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Alveric
Lorien
Dec 25 2016, 11:05pm
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Tolkien-in-Chinese project, update
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Some years ago, I started analyzing one of the Chinese translations of the major works on Tolkien, indeed I consulted this forum at the time. I acknowledged the forum in the article on it which was published in the Journal of the Fantastic in the Arts ("Reading Tolkien in Chinese," 2014), focusing on just that one translation. Meanwhile I had other work to do, including a book on the films of Miyazaki which I have finished. So now I find myself with a sabbatical leave ahead of me, and my main job is this project, a book on religion, fantasy, and translation, dealing with broad philosophical themes but centering around my analysis of the three (yes, now three!) complete translations into Chinese. Needless to say, there will be much more to say about 3 translations than just one. Over the next few months I expect to become a bit more active on this forum, as long as there seems to be interest.
At this point, I am working on the different ways that the Ring tempts and tries to corrupt characters, starting with Galadriel, and then Sam (momentarily), Boromir, Bombadil (by contrast), and of course Frodo and Gollum. This will, I hope, become a chapter on moral corruption and the desire for power as it manifests in the translations. I have started on, and will develop more, chapters on cosmology, life after death, and the different "species" of Middle Earth. I gave a paper a while ago called "What exactly is an elf?" about definitional issues in translation, which I will expand not only to things like dragons, wizards, orcs etc. but also the other way round, Chinese terms like xian, jingling, wushi, long etc. The goal is a kind of map of exchange of the many fantastic entities from these two languages.
I'll share my progress, and I will have specific questions, as I go along.
best wishes,
Eric Reinders
Emory University
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 27 2016, 1:00am
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I look forward to reading what you have to post about it. Nice to see you around!
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Dec 27 2016, 1:01am)
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Ostadan
Rivendell
Dec 29 2016, 7:03pm
Post #3 of 11
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I trust you will refer to Tolkien's essay on the Nomenclature in Lord of the Rings?
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Guide_to_the_Names_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 29 2016, 7:42pm
Post #4 of 11
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...I assume you mean Mandarin as opposed to Cantonese? Or do you mean both?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Alveric
Lorien
Dec 29 2016, 8:44pm
Post #5 of 11
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Thanks for the comments,
Certainly I'll be sure to look at all the relevant texts on linguistic issues. At the moment I'm going through some of the appendixes, including where he's talking about how to handle various languages and their relation to English. With the added layer of Chinese, now.
I don't know if anyone has done a specifically Cantonese translation of LOTR. Or into Hakka or Min or any other dialects. I know there are characters and idioms in written Cantonese that differ from these translations, but I suspect these "standard" Chinese translations are marketed in Cantonese-speaking areas without any change. Most Cantonese-speaking Chinese can read these without any difficulty. If we turn to the spoken language, say in the dubbing of the films, that's another matter.
Question. Does anyone know an easy way to word-search LOTR? For example, I'm interested in all the uses of the word "doom"--an incredibly ambiguous word, which comes out as several different things in Chinese.
Eric
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 29 2016, 8:58pm
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Question. Does anyone know an easy way to word-search LOTR? For example, I'm interested in all the uses of the word "doom"--an incredibly ambiguous word, which comes out as several different things in Chinese.
Eric
Thanks for the explanation of the translation process. On to your question: Someone will surely correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Kindle version (and perhaps other digital editions as well) will allow a word search such as what you desire.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 29 2016, 9:00pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 29 2016, 11:30pm
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Translating the untranslatable parts - not language, but geographical and mythical concepts
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I would be interested in hearing more about the difficulties in translating the cultural and geographic specifics, that Tolkien based on northwestern European mythologies, to such a different culture and geography. For instance, "sailing west" from Europe and/or England, to a paradise beyond the sunset, resonates deeply with Western readers. Tolkien doesn't have to explain it - he just knows his readers will 'get it'.
Assuming no one is going to flip the map of Middle-earth for Chinese readers , for whom the Sea is distinctly to the East where the sun rises, how does a translator hope to convey that aspect of Middle-earth's fundamental mythology? (Though why not reverse the map and the cardinal directions, now that I think of it? Prevailing winds are one obstacle, of course...)
Likewise might be the problem with the idea of "barbarians/evil/Mordor" to the East, and the South; in China that threat has historically been found in the north and west. Then there is the idea of a lost universal Empire and vanished race of Kings, following the fall of the Roman civilization, which haunted medieval Europe; China's concept of the permanence of Empire and the Mandate of Heaven that assigns the Kingship to those that earn it, seems like quite a challenge for translators to overcome in conveying the romantic/nostalgic magic that Tolkien spins over his intended Western readership.
