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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 24 2016, 3:43pm
Post #1 of 22
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***6th LOTR Read-through: "It's Over. It's Done." - Final reflections?
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What are your parting thoughts from this read-through? What surprised you or changed your reading of the book? What was fun, interesting or otherwise notable?
Something I thought might be fun as as a finisher is to award a “Character of the Book” - a little like the Player of the Match awards that are given out in some sporting contests. Here’s my personal set of nominees:
Book I - Frodo. Who else could it be? Perhaps unexpectedly for readers who have come from The Hobbit, Bilbo quickly bows out and we have to get used to Frodo. He works his way out of the Shire and across the dangerous lands to Rivendell.
Book II - Boromir: I’m influenced very much here by this read-through. I hadn’t previously appreciated Boromir’s role beyond ‘person most likely to suggest something of which Gandalf disapproves’. When his motives and character are thought about more carefully, he comes across as a much more interesting character. And of course his attempt to take the RIng at the end of Book II is a crucial point in the plot - it sets the different members of the Fellowship on the courses that turn out to be so vital for everything to work out.
Book III - Aragorn. From a low ebb of feeling he’s failed as leader of the Fellowship, Aragorn serves Rohan brilliantly and prepares the ground for his rescue of Gondor. By the end of the Book the conflicted Ranger is no more, and he’s accepting the palantir of Orthanc, with which he’ll shortly dare to challenge Sauron, his first move in a new strategy of creating a distraction to give Frodo a chance.
Book IV - Smeagol-Gollum. His (their?) uneasy alliance with Frodo and Sam is essential for them to get to Mordor, of course, but also tells us a lot about the Ring. The book moves steadily towards the climax of Gollum’s nearly-inevitable betrayal. In past readings I’ve found this book hard going so I got a lot out of reading it in company this time.
Book V - Eowyn. An intriguing character - brave, proud loyal and honorable yet easily under-estimated as just a love interest. But her story, from increasingly desperate royal nurse to military hero encapsulates some of the book’s key themes, I think.
Book VI - Sam. As Frodo disintegrates, the expedition through Mordor relies more and more on Sam. Then of course he’s instrumental in repairing the Shire and completing the Red Book.
So those are my nominations. Who would you pick and why? Or, if you were allocating ‘Three Stars’ (as I believe is done in Ice Hockey, allowing three individuals to be celebrated) who are your other two?
And all and any other reactions are also welcome!
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 25 2016, 4:28pm
Post #2 of 22
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For me, Gandalf looms over Book II: he makes all the decisions (including telling Boromir he's wrong all the time), he's their strongest resource (in intelligence--opening the Hollin gate, in force--fighting the Balrog and Wargs, and in direction for their group--they wind up at Lorien as intended, whereas it's not clear that Aragorn or Legolas would have taken them there, and Gimli and Boromir most certainly wouldn't have, whereas the hobbits knew nothing about it).
I like your pick of Eowyn especially. I've always liked her overall, and I have to say overall, because at times she's vexing: a little too self-pitying when Aragorn doesn't fall for her wooing, vexing again at the Houses of Healing when first she wants to leave, then doesn't, and first doesn't want Faramir, then does--make up your mind, woman!). But her personal arc is profound, her courage is unparalleled, and even if she seems selfish at times, her willingness to reach out to Merry--whom she hardly knows--and of course her devotion to Theoden in the midst of overpowering supernatural fear, well, you just can't call her selfish, can you? And as you said, I think she exemplifies key Tolkien themes. Her battle with the Witch-King was similar to Frodo's awakening of courage in the Barrow to fight the Wight, and akin to other moments like the hobbits taking back the Shire from the ruffians, and Sam taking control of the later quest when Frodo was wasting away. LOTR is about people rising to the occasion (or failing to, like Denethor & Saruman).
