle #45

(Answer below.)



In Reply To
Tolkien and his friends were all products of boys' schools around the turn of the last century and boys' school humour has always been pretty basic and earthy.


He was also in the army, lived in the trenches, and commanded men in battle. Despite the opinion of the Rt. Hon. Sir Joseph Porter, KCB, a gentle “If you please” is not going to inspire men to go over the top at the Somme, or crawl out into the mud and blood of no-man’s-land on a moonless night.



In Reply To
I do seriously doubt if he would have been quite as prim as some of his readers...


One can only imagine them succumbing to the vapors if they only knew he read and enjoyed gay porn!

…I was recently deeply engaged in the books of Mary Renault; especially the two about Theseus, The King Must Die, and The Bull from the Sea. A few days ago I actually received a card of appreciation from her; perhaps the piece of ‘Fan-mail’ that gives me most pleasure.
-Letter #294

Note Mary Renault is regarded as one of the greatest writers of gay literature of the 20th century. She was also a student of Tolkien’s at Oxford. He read and critiqued her first book, “Purposes of Love”, a lesbian nurse romance.

BTW, the answer to Exeter Book riddle #45 is “bread dough”. I’d wager Tolkien and the Inklings thought the double-entendres in it and in other far more ribald riddles in the book were hilarious.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 8 2017, 2:43pm)


FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 8 2017, 8:46pm

Post #42 of 48 (3059 views)
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I guess you know... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that it's a real place?

The very popular (now late lamented) host of a British TV game show called Countdown was the village's honorary Mayor, and it led to plenty of jokes about the name over the years. I guess Tolkien couldn't resist either!

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



FarFromHome
Valinor


Feb 8 2017, 8:51pm

Post #43 of 48 (3056 views)
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Well you have to admit [In reply to] Can't Post

that the Elves were being a bit careless. After all, the Goblins failed to find what Bilbo had down his trousers:
"...his hand came on the hilt of his little sword...that he had quite forgotten; nor fortunately had the goblins noticed it, as he wore it inside his breeches."
Just the kind of little detail that PJ & co like to pick up on. Quite neatly done!

Cool

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 8 2017, 10:47pm

Post #44 of 48 (3050 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

I seem to recall an article by Simon Tolkien saying that his grandfather liked to spring odd, curious, or even shocking words and idioms on dinner guests. I would imagine the name and etymology of a certain Yorkshire village would qualify as a worthwhile topic.

It's kind of ironic thinking if Tolkien himself began discussion of such a word on the forums some prudish purists might report him to the admins.

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Feb 8 2017, 10:52pm)


lurtz2010
Rohan

Feb 9 2017, 9:20am

Post #45 of 48 (3012 views)
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Hey Avnar and Wizardly [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you guys at least admit that there were SOME scenes and moments that were done well in The Hobbit? Even done perfectly? Surely you can't despise everything.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 9 2017, 1:48pm

Post #46 of 48 (3004 views)
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Actually there is one thing they both absolutely *love* about the films! [In reply to] Can't Post

They love to talk about them!

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 10 2017, 3:28pm

Post #47 of 48 (2949 views)
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nin + talf [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you have some reason, beyond your opinion, that Tolkien "mischievously" used this term in The Lord of the Rings in the way you're suggesting here?

Our own geordie has posted about this before:

- - - - - - - - - -
Tolkien's former pupil J.S. Ryan makes the same point in his article 'The Origin of the name Wetwang' in Amon Hen no.63 (August 1983), where he cites works by another of Tolkien's former students; A.H.Smith, who later was very much involved with the English Place-Name Society (of which Tolkien was a member, from its foundation in 1923 up to the time of his death). Smith, in turn, includes the article by Cole in his citations.

Like Smith, Ryan also disputes the etymology of Wetwang to be found in Ekwall's Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Place-names (which defines Wetwang as 'probably wet field'), at the same time noting the works of one of Tolkien's teachers, the great philologist Joseph Wright, in whose 'English Dialectical Dictionary we find several definitions of 'wang' or 'wong' -

1/ a field; meadow; low-lying land, often marsh...

2/ an unenclosed division of an unenclosed parish

3/ a measure of land... a plain, mead, field, place.

Ryan goes on: 'Perhaps we may conclude that Tolkien's use of the Old Yorkshire name Wetwang has a nice complex of motives -

a/ A glance back at his own animated discussion of the 'wet' words _wash-wavy_ in the N.E.D. (now the Oxford English Dictionary) in The Year's Work in English Studies Vol.IV, 1923 (published 1924)

b/ a recollection of his own army and courtship... times of residence in the East Riding of Yorkshire;

c/ a sly refusal to take sides in the dispute over Wetwang between his old pupil, A.H. Smith and the encyclopedic Eilert Ekwall, as to whether Wetwang was really 'wet'.
- - - - - - - - - -

Anyway, as I say, what's the basis for your assertion that Tolkien's choice of this place-name, for inclusion in a small part of his heroic romance, is akin to Jackson's line here?


hamlet
Rivendell


Apr 27 2017, 8:40pm

Post #48 of 48 (1837 views)
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Very well said. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you have nailed this!

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