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Which villainous LOTR / Hobbit speech could real politicians quote?

N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 21 2017, 1:22am

Post #1 of 22 (976 views)
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Which villainous LOTR / Hobbit speech could real politicians quote? Can't Post

I think we can play this game without making any actual political statements, and I encourage you to do so, or this thread will quickly be locked.

If you were a well-meaning writer crafting a speech for a politician whose policies you believed in, what evildoer's dialogue used in Tolkien's books or the movies adapted therefrom could you incorporate effectively into the speech? What would appeal to real listeners?

Again, please avoid comments, pro or con, about actual politicians.

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(This post was edited by Altaira on Jan 21 2017, 10:47pm)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 21 2017, 1:42am

Post #2 of 22 (918 views)
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"There need not be, there would not be . . ." [In reply to] Can't Post

"... any real change in our designs, only in our means."

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(This post was edited by Altaira on Jan 22 2017, 5:18am)


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Tol Eressea


Jan 21 2017, 2:39am

Post #3 of 22 (902 views)
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"A new power is rising! Its victory is at hand!" [In reply to] Can't Post

That's the only villainous LOTR speech I could think of at the moment, other than "The Age of Man is over. The time of the Orc has begun!"
or Denethor, "Abandon your posts! Flee, flee for your lives!"

***
"That doesn't make much sense to me. But then again, you are quite small. Perhaps you're right."


Lissuin
Tol Eressea


Jan 21 2017, 7:08am

Post #4 of 22 (893 views)
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The Voice of Saruman: [In reply to] Can't Post

 "I fear that in my eagerness to persuade you, I lost patience. And indeed I regret it. For I bore you no ill-will; and even now I bear none...How should I?...Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world. Let us understand one another... For the common good I am willing to redress the past."
Unimpressed


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jan 21 2017, 11:09pm

Post #5 of 22 (867 views)
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FYI, political discussions are no longer allowed on the boards [In reply to] Can't Post

This is a good place and time to make a general announcement that discussions about 'real-life' politics will no longer be allowed on the boards.

You may recall this thread started by Silverlode issuing a final warning from the Admins about political discussions here on the boards, as well as this poll that indicated a majority of people would rather avoid political discussions here. Since the final warning, we recently had to delete a political post which triggered a 'no politics' rule. The terms of service and Welcome sticky at the top of the off-topic board have been updated accordingly:


Quote
Note on political discussions: it is the wish of TORn's founders that the site be a politics-free haven for Tolkien and LOTR fans. To that end, discussions about real-life politics (as in not related to Middle-earth) are not allowed here. We encourage anyone wanting to discuss real-life politics to do it on other sites meant for that purpose, or via PM if others are willing and the discussion doesn't violate our terms of service.


After the discussions in the above-mentioned threads, people seemed to be avoiding the topic on their own, but this will serve as an official announcement just in case. Let's all continue to enjoy our common interest and love for all things Tolkien! Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





(This post was edited by Altaira on Jan 22 2017, 4:43am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 21 2017, 11:51pm

Post #6 of 22 (847 views)
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Whoopee! Politics is a Kobayashi Maru [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless you’re Capt. Kirk

Superlative decision Mods, Admins, Owners . . . Whomever . . . Smile



Th.. th...


‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'

Gandalf to Denethor




N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 4:23am

Post #7 of 22 (819 views)
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Understood. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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squire
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 4:24am

Post #8 of 22 (841 views)
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Works for me [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that's a good decision, given the developing tone of the online community in that area. As others have said, I too cherish TORn as a refuge of civility and community.

NEB (and others, I'm sure) will have to get cleverer at coding real-life politics into ostensible discussions of Middle-earth 'politics'!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 4:26am

Post #9 of 22 (838 views)
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"This country wants waking up and setting to rights". [In reply to] Can't Post

A ruffian in the Shire, addressing the returning heroes in Bywater.

And that's just what happens, although not in the way he intended.

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Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 22 2017, 5:00am

Post #10 of 22 (836 views)
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Hmmmmm..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Then Fëanor grew wrathful, for he still feared delay; and hotly he spoke to Olwë. ‘You renounce your friendship, even in the hour of our need,’ he said. ‘Yet you were glad indeed to receive our aid when you came at last to these shores, fainthearted loiterers, and wellnigh emptyhanded. In huts on the beaches would you be dwelling still, had not the Noldor carved out your haven and toiled upon your walls.’
But Olwë answered: ‘We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly. And when the Noldor welcomed us and gave us aid, otherwise then you spoke: in the land of Aman we were to dwell for ever, as brothers whose houses stand side by side.'


