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enanito
Rohan
Jan 2 2017, 3:58am
Post #1 of 61
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Unresolvable Topics We Love/Hate/Ignore!
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I was thinking we could get the current Forum members to opine regarding an oft-discussed aspect of Tolkien’s writings. Since he did such an incredible, multi-decade effort to build this thoroughly complete world, it often strikes us as surprising when we encounter Mysteries.
Some of these Mysteries are things that (at least to oneself) seem fundamental to the world of Arda. Other unresolvable topics are (at least to oneself) essentially trivial, yet often rise to a level that occupies countless discussion board threads.
Some of these Mysteries we love even though others can't understand why. Some of them drive us up the wall when people continually broach the subject. Others we just ignore and can’t imagine why other people obsess about them.
So chime in on what you would consider the top “Unresolvable Topics We Love/Hate/Ignore”! Balrog Wings? Blue Wizards? It's confession time -- we're a tolerant bunch, so hopefully no nastiness ensues... State your claim and defend your honor 
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 2 2017, 12:32pm
Post #2 of 61
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Unsolved Mysteries of Middle-earth
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1. The Nature of Tom Bombadil
2. Balrog Wings (What Are They Good For?)
3. Beorn the Skin-changer
4. The Blue Wizards
5. The Disappearance of Radagast the Brown
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 6:24pm
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That's a splendid list of FAQ - I'd add "why don't the eagles...."
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6. Why don't the Eagles take the Ring to Mordor?
I think that's so evergreen because, on one level, it seems like such a good idea. It seems like The Wise should want to get the Ring into Mordor as quickly as possible, and an aerial incursion might also be the best way of dealing with the difficult defences and terrain.If I imagine myself playing The Wise in some form of LOTR game, then By Eagle To Mordor seems a very promising plan, unless there's some rule to stop me.
I have heard various fan theories - that the Eagles wouldn't co-operate; or that such an attack would be to likely to be expected and so the Ring would quickly be seized by a Nazgul Combat Air Patrol or other defences. Those seem reasonable explanations, but I expect the question gets re-asked either because there is no 'official' explanation (i.e. written by Tolkien), or of course because a new person has just thought of this, and wonders if it has been raised before.
I'm not sure if Tolkien answered this question himself in any direct way that would satisfy somebody thinking about this 'mechanistically' - as if the story were a war game. I wonder whether this is because LOTR is NOT a war game - in some way deep in the nature of the story Frodo and Sam have to simply walk into Mordor, and there encounter Gollum at the climactic moment. I can burble on about The Hero's Quest archetype in myths, or Jungian archetypes if it would help, but I don't suppose it would. So I do see that, in the absence of a discussion about it at some point in the book (Council of Elrond, maybe) this looks like a plot hole.
I' not sure when an Eagle-fan would have Frodo's pick-up occur? Too soon and it would shorten the story a lot, removing much good material. Too late - Eagle happens to fly over to hep Sam at the Tower of Cirith Ungol, perhaps - and it looks too much like a deus ex machina (which is a problem with the Eagles anyway, and/or their actual role)
There's also the theory that Gandalf did intend a rendezvous with the Eagles the other side of Moria, hadn't told anyone and tried desperately to pass on this plan by shouting 'fly you fools' as he drops into the chasm. I think that's clever, but I don't personally think that Tolkien intended that as a puzzle for the clever reader to work out.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 6:38pm
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Well not exactly 'ignore' - I've no problem with trying to explain why I think the questions can't be answered by text analysis or Tolkien studies:
1) How exactly does x work?
Often unanswerable, I think, because Tolkien is getting a lot of good literary effect by NOT explaining mechanisms.
2) What would happen if x fought y?
Usually unanswerable because it supposes the book is a bit like a game of Top Trumps, or some other game in which characters have quantifiable powers, and some rules to predict the outcome of a contest.
Furthermore, Tolkien seems to go out of his way to avoid such direct conflicts: often they:
happen 'off stage' (Gandlf vs the Black Riders at Weathertop; or much of Gandalf vs. Balrog)
are aborted (Gandalf vs Witch King)
aren't visibly very dramatic (Gandalf vs. Saruman at Isengard)
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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InTheChair
Rohan
Jan 2 2017, 7:22pm
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Plus there's also that the representation of Sauron is that of the great Eye!