Smeagol-Gollum: wasn't it Ursula LeGuin who said something about how he was both a beloved and despicable character? We're all glad when the Balrog, Witch-King, and Sauron die, but is anyone truly jumping up and down for joy when Gollum dies in the lava? I wouldn't want to be in the same room with him, or even within 100 miles of him, so I can't say I'm personally fond of him, but he plays such a key role in the book, and is a mirror for Frodo in many ways as well as a lens for seeing into the nature of the Ring, plus for pete's sake, he's a hobbit, and you can't hate hobbits! Anyway, I definitely have mixed emotions about him, but if some Tolkien heir came along and proposed a LOTR 2.0 where Gollum was expunged from the book, I would be rioting in the streets in protest, and I wouldn't be alone.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 26 2016, 11:12pm
Post #3 of 22
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Gandalf is an interesting Book II choice
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He certainly dominates the first half of the book. The Council of Elrond agrees the policy that Gandalf wants, and he intervenes to have the junior hobbits M& P included in the Fellowship. Everything seems well under control until the setback at Carhadras, and then the high-risk and nearly-successful trip through Moria (Or maybe the trip is a success, just at the highest personal cost?)
Then it's chapter V, half way through the book, and he's dead. Gandalf continues to be a very important influence,
but perhaps for a while he's a negative one. Aragorn wants to take Gandalf's place guiding Frodo to Mordor,rather than going to Gondor as he knows he's meant to do.
Finally, Gandalf has a contribution to the book that isn't clear until later: a crucial intervention to assist Frodo to take off the Ring at Amon Hen.
Hmmm - thinking about Gandalf seeming like a figure who is controlling events in Book II: It's no longer like that when he reappears. There are too many events going on in too many places. Gandalf certainly influences what goes on around him, but I think he's more someone improvising and reacting, rather than the architect of a detailed master-plan. Contrast Saruman, who can't update his elaborate master plans fast enough to survive. Maybe there's a point there about going with what's 'meant' to happen?
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 27 2016, 1:07am
Post #4 of 22
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Yes, I think we revealed the lack of a master plan
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when we discussed the various what-ifs about Frodo getting to the Crack of Doom. So, he couldn't throw it in the fire in Bag End, and he was expected to in Mt Doom? And none of the Wise foresaw him succumbing to the Ring's temptation?
But it all worked out as Gandalf had faith it would, and maybe there are plot-driven reasons why things happened, yet faith swoops in at the last minute like an Eagle to rescue Gandalf from any perceived folly.
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 30 2016, 3:58am
Post #5 of 22
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"Mystery Characters of the Book" - my quirky favorites
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I suspect 'Character of the Book' as a topic hasn't got much traction because your choices are so clearly correct, or nearly so, as to shut down competing lists.
But if I may, I will offer not "Character of the Book" (most important or key character) but "Mystery Character of the Book": a character who I find most quirky, interesting, or under-emphasized. A character I wish we had learned more about, outside the story if necessary because it's often perfectly clear why they did not need or get more book time!
Fatty Bolger, by Giacobino
Book I - Fatty Bolger. He comes across as a baby who Merry has contempt for, but later in the chapter we see he has the right "Fire, Foes, Flee!" stuff in him and at the end we learn he was a heroic Robin Hood against the Ruffians. And after all, he is said to have been one of Frodo's firmest friends - he just happens to be the one who is not right for the full quest. Did Frodo ever give him a second thought after leaving the Shire?
Celeborn, with Galadriel and Frodo, by Tim Kirk
Book II - Celeborn. Talk about getting shoved aside, here is the guy who was clearly set to be Elrond mark 2, the Fellowship's wise counsel and provider after Gandalf's fall, and lo and behold he disappears into the woodwork as soon as his powerhouse of a wife takes over the interview, the decision-making, and the interest and awe of fans ever since. I don't much care about the long debates over whether he was this clan of Elf or the other (as UT fans are likely to do), but I would dearly love to know more about how and why a potential Tolkien alpha male actually functions as the only house-husband in the entire book.
Treebeard introduces Quickbeam to the hobbits, by Eiszmann
Book III - Quickbeam. In one page he shows us that Ents can be loveable in a way that Treebeard just isn't allowed to be. He's the hip, slightly daffy 'Tra-lally' Ent to the old guy's sonorous 'We still remember we who dwell' hymns to the Good Old Days. I never believed Treebeard loved his old Entwife with half the passion that Quickbeam showed for his beloved Rowan trees, and that told me more about the race than all of those long-winded history lessons. I wish the hobbits had had more chances to hang with him, and that he had made it to the interview with Saruman at the end of the book.
