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weathertop
Rohan
Jan 10 2017, 4:58pm
Post #52 of 61
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Smeagol and Deagol were supposedly hobbits (of the Stoor kind as far as online info tells me -- i vaguely recollect that he was described only as 'one of the river folk' in the books). How is it that Smeagol succumbed to the temptation of the ring so quickly if hobbits, in general, were somewhat resistant to the effects of the ring?
Enginerd
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 10 2017, 5:32pm
Post #53 of 61
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I think the phrase "of hobbit-kind" is probably the key
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Of course Gollum was not a hobbit at all when he first appeared in The Hobbit: he was a half-funny, half-scary monster in the best bedtime story tradition. Turning him into a hobbit - or, as Gandalf/Tolkien cleverly phrases it, "of hobbit-kind" - is one of the brilliant sleights of hand that enables the transition between the two books from bedtime story to high romantic epic. As you say, it's entirely out of character for a hobbit to strangle his best friend for a gold ring, but the flip side is that it's entirely in character for that hobbit to then take the ring underground for many centuries and never use it to try to take over the world. I would like to guess that what we might call "full hobbit character" only developed after the west-wandering tribes settled in the Shire, and that Smeagol's people were more primitive, crude, or on the edge of survival. That might explain the existence of criminality and/or barbarity in Smeagol that the Ring was able to appeal to. Maybe... On the one hand, when we hear Gandalf claim that Smeagol's clan was "a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had" (LotR I.2), it's harder to account for the emerging young Gollum. On the other hand, we see some support for his existence in the note (LotR I.9) that there are still quite a few "Outsiders", or 'tramp' hobbits in the Wild, who might be a bit coarser or more dangerous. And interestingly, Tolkien himself did address this paradox, in a slightly different context (the question of birthday gift-giving), in a letter to a critical fan. He said, "...the remigrant Stoors were going back to a wilder and more primitive life of small and dwindling communities; while the Shire-folk in the 1400 years of their occupation had developed a more settled and elaborate social life, in which the importance of kinship to their sentiment and customs was assisted by detailed traditions, written and oral." (Letter 214, ca 1958).
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 10 2017, 6:12pm
Post #54 of 61
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The underlying personality would also influence behavior. Smeagol seems to me originally a shifty figure, and as for Shire hobbits, one might wonder what Lotho Sacksville-Baggins or Ted Sandyman may have done if they'd seen Bilbo in possession of the Ring. Additionally, a rather humorous passage in A Long Expected Party takes on a rather dark tone with some thought: "Then they went round the hole, and evicted three young hobbits (two Boffins and a Bolger) who were knocking holes in the walls of one of the cellars. Frodo also had a tussle with young Sancho Proudfoot (old Odo Proudfoot's grandson), who had begun an excavation in the larger pantry, where he thought there was an echo. The legend of Bilbo's gold excited both curiosity and hope; for legendary gold (mysteriously obtained, if not positively ill-gotten), is, as every one knows, any one's for the finding – unless the search is interrupted. "When he had overcome Sancho and pushed him out, Frodo collapsed on a chair in the hall." One wonders how the "tussle" with Sancho would have ended if the Ring had been involved....
****************************************** “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!" "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may." "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" "But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!” "Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!" "No way!" "Way!" "Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!" "Cool!!" -Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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weathertop
Rohan
Jan 10 2017, 6:44pm
Post #55 of 61
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i forgot about the 'ruffians' and shifty ones. it's been a few years (5?!?!) since i've read the books. maybe it was just lucky that a well-adjusted family happened to be involved.
Enginerd
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 10 2017, 10:42pm
Post #56 of 61
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Given both their confirmed bachelorhoods I'm reluctant to call either Bilbo or Frodo entirely well-adjusted hobbit-wise. And though I'm tempted to think it was maybe their Tookish side that had something to do with their resistance I then recall how quickly Peregrin Took fell to the palantir's allure. You've raised a very intriguing question. Thanks!
****************************************** “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!" "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may." "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" "But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!” "Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!" "No way!" "Way!" "Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!" "Cool!!" -Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 10 2017, 10:43pm)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2017, 9:01pm
Post #57 of 61
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I suspect that Galadriel's message was a special case
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Involving Eru and resurecting Gandalf and the like. I'm not sure that I would like to trust that in every case!
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 20 2017, 9:06pm
Post #58 of 61
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The origin of Orcs is an unresolved question - JRR Tolkien did not
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answer the question though several ideas were considered. The nature of "magic" via staffs and crystals was not detailed.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jan 20 2017, 9:08pm)
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Feb 10 2017, 3:41am
Post #59 of 61
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Talking about who we want to see in a Silmarillion film adaptation, or even if there should be one.
I always follow my job through.
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Feb 10 2017, 6:57pm
Post #60 of 61
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Another one that's unresolvable? Whether or not the Peter Jackson films are good.
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I always follow my job through.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 10 2017, 9:02pm
Post #61 of 61
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The answer is obvious: "Yes" /
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****************************************** “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!" "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may." "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" "But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!” "Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!" "No way!" "Way!" "Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!" "Cool!!" -Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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