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Concerning the use of Eagles, the book may not be very specific on the point, but I believe the answer is best expressed by Elrond.
Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.
There are two aspects of this, one is that a small hobbit approaching Mordor will not attract the eyes of Sauron, while one of the great Eagles approaching most certainly would.
The other is that borrowing some lore from the Silmarillion the great eagles might be representative of the eyes of Manwe.
Though I doubt there is any more definitive reasons than those. They are enough for me.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 7:27pm
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And since we're at the end of the read-through, I wonder if we should have rotating topics like this on a monthly basis, rather than tackle them all at once. Similar to our semi-regular "What's one of your favorite Tolkien quotes?"
So I'll limit myself to one and say: who or what is Goldberry? I think Bombadil makes more sense than this "River-daughter." Which river? And was she born from what we humans see as a river, or a river-spirit, like water nymphs in Greek mythology? Is there more than one of her? Where are the others? (Probably with the Entwives and all the socks that disappear in dryers.) Does she have any powers, or just like rain and singing?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 7:36pm
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My guess is Tolkien never thought of that
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since he kept the Eagles in reserve. What makes me guess that is how he has the Council of Elrond bring up Tom Bombadil as a possible caretaker for the Ring, and that prospect is examined, debated, and shelved quite definitively. There is also a vague mention of sending it "over the Sea" (meaning Valinor), but that's rejected too.
Then there's why can't the Elves make all the other Rings of Power but not destroy the One? Because they can't.
So I get the feeling that Tolkien, maybe in response to the Inklings or others, tried to think through as many alternatives for "send a hobbit alone to Mordor" as he could, and he worked through them all. He had to kill off Gandalf mid-story to make sure he didn't help Frodo all the way to Mordor, plus hijack Merry and Pippin. I think his heart was set on F&S (& Gollum) finishing the last of the quest, and he constructed the plot around that.
On the other hand, the Eagles don't show up that much in the book or in most action. They're like a secondary tool that Tolkien pulls off the shelf when he needs them, like rescuing Gandalf from tall places. They don't, for example, keep the Misty Mountains free from Orcs. They don't offer air support to the Fellowship all the way to Mordor--actually, not at all, there's just Gwaihir looking for them alone on the Anduin, and that's a small part of the quest.
So maybe the reason the Eagles don't take the Ring to Mordor is the same reason they didn't fly overhead from Rivendell to Caradhras to drive off Wargs and crebain--they just don't get that involved. We could also ask why the Eagles didn't carry Frodo from Bag End to Rivendell, or after Gandalf's return to Bree and his fight at Weathertop, why he didn't summon the Eagles to help Frodo get to Rivendell. I don't think they're all that available.
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 10:10pm
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Tolkien did address the "Eagle question"
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In his famous letter criticizing Zimmerman's 1958 proposed film treatment of The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien objects strenuously to the idea of using the Eagles as a taxi service. Evidently Zimmerman several times has the Eagles transport the Company to their next dangerous adventure, presumably to keep the film moving and avoid the tedium of representing the long walking journey that is central to Frodo's quest.
Here is how he frames his objections:
... he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately: the journey of the Ringbearers.
4. Here we meet the first intrusion of the Eagles. I think they are a major mistake of Z, and without warrant. The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd; it also makes the later capture of G. by Saruman incredible, and spoils the account of his escape.
15. At the bottom of the page, the Eagles are again introduced. I feel this to be a wholly unacceptable tampering with the tale. 'Nine Walkers' and they immediately go up in the air! The intrusion achieves nothing but incredibility, and the staling of the device of the Eagles when at last they are really needed. It is well within the powers of pictures to suggest, relatively briefly, a long and arduous journey, in secrecy, on foot, with the three ominous mountains getting nearer.