The Fallen Southron, by Eiszmann
Book IV - The dead Haradrim soldier. OK, morbid and impossible, sure. But even projected through Sam's sympathetic musings, the question of the poor man's character opens up a gulf of doubts about the Bad Guys of Sauron's realms and puppet states. Do we actually know anything about the East and the South, except that the Dark Lord rules there? And we meet hosts of evil, irredeemable, yet anti-heroic orcs in the latter half of the epic - but we never, ever, meet a living Man who serves as a soldier or ally of the Black Land. Book IV is like that: between Gollum (your poster boy, quite rightly), the guards of the Morannon, the Dead of the Marshes, the grim Rangers of Henneth Annun, the haunted city in the valley, and the ghosts of the Gondorians whom Shelob took down, this book overflows with questions about the dead, the evil, and the evil dead: as I noted elsewhere recently in defense of Book IV, it's our real introduction to Mordor and the nature of the Ring - not Book VI.
Imrahil Tends His Nephew's Wound, by Eiszmann
Book V - OK, so sue me for being conventional, but who doesn't love Prince Imrahil and want to know more about him? With almost no basis at all except the music of his and his principality's names, I (like a lot of people, I think) associate him with pure Arthurian romance, a la Walter Scott, in the midst of the vaguely decadent Byzantium of the South Kingdom. The Elvish connection is almost a cop-out - let Imrahil be Imrahil, I say, without any help from those hapless Lothlorien refugees. And I can just imagine what he thought of Boromir...
Arwen with Aragorn and Frodo, by Eiszmann
Book VI - This is the book where Arwen finally gets to sing, and to speak, and we get almost none of it. I have often wondered why Tolkien, who usually loved to write such things, did not choose to give us the song that she sang for Frodo and Aragorn under the blossoming sapling of the White Tree. To me, it would have been the perfect coda to the earlier passages about the sterility of the City at the end of the Third Age, and to the general lack of music in Books V and VI up to that moment, not to mention a companion piece to Aragorn's hymn to Gondor that he peals off so effortlessly in Book III. She was never really in Tolkien's heart, I guess. She remains a minor character, and major question-mark, of the entire 'Return of the King' story - and no, it isn't good enough that the 'Tale of Aragorn and Arwen' fills in some of the gaps, hidden back there in the appendices.
Any comments are welcome - I already noticed that Anke Katrin Eiszmann has a similar taste in minor characters!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 30 2016, 12:13pm
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Tolkien is very good at these, so there should be many to choose from.
I thought that a friend of mine once put it well when she said you sometimes read about a character, place or situation and think "Wow, I bet there is a good story there - I wonder whether the author knows what it is?"
I think the author doesn't necessarily always know (just knows that this truly belongs in the story and can carry that conviction to the readers). Sometimes, of course, the author might go and work it out either on their own volition, or because of editorial or reader requests. And of course, coming up with feasible explanations for the remaining mysteries is one of the ways we have fun here. But sometimes the explanation is less satisfying than the mystery!
A mystery I like is the Pukel men, those old, much weathered statues that decorate the defended way up to Dunharrow. I wonder whether they have any connection to the Druadin that we meet later, and I also wonder how that complex Dunharrow site came together - the defended way up to the standing stones, and the entrance to the Paths of the Dead. Are they (as is quite common in real-life sites, such as Stonehenge, say) many centuries of re-purposing a place, perhaps by more than one culture.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Meneldor
Valinor
Dec 30 2016, 4:09pm
Post #7 of 22
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Isengar Took 1262-1360 (said to have "gone to sea" in his youth)
I smell a whole Treasure Island style adventure right there. If I wrote fanfic, that would be the one.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 30 2016, 4:32pm
Post #8 of 22
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Agreed that the original list is hard to counter-argue :) But here's a few characters I am intrigued with and wish I knew more about:
Book 1 Glorfindel. Dude confronts and then pursues multiple black riders, who flee from this solitary Elf until they are at full strength of 9. He then plays an important speaking role at the Council, and at the dinner is seated next to Elrond, in a corresponding place of importance akin to Gandalf's. And of course his being revealed as a Power, a white figure that didn't grow dim even as Frodo was slipping away into the wraith world.
Sure Glorfindel spans Books 1 and 2, but being introduced right at the end of Book 1, that's where he grabs my attention.
Book 2 Amroth. Yet another tragic figure, how Legolas describes the fates conspiring against Amroth and the North wind driving him away from his love who remained on the coast (guess elvish boats had no oars???).
Book 3 Uglúk. Not to re-start the whole "do orcs have souls" thread :) but Uglúk seems to have a bit of depth to him that possibly the Mordor orcs do not. Terribly morbid, but there seems to be some background on him that would prove interesting to know.
