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Barrel Rider
Rivendell
Jan 11 2017, 5:08pm
Post #1 of 17
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How to say "Friend" in Dwarvish?
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Hi! My sister would like to engrave a stone for a friend, and she would like it to actually say "friend" in Dwarvish. I can only find one place online that is a translator, and it says that the word friend is "Nak" in Khuzdul. Before she engraves the stone, I'm hoping that someone else might verify that, please?
Thanks!
Sarah
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 11 2017, 7:07pm
Post #2 of 17
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Sorry but there's no Dwarvish word 'nak' in anything Tolkien himself published (which is very little when it comes to Dwarvish), and no 'nak' in anything posthumously published as well (so far anyway).
I'm not sure if there's a known word for friend in Dwarvish. I doubt it, especially as I found a Neo-Khuzdul word for friend... but that wasn't nak either. I mean, why invent a word if Tolkien already attested one, although I might be assuming too much about whoever made up the Neo-Khuzdul.
Anyway, you could write mellon in stone too. It's written on the stony Doors of Durin, in the books (in Elvish letters)... or you could write it using the runes. Mellon is attested Grey-elven, and it doesn't get more written in stone than that.
Erm, sorry 'bout the tortured pun.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 11 2017, 7:15pm)
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Ostadan
Rivendell
Jan 11 2017, 7:23pm
Post #3 of 17
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Anyway, you could write mellon in stone too. It's written on the stony Doors of Durin, in the books (in Elvish letters)... or you could write it using the runes. Mellon is attested Grey-elven, and it doesn't get more written in stone than that.
And, arguably, the Sindarin word in the dwarvish Angerthas Moria symbolizes friendship (as the spoken word did in the text) better than a word in the Dwarves' secret Khuzdul language would.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 11 2017, 7:43pm
Post #4 of 17
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According to this site, http://midgardsmal.com/category/khuzdul/:
umrai friend (plural umāral)
However, I'm not aware of an authoritative source for this. Take it with a grain (or perhaps a whole bucket) of salt. I would also recommend the compromise of mellon in Dwarf-runes.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 11 2017, 7:52pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 11 2017, 8:36pm
Post #5 of 17
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If Tolkien didn't write it down somewhere, it's probably wrong to call it 'Khuzdul' at all, Neo-, Schmeo-, or otherwise.
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David Salo is a talented man, but he has muddied the waters of Tolkien Language Studies by his insistence on calling his languages, invented for the films, Neo-Elvish, Neo-Khuzdul, Neo-Etcetera. The Neo- prefix followed by Tolkien's terms appropriates Tolkien's authority, without his or his estate's permission. Tolkien's languages are tricky enough to study and learn about, given the Prof's constant tinkering with them over 60 years of creative play. It is just plain deceptive to imply to eager fans that another artist's invented words, syntaxes, and grammars are in any sense a valid extension of Tolkien's work. 'Fan fiction' at least has the grace to call itself out correctly; Salo's 'Neo-Khuzdul', on the site Otaku linked to, would be more honestly called 'Fan Dwarvish'.
As Elthir notes, Tolkien did far less work on Dwarvish than he did on his Elvish languages. Wikipedia has what is probably a pretty good compilation of all of Tolkien's Dwarvish vocabulary (see below - it's a short and scanty list!). If a word for 'friend' doesn't appear on the list (it doesn't), it's most likely that word just doesn't exist.
From wikipedia on "Khuzdul":
Verbs
Only four verb words are known. The exact tense or use of the verb is unknown:
Gunud : "delve underground, excavate, tunnel",
√S-L-N / Sulūn / Salōn : "fall, descend swiftly" (VT48:24)
Felek: "hew rock"
Felak : To use a tool like a broad-bladed chisel, or small axe-head without haft
Placenames & Names
Azaghāl: Presumably only an 'outer name' or title in Khuzdul, not an inner name.
Azanulbizar: 'Dimrill Dale'
Barazinbar: 'Redhorn' (Caradhras)
Bundushathūr: 'Cloudyhead'
Buzundush: 'Blackroot', earlier name of the Silverlode
Felakgundu: Lord of Caves, literally 'cave-hewer'; from this was derived Felagund, the sobriquet of Finrod
Gabilān: 'Great River'
Gabilgathol: 'Great Fortress' (Belegost)
Gamil Zirak: 'Old Spike' The nickname of a smith of the Firebeard Dwarves.
Gundabad: Mount Gundabad
Ibun: Name of one of the Petty-Dwarves, possibly a real inner Khuzdul name.