Z does not seem much interested in seasons or scenery, though from what I saw I should say that in the representation of these the chief virtue and attraction of the film is likely to be found. But would Z think that he had improved the effect of a film of, say, the ascent of Everest by introducing helicopters to take the climbers half way up (in defiance of probability)? - JRRT Letters, #210 to Forrest J. Ackerman, c. June 1958 As we can see, Tolkien's argument is really just like yours, and like anyone's who has thought through the role of the Eagles in the story: they are angels, who save those who have pushed themselves as far as possible without the aid of angels. To use the Eagles to fly to Mordor with the Ring is to beg the question of why they aren't used to fly Frodo to Rivendell, and Gandalf to Minas Tirith and back earlier in the story. To object that it doesn't make sense that the Eagles can do this now but can't do that then, is to lose sight of the essentially moral basis of the whole story. None of it makes sense on our own world's terms, but all of it makes sense on its own terms - one of which terms is that the Eagles are the messengers of the gods, not just friendly talking birds who can carry people through the sky.
One might compare them to the conveniently interstellar spaceships in Star Wars. They make a lot less sense than Tolkien's eagles, and never receive any objections from fans who 'get' that they too are just a 'dangerous machine', because that convention is more accessible in our pop culture than the convention of divine grace.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Jan 2 2017, 10:49pm
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is that the destruction of the Ring was only one task for the Fellowship. Eru's Song included the joining of Edoras and Gondor in marriage, the freeing of the Dead from the curse, the revelation of Saruman's allegiance (and his overthrow), the stirring of the Ents, the oportunity for Gollum to repent, etc - none of which would have happened without the Fellowship taking the long and slow way to Mordor and Gondor.
While Frodo et al were focused on the Ring, Eru had the bigger picture in mind - and he controlled the eagles.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jan 2 2017, 10:51pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 2 2017, 11:08pm
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Well it’s difficult to get a word in
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So I have repeated a quote from squire as I just wish to join in for some quick fun speculation (of course).
So maybe the reason the Eagles don't take the Ring to Mordor is the same reason they didn't fly overhead from Rivendell to Caradhras to drive off Wargs and crebain--they just don't get that involved. We could also ask why the Eagles didn't carry Frodo from Bag End to Rivendell, or after Gandalf's return to Bree and his fight at Weathertop, why he didn't summon the Eagles to help Frodo get to Rivendell. I don't think they're all that available.
Now everyone has well covered why the Eagles didn’t/couldn’t fly the Ring to Mt. Doom. And everyone has well covered why the Eagles could have/should have flown the Ring to Mt. Doom. And everyone has well covered why the Eagles wouldn’t/shouldn’t fly the Ring to Mt. Doom. And so forth . . .
Sooo, just a couple off-the-cuffs just for fun.
Firstly Tolkien tells us:
The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. The alighting of a Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains in the Shire is absurd . . .
-Letter 210
I jestingly mentioned sometime back that a Great Eagle once upon a time made a flyover of the Shire and saw a Hobbit stoop for a stone. No Great Eagle has since been seen west of the Misty Mts. (There REALLY isn’t any mention (that I know of) of a Great Eagle being seen west of the Misty Mts.)
Now old Thorondor had a wingspan of 180 feet – nearly the size of a 747 jetliner.
But it IS mentioned (somewhere) that the Great Eagles had diminished in size considerably since the First Age.
But do we know REALLY the size of the Third Age Great Eagles? Are they as depicted in the films or . . . ?
The path climbed on. Soon it bent again and with a last eastward course passed in a cutting along the face of the cone and came to the dark door in the Mountain’s side, the door of the Sammath Naur.
Then Sam saw that he was in a long cave or tunnel that bored into the Mountain’s smoking cone. . . .
. . . and there on the brink of the chasm, at the very Crack of Doom, stood Frodo . . .
-RotK, VI, 3
So, if I have my Sammath Naurs and my Cracks of Doom straight, the Sammath Naur was the “long cave or tunnel” (accessed through a “dark door”) which lead to the actual Crack of Doom (Sauron’s workplace directly above the fuming caldron of active lava).
So, (discounting flying Frodo and dropping him off at the entrance to the Sammath Naur) would a Great Eagle be too large to enter through this “dark door” and ruin Sauron’s day. If so, how would we or any of our heroes know that a Great Eagle would be too large to enter the Sammath ?