******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 5:04am

Post #11 of 22 (814 views)
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Nice to see a Silmarillion quote included. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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sador
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 5:23am

Post #12 of 22 (815 views)
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"Alas, for the weakness of the great!" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 5:25am

Post #13 of 22 (812 views)
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Very nice! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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squire
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 5:54am

Post #14 of 22 (835 views)
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O Smaug the Chiefest and Greatest of Labour Organizers [In reply to] Can't Post

“I suppose you got a fair wage for all your overtime last week?” he went on. “Come now, did you? Nothing at all! Well, that’s just like them. And I suppose they are lounging at home, and your job is to do all the dangerous work and get paid what little you can--for them? And you will get a fair pension? Don’t you believe it! If you live to retire, you will be lucky.”



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 9:53am

Post #15 of 22 (798 views)
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"Fair shall the end be, though long and hard shall be the road! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 22 2017, 11:07pm

Post #16 of 22 (765 views)
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But is Feanor a villain? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

There are four lights.

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dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 23 2017, 9:01am

Post #17 of 22 (755 views)
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No, and I did wonder about that.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but in this instance the part he's playing is villainous because he has allowed himself to be manipulated by Melkor. And it is a very political speech...

And, putting on my stubborn hat (because mice can be tenacious) you could have asked the same question, but didn't, about the conversation between Feanor and Olwe that Darkstone quoted. I'd say Feanor is a superb example of good, and gift, and skill, and potential twisted and turned by - well - listening to the wrong speeches. His vision is skewed. He really believes what his saying - and wasn't that rather implied in your initial question? We were to be well-meaning, and to believe in the policies...





For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 23 2017, 3:18pm

Post #18 of 22 (764 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Blasphemer, kin-slayer, and abuser of his sons. I vote 'yes'.

Still, in the end really big bad guy Morgoth gets his comeuppance, while Fëanor gets redemption:

Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwë, and on his left Túrin Turambar, son of Húrin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Túrin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Húrin and all Men be avenged.
Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Eärendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Fëanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palúrien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world.

-HoME V, Quenta Silmarillion

So Fëanor's not as bad as Morgoth, but then who is?

******************************************
“Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"
"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."
"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
"But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!”
"Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!"
"No way!"
"Way!"
"Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!"
"Cool!!"

-Zack Snyder's The Return of the King


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 23 2017, 3:43pm

Post #19 of 22 (751 views)
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Grrrrr! [In reply to] Can't Post

It is a constant source of frustration to me that that was left out of the published Silmarillion. What is really ironic is that in the preface to the second edition Christopher actually quotes a statement from his father (from the famous letter to Milton Waldman) in which he talks about its importance "This legendarium ends with a vision of the end of the world, its breaking and remaking, and the recovery of the Silmarilli and the 'light before the Sun' – after a final battle which owes, I suppose, more to the Norse vision of Ragnarök than to anything else, though it is not much like it."

As for whether Feanor is hero or villain, he is both.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Jan 23 2017, 6:59pm

Post #20 of 22 (732 views)
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HoMe V or HoMe XI? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I recall, in The War of the Jewels, the text says that it is Feanor not Yavanna who actually breaks the silmarils

There are four lights.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 23 2017, 9:11pm

Post #21 of 22 (719 views)
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Maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher notes in the discussion of the concluding chapter of the Quenta in WotJ, "And she will break them [the Silmarils] and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees': this was emended on the carbon copy of the typescript only to: 'and he [Feanor] will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees'." So I suppose it is unclear whether he really would have wanted to make that change or not (although I think it is a better story). In any event, it should be noted that in the Athrabeth notes, Tolkien wrote "It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenorean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition. All Elvish traditions are presented as 'histories', or as accounts of what once was." (Morgoth's Ring, p. 342.) So the Second Prophecy should not be considered "Elvish history" but rather Mannish mythology.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


KingTurgon
Rohan


Mar 8 2017, 4:42pm

Post #22 of 22 (382 views)
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Haha [In reply to] Can't Post

I literally lol'd at this one :p

 
 

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