Book 4 Númenoreans on the coast. Not a person per se, but I'm intrigued about the stories Faramir refers to about the Númenoreans who settled all along the coast, yet fell into evils and follies, became enamored of the Darkness and black arts, and gave themselves over to idleness and ease. These must have been southern kingdoms as we see nothing north along the coast between Gondor and the Havens -- how much Númenorean blood was in the people of Haradwaith that fought against Gondor?
Book 5 Dernhelm. I really wish I knew more about him, he seems like a great... wait, what's that? He's a she? Eowyn? What?!?
OK, I"ll go with the Mouth Of Sauron, seems like somebody with a pretty cool story to tell of how he achieved his place of prominence in Sauron's hierarchy...
Book 6 Cirdan. We get a bit more from the Appendices, but all we see of him in LOTR proper is (I believe) the rather quick exposure at the Havens. Who is this guy? What's he been doing all these years? Just hanging out, or fighting the good fight in his own fashion? Please tell me more!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 30 2016, 8:40pm
Post #9 of 22
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Book 5 ...OK, I"ll go with the Mouth Of Sauron, seems like somebody with a pretty cool story to tell of how he achieved his place of prominence in Sauron's hierarchy...
Yes, Squire seems to have forgotten about the Mouth in his earlier post:
And we meet hosts of evil, irredeemable, yet anti-heroic orcs in the latter half of the epic - but we never, ever, meet a living Man who serves as a soldier or ally of the Black Land.
I would count the Mouth of Sauron as a living Man, though we learn precious little about him. Still, we find out more about his background than about the dead Haradrim soldier whom Sam wonders about.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 30 2016, 9:03pm
Post #10 of 22
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Well, he's a lot more than a soldier.
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Of course the Mouth is a Man, but my curiosity was about the more common soldiers, residents, or slaves of the Dark Lord, whom the dead Southron represents (at least he does in Sam's imagination; for all we know he was the General of the entire Haradrim army!). The highest ranked orcs we meet are just captains of outposts or raiding parties, hardly of equivalent rank to Sauron's "Lieutenant of Barad-dur".
I think Tolkien deliberately shied away from confronting the concept of an entire population of a country of Men being, essentially, Bill Ferny (who is a better exception to my statement, I guess). Thus my qualified phrasing "serves as a soldier or ally".
Not that old Mouthy isn't, himself, a prime Mystery Character and well worth anyone's curiosity!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 30 2016, 10:16pm
Post #11 of 22
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What about the fox from chapter 3?
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The ultimate mystery character! Mind, speaking of that creature, I wonder how many of the animals in the tale people can think of as characters.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Jan 1 2017, 11:52am
Post #12 of 22
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I only joined in at the very end so I can't comment on the whole read-through. But since everyone is making lists here I'll add in a list of, for each book the character(s) that we don't see, and where it might be possible to spceulate why.
Some of these are more archetypes than characters and some might more or less equate to a potential characters.
Book 1
Rosie Cotton.
Though there is little time to dwell on Sam and his possible infatuations before they leave the Shire, and possibly Tolkien didn't think her up until much later in the process, so therefore book 1 also gets:
The barmaids of The Prancing Pony. Well Hobbit are vaguely modern english in style. Admittedly all that I ever read about the subject is a character description of one of C.S. Lewis character of whom it is said that she had a bust that would do credit to a Victorian barmaid. So I guess the general impression conjured up is that of fairly volumous woman with a roomy shelf.
The Prancing Pony is a combined Hobbit-Human establishment, mostly frequented by males, so one might have thought that some female staff would have been apprieciated. But all the helpers at the Prancing Pony are little odd males with names like Hob and Bob and Nob.
Does that reflect a heroic age in which women did not do public work? Or is Tolkien deliberately going for the sexless approach?
Book 2
Galion, the drunken elf.
The wood-elves from the Hobbit were quite the party-animals, even getting themselves drunk into oblivion. The elves of Lorien suggest none of this festive spirit. Why do they altogether seem so much more serious? I know one part of it might be that they are mourning the loss of Gandalf. Does Galadriel otherwise hold them under a stricter set of proprietal rules than Thranduil did?