I imagine that, if the plot and characters are still well presented, a reader from East Asia (or any other non-Western civilization) would still enjoy the story, as a fairy-tale kind of adventure. But I am curious if translators to non-English, or non-Western, cultures feel any frustration with reproducing the deeper themes that Tolkien so deftly plays with?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Alveric
Lorien
Dec 30 2016, 2:25pm
Post #8 of 11
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Indeed, as you say Squire, the cardinal directions are loaded! "West" has a number of cultural associations in China not present in English. The fantasy literature most familiar to Chinese kids is Journey to the West (Xiyouji) and its many permutations, in which what comes from the West is Buddhism, and Xuanzang goes West to find the source of Buddhist wisdom, and also encounters the Queen Mother of the West (Xiwangmu), a Daoist deity in whose garden grow peaches which grant immortality. The West and the setting sun is also symbolic of the Pure land of Amitabha, where devotees are reborn after they die--in fact, I found a case in one of the translations where Thror "perished" becomes Thror "returned to the West," which is on the one hand merely a common euphemism (like "went to meet his maker"), but also derived from Pure land beliefs. Now, when we map these and other associations onto what Tolkien intended and/or what Western readers might have in their minds, it gets nuanced in very interesting ways.
I've been watching for anything interesting in the translations of "Easterlings" but so far, nothing much.
I think the Mandate of Heaven works pretty well in Middle Earth, at least loosely. Unworthy rulers tend to preside over the loss of their kingdoms, and rulers of great virtue are rewarded with power. Aragorn's "Return" to take the throne coincides with the start of a long peaceful era. The deification or at least idolization of the great kings of old fits as well. Pre-modern Chinese historiography has always been primarily moral and conservative, and the same is true of Tolkien's history.
Eric
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Alveric
Lorien
Jan 13 2017, 12:08am
Post #9 of 11
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I did a little research in the OED on this word, "doom." It's very early, from the 10th century. The earliest meanings are legal judgements by rulers, usually bad. Gradually, by the 14th century the idea of a judgement or undesirable fate you cannot escape got generalized to something more existential, especially our inevitable death. And from there, death-like things such as ruin, destruction. Interestingly, the noun form is used from the start, whereas the verb form is several centuries later. Now, I haven't done my word-search yet, but it's my impression Tolkien uses is primarily (or totally?) in the noun form. This is your doom, this doom is laid on you; rather than, this act has doomed me. Which would fit what we know about Tolkien's linguistic preferences, right?
If we follow the history of the English word, we can see how a legal judgement slowly became an idea of unavoidable mortality. But still, those are different ideas, so I've been tracking how the 3 Chinese translations have translated the word. So far, I find mingyun (fate, destiny -ish concept), suming (fate, it's use din the term suminglun, fatalism; literally the long-standing fate), and a variety of paraphrases, including one that means something like "the ultimate ending which makes people heave a sigh" (!)
Mount Doom, as a proper name, is a little different. Here we get either something like Mount End-of-Days (morishan) or Mount Misfortune (eyunshan).
Eric
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 13 2017, 1:46am
Post #10 of 11
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“Doom, doom” came the drum-beat and the walls shook.
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I can see how interesting your work is. The example above shows that onomatopoeia (having a word provide its own sound effect) can also be a challenge in translation:
“Mingyun, mingyun” came the peal of the bell and the walls rang. Not quite as ominous, I feel!
You are quite right that Tolkien favors the noun form of doom throughout LotR. A quick look showed me that it appears hundreds of times, including as a proper noun (The Doom of Mandos, The Ring of Doom, Mount Doom), whereas the verb form, almost always the past participle doomed, is used a few dozen times at most.
Don't forget the rather erudite pun that Elrond pulls off at his Council, where he prounounces "... this is the doom that we must deem..." Deem is a verb whose roots are the same as those of doom: judging. From one dictionary site:
"Middle English demen, from Old English dēman; akin to Old High German tuomen to judge, Old English dōm doom"
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Alveric
Lorien
Mar 22 2017, 11:00am
Post #11 of 11
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There's a fair bit of attention to stars in LOTR, whether in phrases like "a star shines on our meeting," or the elves' "most beloved" star, and the evenstar imagery, etc. Yet is it really worship?
So I'm exploring the possibility that in Chinese these star references might seem more fully religious than in the English. Because in Daoism, there are many deities associated with stars, the best-known being the "three stars" (the three gods representing prosperity, status, longevity).
Are the stars deities in LOTR?
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