As has been mentioned the Eagles were used sparingly for many good reasons. I would only add as a supplementary thought that perhaps the Eagles were somewhat disassociated, or perhaps not that concerned. One wonders, even should Sauron gain the One Ring, what affect would this have on the freedom of these free-flying wonders?
Did I mention “off-the-cuff”?? 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 11:42pm
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That certainly seems a very practical objection
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Should Sauron figure out where the Ring is being taken (and Eagles would be a pretty helpful clue) then barring access to The Cracks of Doom should be very easy.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 2 2017, 11:49pm
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"One does not simply fly into Mordor..."
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Certainly a few sentences in Council of Elrond would have cleared it up (or left us debating whether Tolkiens explanation held water or not). So yes, quite likely JRRT didn't see this as a thing needing a specific ruling-out.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 10:13am
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I think that the "angelic" angle for the eagles is clearly there , but only clear if one has Letters and Silmarillion. It seems understandable to me that readers with only TH and LOTR to go on would not pick the idea up.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 1:10pm
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Well, is there any instance in the two books where the Eagles do not rescue a hero in distress?
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I think that's the key that Tolkien probably imagined that his readers would see. His Eagles never just 'give a ride' to someone. They always pluck them from some dire situation, whether it's an army under final attack from insuperable forces of evil, or a group of dwarves about to die, or a wizard or pair of hobbits who have no other way out.
The one exception, I think, is when Gandalf calls on Gwaihir to take him along to save Frodo and Sam. But even then, Gandalf makes it clear the journey is not about where he wants to go, but about rescuing people whom even the Eagles need some guidance to find.
I do think the persistence of 'why not use the Eagles to dispose of the Ring quickly and efficiently?' is not that Tolkien hasn't made it clear that that's not the way the Eagles work in the story (although you are right that he was coming from his Silmarillion ideas that his readers did not know of), but that we are used to a lot of other fairy stories and fantasy tales in which magical birds or flying creatures or tactical space-fighters are used for long-distance transportation. They are a common and helpful if fantastic device that is reinforced in our time by the relatively easy availability of real life flying machines.
My favorite such creature is the Gump in 'Marvelous Land of Oz', by the way!
squire online:
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Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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InTheChair
Rohan
Jan 3 2017, 6:12pm
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Ninja Stealth Eagle Gwaih! I glide through the air like whisper in the gale.
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The one exception, I think, is when Gandalf calls on Gwaihir to take him along to save Frodo and Sam. But even then, Gandalf makes it clear the journey is not about where he wants to go, but about rescuing people whom even the Eagles need some guidance to find.
There's some ambiguity about what happens when Gandalf gets rescued from Orthanc. Gandalf himself suggests that Radagast may have sent the Eagles to bear messages to Saruman. I don't know if Gandalf is just guessing, but the idea seem to take the eagles down a notch. The rescue of Gandalf also partly shoots down my opinion that an Eagle approaching Mordor with the ringbearer would have been spotted, since apparently Saruman never saw the eagle coming.
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enanito
Rohan
Jan 3 2017, 8:58pm
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1) Eagles - on my "meh" list
The whole topic of Eagles occupies much more discussion space than what I'd give it. I don't ignore it, nor disparage it, and have even happily opined on occasion. But even this thread itself, shows how much interest there is in Eagles in Tolkien's works, much more than what I'd expect.
Definitely not saying it isn't warranted, just an example of me being an outlier on something that stokes discussion for many! And I'm fine with that, having differing aspects of Tolkien's writings appeal to us on different levels, is part of what makes these Forums so great.
2) Blue Wizards - on my "ooh that's cool" list
Don't ask me why, and don't ask me if it's warranted But for some reason, whenever somebody posts something about the Blue Wizards, it just piques my interest. Radagast slightly less, but he's also an attention-grabber for me. Do the Blue Wizards really matter in Arda? Likely not much if at all, but that doesn't stop my fascination!
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 9:47pm
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I think the main reason is from my early fascination with Gandalf, whose magical powers and intrigues against Sauron are only vaguely outlined, never clearly defined, making him far more interesting to ponder than any hobbit or other character. (Don't get me wrong--I love the other characters. But they don't radiate mystery to me.)