Kibil-nāla: a name for (but possibly not a translation of) the Silverlode
Khazad-dūm: Dwarf-mansion, Dwarrowdelf' (later known as Moria)
Kheled-zāram: 'glass-lake', i.e. Mirrormere
Khīm: Name of one of the Petty-Dwarves, possibly a 'inner name'.
Mahal : the Maker, Aulė
Mīm: Name of one of the Petty-Dwarves, possibly a 'inner name'.
Narag-zāram: 'Black-lake', early name, Mirrormere?
Nargūn: Mordor
Narkuthūn / Narukuthūn: Nargothrond?
Nulukkhizdīn: Nargothrond?
Sigin-tarāg: The Longbeards, the house of Durin
Sharbhund: Amon Rūdh, possibly meaning 'Bald Hill' as is in Sindarin
Tharkūn: Gandalf, said to mean 'Staff-man'
Tumunzahar: 'Hollowbold' (Nogrod)
Udushinbar: Earlier name of Bundushathūr
Uruktharbun: Earlier name of either Khazad-dūm or Azanulbizar, meaning unknown
Zigil-nād: earlier name of the Silverlode
Zirakinbar: 'Silverhorn', earlier name of Zirakzigil
Zirakzigil: 'Silvertine' (Celebdil)
Words
aglāb : spoken language
aya, ai- : upon
azan : dark, dim
baraz : red
bark : axe - baruk : axes
bizar / bizār? : dale or valley
bund : head
buz / būz : root?
duban : valley
dūm / tūm1 : delving, subterranean mansion, hall
dush / dūsh? : black, dark?
felak : tool for cutting stone
felek : hew rock
gabil : great
gamil : old?
gathol : fortress
gundu : underground hall
hund : hill?
iglishmźk : sign-language of the dwarves
inbar : horn
kheled : glass, mirror
Khuzd : Dwarf - Khazād : Dwarves
Khuzdul : Dwarvish language
kibil : silver (metal)
ma- : Passive participle? In Mazarbul
mazarb : written documents, records
mazarbul : records, as in Moria's Chamber of Mazarbul, and its Book of Mazarbul
mźnu : you (pl. accusative)
-n : one, person (suffix)
nāla : path, course, river-course or bed
narāg : black
Rukhs : Orc - Rakhās : Orcs
sigin : long
sulūn / salōn : fall, descend swiftly
sharb : bald?
shathūr : clouds
tum / tūm : hall?, delving?
thark : staff
turg : beard - tarāg : beards
-u : of
ūl : streams
-ul : of, genitive/patronymic ending
uzbad : lord
uzn : dimness, shadow
zahar : hollow?
zāram : pool, lake
zigil : silver (colour)
zirak : spike, silver
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 11 2017, 8:56pm
Post #6 of 17
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...and why I went along with the suggestion of using mellon instead.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 11 2017, 8:56pm)
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Barrel Rider
Rivendell
Jan 11 2017, 11:04pm
Post #7 of 17
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Great thoughts and suggestions.
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Thanks to everybody for your responses. I will pass all of this on to my sister and let her decide.
Sure, the films needed some language made up to fill out the dialogue. On my part, though, I'm glad they did --- as it really gives a great Middle Earth feel. If Prof. Tolkien had been available, I can't imagine he would not have made up a lot of his own, so I don't mind that they did that. Of course, it's really just personal opinion and not meant to make anybody upset. I can see both sides . . . but I really like the extra language lines added into the films! :)
Regards,
Sarah
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Jan 12 2017, 1:08pm
Post #8 of 17
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Instead of writing the Dwarvish word for "friend" in English letters, why not write the English word for "friend" in Dwarven runes?
Looking at Appendix E, it's possible to do, though your sister would have to decide if she's a Moria dwarf or not as they apparently used a different rune for "r".
But maybe the engraving is limited to English letters and not images? It would sure be ironic if letters could be engraved in stone but not Dwarven runes, since the latter were created to be carved in stone.
Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Jan 12 2017, 1:11pm
Post #9 of 17
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Without checking the accuracy of it, here's a link that allows you to translate words directly into runes: http://derhobbit-film.de/...generator.shtml#rune
Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Barrel Rider
Rivendell
Jan 12 2017, 1:44pm
Post #10 of 17
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Hi! Thanks! I'll send the link to that "rune creator" to my sister. She can engrave anything that she can draw, actually. She has a hand-held engraver and free hands all kinds of things. She's done runes, Elivish Tengwar, English, and all kinds of seals and things from the film art. She has done a number of stones with the Tengwar for "Mellon" on them, but this stone is for someone who is a real fan of Nori --- and she'd like to make a Dwarvish one. I think she's going to opt for the Neo-Khuzdul, but she might try them all and see what she likes better.
