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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Are these Elvish runes correct?

hirmiestelio
The Shire

Jan 23 2017, 5:25pm

Post #1 of 24 (1412 views)
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Are these Elvish runes correct? Can't Post

Hi, All! I am trying to find the correct way to right "vanimelda" in Elvish runes. I used this Hobbit rune generator ( http://derhobbit-film.de/rune_generator.shtml#rune ) and this is what I got. However, I am hoping that someone can tell me if this really is the correct way to write it. I wasn't sure about the little fan shape that is above, but at the end and over nothing. I would like to try engraving this on a rock, but want to do the right thing. Thanks for any help!





Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2017, 6:01pm

Post #2 of 24 (1369 views)
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Is this what you got? [In reply to] Can't Post



vanimelda Quenya beautiful star?

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


hirmiestelio
The Shire

Jan 23 2017, 6:07pm

Post #3 of 24 (1359 views)
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That's It! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes. I don't know why the image didn't end up in the post. Sorry about that. Is that the correct way to write "vanimelda"? Thanks!


squire
Half-elven


Jan 23 2017, 6:28pm

Post #4 of 24 (1363 views)
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Watch out for the German 'v' [In reply to] Can't Post

For peace of mind, remember there is no "right" way to render a word into Feanorian Tengwar script (not 'runes'); Tolkien did not work that way. Tengwar was just an experiment he was conducting to see if he could develop a systematic sound-based alphabet where the character forms indicated the sounds to be made.

That said, it looks like that program at derhobbit-film.de returns Feanorian character #22, second in grade 6, for the v in your vanimelda. In Appendix D of LotR, it says that that character "was widely used for w", one of the weak semi-vocalic consonants. It was #14, the second in grade 4, that was the standard for the voiced spirant sound of v - in English!

As I understand it, German speakers would pronounce vanimelda as "wanimelda" to English speaking ears. So which character you use, #22 or #14, depends on how you want your word to be spoken, not read - which was the whole point of Tengwar, as far as Tolkien was concerned!



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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2017, 7:29pm

Post #5 of 24 (1348 views)
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Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes. I don't know why the image didn't end up in the post. Sorry about that. Is that the correct way to write "vanimelda"? Thanks!


I can't say for sure that it's right; I got that from the same site. My translation was a guess. Is that the meaning you intended?

To show the image, you need to have img and /img in brackets around the image address.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 23 2017, 7:30pm)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 23 2017, 8:00pm

Post #6 of 24 (1342 views)
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I don't think the word for 'star' is part of vanimelda, but all we can do is try to find what Tolkien wrote [In reply to] Can't Post

vanimelda, the highest word of praise for beauty

vanimelda adj., said to be "the highest word of praise for beauty", with two interpretations that were apparently considered equally valid and simultaneously true: "beautiful and beloved" (vanima + melda, with haplology), i.e. "movingly lovely", but also "elven-fair" (fair as an Elf) (vanima + elda).

See this site with exact references to Tolkien's linguistic writings - most of which have only been published in small-circulation editions for specialists.



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Ostadan
Rivendell

Jan 23 2017, 8:03pm

Post #7 of 24 (1343 views)
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Vowels [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


vanimelda Quenya beautiful star?


In the Appendix on writing, Tolkien tells us that the vowel tehtar were placed over the _preceding_ consonant in Quenya (since so many words end with vowels).


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 23 2017, 8:26pm

Post #8 of 24 (1341 views)
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if Otaku's image is what you got... [In reply to] Can't Post

... then, as Ostadan already suggested, I would echo placing the vowels over the preceding letters (tengwar)...

... and also, for writing Quenya, there is a character for "ld". It's number 28 in the chart in The Return of the King (you currently have letter number 27 [L] plus the character used for "nd" in Quenya writing, according to what I see in Otaku's post).

Just to note it, that last "fan" is the vowel a, and if final (as can even occur in Quenya writing) should be atop a short carrier... however this won't matter once you move all the vowels anyway, as this final a will then be over character 28 (the first a will be over the first letter, for example, after you adjust the vowels).