We get almost no information on Radagast and only see Saruman as a villain, but that makes Wizards all the more complicated, leaving me to wonder if the Blues were like Radagast who went native, or evil like Saruman, or maybe they were killed and not resurrected, or who knows what. It really stems from me thinking if I knew more about them, I would understand Gandalf better.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 3 2017, 9:57pm
Post #18 of 61
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"You have my sword!"
"And my bow!"
"And my axe!"
"And my giant flying Eagles!"
(Well, maybe not.}
******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
Things that your paper never prints
They only speak of them in hints.
They have such lost, degraded souls,
No wonder they inhabit holes;
When such depravity is found,
It only can live underground.
I really dare not name to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 3 2017, 10:07pm
Post #19 of 61
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"The road goes ever on and on"
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"Roads are for journeys, not destinations."
-The Analects
As for flying, it's all about getting there.
So Eru multitasks! Thanks for that!
******************************************
That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
Things that your paper never prints
They only speak of them in hints.
They have such lost, degraded souls,
No wonder they inhabit holes;
When such depravity is found,
It only can live underground.
I really dare not name to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 3 2017, 10:08pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 10:34pm
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Here's hoping the old forums are restored / archived.
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At the conclusion of the second serial Reading Room discussion of The Lord of the Rings in 2004, drogo drogo started a very popular thread on this topic. It would be great to have access to that one again.
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 3 2017, 11:20pm
Post #21 of 61
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At the conclusion of the second serial Reading Room discussion of The Lord of the Rings in 2004, drogo drogo started a very popular thread on this topic. It would be great to have access to that one again.
And to my earlier list I would add: What happened to the Entwives and where did they go?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Jan 3 2017, 11:32pm
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'Eru multi-tasks' - thanks for that!
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A much more succinct way of putting it.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 4 2017, 12:35am
Post #23 of 61
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so, since I flit in and out like a, well, flibbertigibbet
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No, that's not correct, that's just alliteration.
Anyhow, since I have been away (yes, again!!), I haven't kept up. I see in Feedback there was a tremendous server crash and everybody held their breaths and we pulled through (thank God, as an internet without Torn is, in my opinion, too horrible to contemplate). But I don't see any further discussion of archiving.
Did anything ever come from the possibility of working on archiving somehow? I would still volunteer for that.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 4 2017, 1:54pm
Post #24 of 61
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Issues with the 'eagle' question
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Basically it is a bit too simple. A bit like the 'throw the Ring into the sea' option. And whilst quick it is fraught with peril. Remember that Sauron The Lord of evil was at the time the ruler of the strongest land in ME. He controlled most matters, would he really have not noticed a squadron of eagles with his Ring approaching Mordor? And as he had armies and navies, its not too much of a stretch to think that he had the air covered as well. Eagles had been used so many times he must have been aware of that possiblity.
Also, how where they going to deliver the Ring to the Eagles in the first place? There was no hotline between the Wise and the Eagles. No Palantier, Galadriels mirror, thought communication or even a cellphone number that Gandalf could ring. The way would have been to take the Ring to the Misty Mountains and just hope, I suppose. Anyone think that would have been a safe option?
And also, what Eagles are we talking about? The Eagles of the Hobbit? Those that spend half of time raiding the men of the vale for their sheep? Where they seriously going to take the One Ring all the way to Mordor without the potential of a fatal mishap? Or the Eagles of Lotr? The Gwaihir that bought the Mordor lies about Rohan I do not think would be totally trusted with such a task. All right those that arrived at the last minute at Mordor, maybe, but I still have my doubts.
The Eagles of the Silm perhaps? Noble, honest and wise defenders of Gondolin! They might have been the most risky of all. Would they all have been trusted? Or would they have bee tempted by the Ring themselves?
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 4 2017, 1:59pm
Post #25 of 61
(2532 views)
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I sort of agree with you about the Eagle question
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Can't Post
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I have a good mind to copy the post I gave above in this thread and just paste it any time this question comes up!
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