Book 3
The Captain of the hoards of Isengard
It might be a deliberate choice to keep the enemies impersonal and characterless as a menacing and unreasonable ant-migration, but given Tolkiens love for making up names, isn't it a bit conspicous that we have not even the hint of a name for whoever led the Isengarders at Helms Deep? The only two Captains name from Isengard we are given, Ugluk and Mauhur are already dead, none of the Dunlendings that I can remember were given names, and Neither Saruman nor Grima was present at Helms Deep.
So who was?
Book 4
Evil Grip, Fang and Wolf.
Frodo and Sam walk past in close vicinity to two major guard-towers on the western borders of Mordor. Does not one of them have any guard-dogs? Or Guard-wolves? I know that a lot is made of the snuffling abilities of the little Orcs, and that in all likelyhood wearing the ring would also mask the wearers scent from hunting wolves, but a small kennel in the basement seems like one of those things that might have been useful nonetheless.
Book 5
The Real Dernhelm.
One supposes that Eowyn must have made a deal with him. At least we have no scene of him catching up the host, with a swell in the back of his head saying Sire, somebody clubbered me down from behind and went off with my armour and weapons.
Alternately. That errand rider from Dunharrow, who would come breathless catching up the host to report to the king that the Lady Eowyn has gone missing and none know where to find her. Pehaps she convinced the real Dernhelm to don her togs and a wig and wave to the people from the balcony now and then.
Book 6
Radagast
Last we saw him he was riding off as if the nine were after him. By this time they certainly aren't. And in the north Erebor has been relieved, and Galadriel has thrown down the walls of Dol Guldur. So wouldn't this be a time for old Radagast to come galloping back, to take part in the festivities?
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Jan 1 2017, 12:00pm)
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 4:25am
Post #13 of 22
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They went MIA, just like myself over the last six months.
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In fact, when I saw such an excellent post by an unfamiliar nick, my first instinct was to welcome you to the RR; but then I realized you could have been around for several months already, so I had to check out your profile...
And where did the Radagast image come from?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 1:06pm
Post #14 of 22
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Welcome back, Sador. And Happy New Year. //
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 3 2017, 1:44pm
Post #15 of 22
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It is lovely to be welcomed back. May you and yours have a wonderful year, too.
I was really intending to answer nowiz's excellent post, but I can't find the time today. I'll try to tomorrow.
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 4 2017, 12:45am
Post #16 of 22
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Not mystery characters, but mystery places
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I missed the end of the discussion, I am heartily sorry.
There are of course scads of mystery places mentioned but unexplored throughout the book, and there are tantalizing little arrows on the maps for the great outer reaches. And I would really like to look out a high tower window in Dol Amroth, down to the Sea.
I do love that Prince Imrahil and the Swan Knights.
But what I'd REALLY like to see is a human house in Bree. I'd like to meet the humans that live there. I'd like to shop at their shops. I'd like to meet my hobbit neighbors at the Harvest Festival.
I always want more Bree.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 4 2017, 4:29pm
Post #17 of 22
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"It needed a week's answer, or none."
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Something I thought might be fun as as a finisher is to award a “Character of the Book” - a little like the Player of the Match awards that are given out in some sporting contests.
At least as far as I am concerned - old timers here probably remember my fascination with characters and narrators in LotR.
To your question, there are several possible criteria. The easiest one is to pick the narrating focus of each book - meaning the character though whose eyes and conscious Tolkien tells the story. This is in keeping with what I sometimes call The Red Book Conceit - Tolkien's inference that LotR is actually an adaption of the book Bilbo and Frodo have written. But the Conceit doesn't always work - and even when it does, it isn't always consistent with the story: if Frodo is the author, his should be the point of view whenever he is present at the events, and if Merry is the actual author of several books and treatises, his narration would probably be more prominent than Pippin's. But anyway, the dominant "narrating focus" in each chapter or book has clearly a claim to being the most notable character.
But I suppose you mean which is the most important or interesting character in each book. Squire has suggested the "mystery" character of each, and IntheChair the most notable absentee. I will try to answer like you did, even if I will ultimately agree with only one of your picks. Also, one should consider the antagonists in each book.
Another important thing to consider is the setting of each book. After all, Middle-earth itself is a critical part of the book, and at least according to one notable critic (Brian Rosebury), it is possibly the critical one. As squire summed up his approach here:
In one page, Rosebury quickly pots The Lord of the Rings. That is, he synopsizes the setting and plot of the story, focusing on the land of Middle-earth, its major inhabitant races, and the role played by Sauron as mortal threat to the freedom of the world. We learn of the Ring, its power for evil, and the necessity for Frodo to take it to Mordor and destroy it without using it himself. As Rosebury drily concludes, “Eventually this quest is accomplished and Middle-earth is duly saved.”