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 23 2017, 8:40pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 23 2017, 10:20pm

Post #9 of 24 (1324 views)
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the Quenya names of the letters [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way the Quenya names of the letters are helpful in this instance of vanime_ld_a... for example you currently have the letter 27 named lambe [_l_ambe] and number 5 named Ando [A_nd_o]

... but all you need here is letter 28, named alda [ a_ld_a]


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 24 2017, 3:51am

Post #10 of 24 (1306 views)
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Here is a typical tengwar transcription [In reply to] Can't Post

Showing the vowels over the preceding consonant:



(from the tengwar annatar font on my computer; it's tricky, the tengwar and Roman letters don't match up, they're set up like tables in the Appendices. "vanimelda" is spelled using r - # - 5 - % - t - $ - j - 2 - #)

If you want to use the "ld" consonant:




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 24 2017, 5:49am

Post #11 of 24 (1293 views)
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grade 4 for writing Quenya [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure about the use of letter number 14 to begin this word, nor number 5 for 'd'.

After a general look at the Tengwar, there's a note [Appendix E] concerning the standard spelling of Quenya, which includes that Grade 4 [letters 13-16] was used for the extremely frequent combinations nt, mp, nk, nqu "since Quenya did not possess dh, gh, ghw, and for v used letter 22."

Grade 2 [letters 5-8] was used for nd, mb, ng, ngw "while for rd, ld the special letters 26, 28 were used."

So ando [5] was used for -nd-, and ampa [14] for -mp- when writing Quenya, while for English or Sindarin they could be used for d and v.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 24 2017, 5:51am)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 24 2017, 1:00pm

Post #12 of 24 (1278 views)
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Good point about 14 vs 22 [In reply to] Can't Post

I based my earlier observation (v vs. w sound) on the notes in Appendix D only.

I have wondered before how Tolkien actually regarded his experiment in a graphically phonetic alphabet - meaning one where the shapes of the letters were associated with the standard ways the mouth makes consonantal sounds. The early work in Appendix D makes it all look very scientific (single vs double bows, upper and lower long stems and short, etc.).

But then his notes (as you cite here in App. E) seem to acknowledge that his languages, invented before his alphabet, were actually phonetically too complex and too dissimilar to be accommodated within a simple but universal theoretical system. Thus the notes about how the Elves actually used the Tengwar differently depending whether the language was Quenya or Sindarin -- and of course that left the question of how to transcribe English (or almost anything, really) rather up in the air.



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Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 24 2017, 1:57pm

Post #13 of 24 (1267 views)
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the complexity... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is why these on-line transcribers sometimes fail, of course. For writing English with the Elvish letters we have a number of Tolkien-made examples to help, and even a mode used by Christopher Tolkien too. That said, even some of Tolkien's own transcriptions have been questioned (his choice of vala versus vilya for example, in some of the words in his transcription of Namarie).

So, not a bad idea to double check the transcriber thingies, as Beth is doing (sorry, I guessed Liz in another thread, but it seems Beth is preferred).

Also sorry to Beth if any of my comments are off the mark!


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 25 2017, 2:19am

Post #14 of 24 (1242 views)
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So using the Quenya preferences [In reply to] Can't Post

it would look more like this:



...maybe! Three strokes can also be used for the three dots.



Or consonant-type vowels, like those on the Moria doors.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"


hirmiestelio
The Shire

Jan 25 2017, 3:19pm

Post #15 of 24 (1219 views)
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re: it would look more like this [In reply to] Can't Post

Many thanks! So, I could pick either of these three and it would be "correct"? ;) I've read through the language stuff in the appendices before, but always was rather confused. I do have a nice little book, "The Languages of Tolkien's Middle Earth", which is where I often go to figure out runes, as it also has a dictionary of the words used in the books. However, I always get slightly confused with the vowels and wanted to double check! I appreciate all the help, as I would love to try engraving this! I tend to like the vowels above, but sometimes have done the longer version with the vowel runes. Thanks!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 25 2017, 4:21pm

Post #16 of 24 (1215 views)
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various ways to write "a" [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding the three new examples (Dernwyn, thanks for supplying them by the way, a "magic" I can't do)...

I would advise the first, or top example, the one with the dots for vowel a.

The "strokes" in the second are really due to a font choice, specifically here, the style seen on the One Ring -- in other words, once you choose a given style, or font, I think one should draw up the whole word in the same style. If you use that style to write vanimelda, then obviously the three strokes go with it. Variant choices concerning the vowel a (style or font aside) when writing Quenya, include:

1) three dots

2) a form like a circumflex (quicker writing)

3) leave out the vowel a altogether.