Here's a link to a blog entry showing all kinds of photos of her stones:
http://littlekumquat.weebly.com/...and-kilis-rune-stone
Thanks for the help!
Sarah
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 12 2017, 3:06pm
Post #11 of 17
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'Friend' in Old English runes:
'Friend' in Moria runes:
Hobbit Rune Generator: http://derhobbit-film.de/rune_generator.shtml
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 12 2017, 3:37pm
Post #12 of 17
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I think you misspelled the singular...
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... of this invented word. According to the linked site, the singular ends with an L, the whole word being related to an invented root M-R-L with a general meaning "love".
Hmm... but can one misspell an invented word 
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Barrel Rider
Rivendell
Jan 12 2017, 4:28pm
Post #13 of 17
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Thanks so much! I appreciate everyone taking the time to help with this . . . and I'll post a picture of the finished stone . . . as soon as it's done, that is. :)
Sarah
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 12 2017, 5:24pm
Post #14 of 17
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"I think she's going to opt for the Neo-Khuzdul, but she might try them all and see what she likes better."
- - - - - - - - -
Well it's ultimately her choice of course... and it's not like it's going to be written in stone anyway (sorry, couldn't resist).
The person who invented this word, explains (same link as above to Midgardsmal): "Assuming a Semitic style of construction, generating a Khuzdul vocabulary was therefore in principle as simple as producing a lot of triliteral roots and a suitable set of patterns, like (but not identical to) those found in real Semitic languages. In actual application, things were a little more complicated."
So my guess is that this root M-R-L falls into the category of being invented and assigned a meaning "love" in order to create a word for friend. It seems based on the love/friend "connection" found in Elvish for example [at the point the entry in Etymologies was written, we find a base MEL- "love (as friend)" along with words like meleth "love" and mellon "friend" for examples]... but that only goes so far to my mind... I mean, one could imagine a different root, assign it the same meaning, and you essentially are echoing the same "connection" here... yet the new invented Dwarvish word would, or could, be very different from the one on this list.
I don't mean to simplify what this person has done [and maybe there's other reasoning I don't know about]. He is a professional linguist and an arguable expert in Tolkien's languages. And despite that he admits that sometimes he was pressed for time to come up with film-stuff, I've no doubt that there's some measure of principles involved, and a general system the inventor is trying to abide by...
... but still, in the end, considering that you seemingly wondered if "nak' was legitimate in some way, I have to think, as Squire has posted already, that either the name of these inventions [here Neo-Khuzdul], or something about the credentials of being hired to work for the film, are possibly lending a "legitimacy" beyond, in my opinion, other kinds of fan fiction. Despite any scholarship involved, at some point the word itself has to come into Neo-being, so to speak.
In other words, at some point the actual form of the word came "out of the air" [even if, say, there's more to this regarding either Tolkien's creations, or real world languages], if based on what sounded and worked well enough to the person inventing it, and the system in which it's intended to fit.
As a side note, I'm not quite sure Tolkien himself would have invented all kinds of Elvish for the films [if he had been alive, and if he had been on board in the first place, that is] considering how he chose to punctuate his story with Elvish.
Anyway, I know this post seems to want to steer folks away from using Neo-whatnot...
...well... ahh... anyway
... again they are your stones afterall [or your sister's], and of course you can write whatever you want on them. Basically I just wanted to post something!
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 12 2017, 5:32pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 12 2017, 8:10pm
Post #15 of 17
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I think you misspelled the singular... ... of this invented word. According to the linked site, the singular ends with an L, the whole word being related to an invented root M-R-L with a general meaning "love". Hmm... but can one misspell an invented word
If I did then it was unintentional. This was from the post, "Dwarvish #8" by David Salo:
umāral friends (plural of umral) root √m-r-l love
Thanks for the additional notes. I didn't see the author's original post.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 12 2017, 8:15pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 12 2017, 8:41pm
Post #16 of 17
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Hehe, I didn't think you misspelled it on purpose. Nonetheless, Liz might want the corrected form, so thanks for rechecking. I guess I should have said ends with L instead of i, so it would be clear(er) it wasn't "umrai"... and also not "umrail."
Although umral is still the right form of an invented word
:breaks harp string due to too much plucking on it:
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 13 2017, 12:24am
Post #17 of 17
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But I know what you mean!
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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