He admits, of course, that this is radically simplified, leaving out “major characters” and “innumerable complexities”. But he asserts that “something of the appeal” is already apparent even from this minimal information: a rip-roaring but simple plot drawing on the best “story-telling traditions” and the importance of the setting, the “circumstantial expansiveness of Middle-earth itself.”
Also, for many people the books are coloured by their experience of watching Jackson's films. I do not intend to discuss them directly, but I do refer to them occasionally based on serious and dilligent readings of Tolkien, and I assume that the vast majority of those who might read my posts are pretty familiar with them - far more than those who would ever check past discussions I link to.
So this really might be a week's answer; I hope to begin tomorrow with the separate books.
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 5 2017, 8:36pm
Post #18 of 22
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In Book I, we are introduced to hobbits as a folk. Bilbo is one individual, and we can never be sure just to what extent he is typical of hobbits, or of early 20th century young Englishmen - I suspect the latter, as I don't think Tolkien ever planned to make hobbits an important component of his developing Legendarium until readers clamoured for a sequel with them! The only other hobbit we can construct an image of (at least, the only one I could) is his father, Bungo. Perhaps Gollum, too - but does he count? Even in the early version of Riddles in the Dark, I hardly see any real affinity between him and Bilbo. It takes a Gandalf to do that - and even then, Frodo is skeptic. It is not until the famous scene in The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, in which
Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face. The gleam faded from his eyes, and they went dim and grey, old and tired. A spasm of pain seemed to twist him, and he turned away, peering back up towards the pass, shaking his head, as if engaged in some interior debate. Then he came back, and slowly putting out a trembling hand, very cautiously he touched Frodo's knee—but almost the touch was a caress. For a fleeting moment, could one of the sleepers have seen him, they would have
thought that they beheld an old weary hobbit, shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time, beyond friends and kin, and the fields and streams of youth, an old starved pitiable thing.
that I was convinced.
For a speculation on the origins of Gollum, see here.
Narrative Focus - clearly, the focus is on Frodo, that "jewel among hobbits" (as Gildor's folk say). Interestingly enough, the story takes time to "zoom in" on him (as opposed to the beginning of The Hobbit) - beginning with Bilbo, but the first spoken words of the book are by anonynous Shire-gossips, as if the story was told by a nosy reporter. The Shire-gossips make an appearance at the respective beginnings of the first three chapters (The Shadow of the Past actually begins with a report of what would be remembered in generations hence - which at least serves as a comforting "spoiler" that at least the Shire will be ultimately saved). The first spoken words by a named character are by Bilbo to Frodo, and the first actual conversation is between the Gaffer and his audience at The Ivy Bush. The Gaffer's voice will reappear later, when Sam reports his impression of the Black Rider, and will be abused by Gandalf at the Council of Elrond ("Many words and few to the point").
We get to Frodo after Bilbo disappears, when we actually get a glimpse of what he is thinking - for the first time in the book. After that, we have the short but poignant scene between Bilbo and Gandalf (which is described as if by an outside observer, with no hint of either's thoughts), and then the focus returns to Frodo - for nearly all of The Fellowship of the Ring.
In a few occasions, we see the story from other POVs - in The Shadow of the Past we read of the scene at The Green Dragon, and get a glimpse into Sam's mind (and a dark hint that there is more, which we could speculate about - on the second reading, we jump to the conclusion that it was his part in Merry's conspiracy; but it couldalso be the Gaffer's deteriorating health and/or his suit for Rosie Cotton's hand); even before that, when we read of his friends, we learn that Pippin and Merry suspected that he had dealings with the Elves; and before Gandalf's long tale, we get a rare hint into the wizard's thoughts - he is thinking about Bilbo!
In Three is Company we read of the Shire-gossips' talk about the sale of Bag-end, and a hint of Lobelia's thoughts; and the beginning of the evening with Gildor is surprisingly descibed from Pippin's POV, mentioning how he would later tell the tale (a technique Tolkien will repeat in Treebeard, again with Pippin); in A Short Cut to Mushrooms we twice read of Sam's feelings towards Farmer Maggott, and in A Conspiracy Unmasked we do not get anything similar (perhaps Fatty Bolger's attitude towards leaving the Shire, but not really) - but we are treated to an account of the origins of Buckland.