In my opinion here you could leave out the vowel: "vnimeld" would be read as vanimelda by Elves, but the choice is yours, depending upon which version you like best. Leaving out the vowel a isn't much done by many mortals these days, it seems, but it is one of the ways the Elves could write Quenya -- Tolkien's example in the books is clm for writing calma meaning "lamp".

Regarding the third example above, there was a mode of full writing for Quenya, but I'm not sure it's attested [?], although such a mode has been referred to in texts anyway. In any case, for myself, I usually reserve the Mode of Beleriand (a full mode seen on the doors of Moria) for writing Sindarin.

So I would write the word as in the first example (of the new three), although in any style you want of course, as far as font choice.

A quick warning about Ruth Noel's book: it's very out of date and not that well regarded by other Tolkien language experts today. That said, I don't know how accurate it is regarding the writing systems specifically, but generally speaking, it was written before a lot of new, posthumously published linguistic material came to light.

Anyway, my opinions. By the way, one day you might chance acrosse the spelling vanim_a_lda in a copy of The Lord of the Rings. If so, don't worry, that just means you have the correct spelling according to the first edition (Tolkien changed his mind here for the second edition).

Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 25 2017, 4:33pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 25 2017, 4:51pm

Post #17 of 24 (1199 views)
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PS on missing vowel a [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way, I'm assuming that leaving out vowel a can be done with words which have other vowels in it, though technically Tolkien's example of calma has only the vowel a of course. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here... or uncorrect me if I'm right?

Also, squarish dots could be due to font choice too, but now I'm indulging my pedantry. Basically, I advise being consistent with font choice, although that's just me.


Ostadan
Rivendell

Jan 25 2017, 10:58pm

Post #18 of 24 (1190 views)
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Oh, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

The tengwar are not 'runes'. They are 'letters'. Also, I do not think the 'full vowels' (i.e. letters rather than tehtar for vowels) were ever used by JRRT in writing Quenya, although I may be forgetting an example somewhere.

Oh, and Ruth Noel's book was considered wrongheaded by Tolkien linguists even when it was first published. Not to be relied upon except as a pointer to other things.


(This post was edited by Ostadan on Jan 25 2017, 11:04pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 26 2017, 3:11am

Post #19 of 24 (1176 views)
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examples of Quanta Sarme [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, although a full mode for Quenya has been referred to, Mans Bjorkman's site (assuming it's up to date here] currently lists no "certain" examples (but follows with a list of possible examples).

It's said [From Quendi And Eldar Appendix D, Vinyar Tengwar 39] that Feanor's Quanta Sarme or "Full writing" was mainly used by the Loremasters for special purposes "until later in Middle-earth the Feanorean letters were applied to other languages, such as Sindarin, in which the diacritic method of indicating vowels was inconvenient.


In any case, the diacritic version should do.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 26 2017, 1:09pm

Post #20 of 24 (1165 views)
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the mtter of leving out [a] [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently my assumption was correct (makes sense to me anyway) that omitting a is not just for words with only a. Mans not only links to an essay about omitting vowel a, but comments on yet another Tolkien example, where it appears that Tolkien omitted short a but chose to render long a. Mans describes a Tolkien transcribed word folks might be familiar with" "Transcription: "Namárie" (the "a" in the first syllable not written out)." Obviously, there is no long a in vanimelda anyway.

I kind of like the idea, as I don't see this often in transcriptions.

The films themselves are a bit "a crazy" in that the filmmakers put three dots over the Roman letter a! I mean I get what they are trying to do: dress up a Roman script with a visual hint of the tengwar, I guess...

... but nywy.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 26 2017, 1:14pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 2 2017, 6:48pm

Post #21 of 24 (1097 views)
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Quenya Greeting [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, I noticed you currently offer Frodo's famous greeting (in the books) on a stone, but like with vanimelda I would suggest using the classical mode for writing Quenya. So for Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo meaning "a star shines upon the hour of our meeting" here's someone who has already written it using the Elvish letters, following, in certain respects, Tolkien's transcription of Namárie as a guide. The following uses the style similar to that seen on the One Ring, although obviously you can employ any style you want.

http://s1192.photobucket.com/user/Isildilme/media/Elenslalmennomentielvo-Quenya.png.html

Note here the use of long carriers for long vowels, the employment of the doubling marker for -nn-, the use of one character, letter number 13 anto, for -nt-... and the use of letters 27 + 22 for -lv-. In my opinion, and perhaps a bit confusingly, you could also employ 27 and 6 instead of 27 and 22, based on the variously interpreted [Appendix E]: “For lv, not for lw, many speakers, especially Elves, used lb: this was written with 27 + 6, since lmb could not occur.”

The Omniglot page for Tengwar also chooses this greeting for a Quenya illustration, so you can see it in another, plainer font, if you want to... but they do not write lummen[a] with a long u (as I just didn't), and so make the same error in the tengwar version. And just to note it, as with vanimalda/vanimelda, Tolkien had chosen omentielmo for the first edition, later revising it. And some editions have incorrect omentilmo!


(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 2 2017, 7:01pm)


hirmiestelio
The Shire

Feb 4 2017, 11:25pm

Post #22 of 24 (1043 views)
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Re: Quenya Greeting [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the help on this! I didn't know that my sister had put the pictures of this one online yet. I was paging through the "Languages of Middle Earth" last week, and liked the quote. So I just decided to try it. I can never really grasp enough of the language rules to do the vowels above, so always end up just spelling it out, when I can't find an image of the runes online. ;) Would love it if someone could post an image of the runes for this greeting with the vowels above!

I got a hand-held engraver years ago, and never tried it. then, when a friend was going to see H:DOS at the theatre, I decided to try making a mini version of Kili's rune stone. She was the only one of us who hadn't bought a Middle Earth souvenir at the time, so I thought I would try making her one. I had so much fun, that I've been engraving Middle Earth rocks ever since! We sell some, as it helps pay for the replacement engravers and drill bits! (I think I am on engraver number five, now.) Sometimes I like to do a bigger or fancier one, than the single word types. I did one palm-size one that had a cartoon portrait of Richard Armitage as Thornton (in "North and South"). That was for a friend, who is a Thorin and Thornton nut! While that was a bit tough, I really enjoyed it.

When I saw that Frodo quote, I thought it would be fun to try a large saying on a rock. I did get some real labradorite and did some Kili rune stones on real labradorite. That was cool! Sis and I each have one and we got to give some to friends. :) Mostly I do black rocks, though, as I can get them and most people don't seem to like the more normal coloured rocks. Engraving is quite fun, all in all. A bit messy, and you have to wear face protection, but it is a fun hobby! If I can draw it on the rock, then I can mainly engrave it.

Again . . . thanks so much for the help! I really appreciate anything about the languages!


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 5 2017, 2:54pm

Post #23 of 24 (1033 views)
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the image [In reply to] Can't Post

For an image, just clink the link [sorry I don't know how to get the image into my post)...

http://s1192.photobucket.com/...elvo-Quenya.png.html

As I explained above, this example is in a font that looks similar to the style seen on the One Ring, and if you go to the Omniglot page for Tengwar, you can see a different, "simpler" font, just be wary that in the Omniglot example they didn't correctly illustrate the long u in the word lúmenna [lúmenna "upon the hour" appears as lúmenn' in Frodo's greeting of course, for a reason I'll not go into here).

Also, and I know others have mentioned it, and you might feel it's pedantic, but tenchnically the Tengwar are "letters" while the Certar are "runes".

Many of your stones (on your page) are rune stones of course, but these are the Elvish letters. The runes are those shapes that appear on Balin's tomb, for instance, and note how Tolkien has his characters differentiate these systems [before Balin's tomb] "These are Daeron's Runes, such as were used of old in Moria," said Gandalf.... but before the Doors of Moria, Frodo sees the Tengwar and says: "I thought I knew the elf-letters, but I cannot read these."

This might help with further requests (if you have any), a some folks might think you want runes when you really want the tengwar (if so).

Anyway, hope the link works!


(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 5 2017, 3:08pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Feb 5 2017, 3:22pm

Post #24 of 24 (1018 views)
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PS on long vowels [In reply to] Can't Post

By the way, the person who wrote this has chosen to put the two long vowels here (i and u) on long carriers. This is not the only way to illustrate all long vowels, but this way echoes Tolkien's own transcription of Namárie for instance.

Just in case you're wondering why these vowels have not been put above the preceding consonants.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Feb 5 2017, 3:26pm)

 
 

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