The Withywindle scene is described through Sam's eyes (as Frodo falls asleep) - and the next time we get anyone but Frodo's POV is Sam again, at Bree - both regarding the tall houses and the beer. There are also, of course, the hobbits' dreams at Tom Bombadil's house - but they could easily be related as they described them to each other later.
A Knife in the Dark begins with the dramatic attack on Crickhollow, beginning with Fatty Bolger's POV, continuing with a "neutral" description, and ending with a bit of the Riders' thoughts! Later on, the story keeps to Frodo, but most of the time it is neutral recounting - with the short episode of Sam and Pippin finding the firewood in the dell. And A Flight to the Ford could all be told by Frodo (although most of it focuses of the hobbits collectively).
Middle-earth - apart of the Gladden Fields, which are mentioned in Gandalf's tale but with no clear indication as to where they lie (and the tale of his interrogation of Gollum is even less localised), Book I happens all in Eastren Eriador - the vast land between the Shire and the Ford of Bruinen.
I must cut myself short (I won't complete the discussion of Book I tonight anyway, it seems) - but the main point I have to make is how much the pleasant land descibed in chapter II of The Hobbit (the trolls coming down from the hills seem like an aberration) has become desolate, sinister and menacing. This does clearly set the tone for the rest of the book.
I will have to discuss the characters in a seperate post.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 5 2017, 9:17pm
Post #19 of 22
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I'm glad to be getting a week's answer, rather than none :) //
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Can't Post
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Luckily there is no ongoing Ruffian emergency in the Reading Room (as far as I know), so it's fine to take time to answer.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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sador
Half-elven
Jan 6 2017, 12:39pm
Post #20 of 22
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Book I - "Just when a wizard would have been most useful, too"
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- Dori and Nori, Roast Mutton.
After the previous post, it is time to consider just who is "the" character of Book I. I will set out by saying, I don't consider Frodo to be that.
I don't see much of character developing in Frodo in this book. Like the first part of The Hobbit, Book I is a picaresque - a book in which the hero goes to several places and encounters several adventures, perhaps gaining a little in skill, but less so in character. He might be the center of the action, and the one who unites other characters together - but like Alfred Almers in Little_Eyolf up to the fifth act, he seems quite unequal to the responsibility. Gandalf heaps prise on him for his determination to set out to Rivendell. but after he had coaxed/managed Bilbo twice, I tend to be suspicious. Frodo's one great moment is his decision not to forsake his friends at the Barrow, but even this is an echo of Bilbo's heroic and often unnoticed decision to return to the goblin-tunnels (see here). Also, I can;t have Frodo the major character in all four books he appears, can I?
But it is clear that "the character" of Book I has to depend on his relation with Frodo.
Antagonists - there are two major antagonists here: the Black Riders, and the Ring itself.
As for the Ring, it is never clear how much of an antagonist it is in itself. True, Gandalf had asserted that "A Ring of Power looks after itself", but we never really know this for sure. In two cases, Frodo might be actually speaking for the Ring ("Verily I come, I come to you" on Amon Hen, and "Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" on the slopes of Orodruin) - but in each case it might be Frodo himself, and neither of them occurs in book one. It often seems to be a natural scapegoat to blame for any failure of the hero. But (as Prof. Shippey observed) this is one of the great strengths of LotR - we are never are quite sure if Evil is really an autonomous force, or merely a projection of the darkness inside us.
The Black Riders (even before we realise they are the Nine - how many did on the first reading?) are the more obvious antagonists: from the first time they appear, at the very beginning of the actual Quest (the first two chapters are arguably an exposition, a prelude to the real Adventure), they seem to shadow Frodo and his friends; they destroy the illusion that the Shire is safe, and turn the around our feeling about the whole of Eriador (in the appendices we find out that the area was never safe, but to a first-time reader who has read The Hobbit before, this is a nasty discovery); even seemingly independent adversaries, the Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight, are only encountered because the Riders have forced Frodo off the Road (in The Hunt of the Ring, published in Unfinushed Tales, Tolkien seems to have concluded these were also awakened by the Witch-king - although I feel that dispelling the ambiguity about this weakens the story); the mange to inflict actual harm on Frodo; and they are satisfyingly defeated, and seemingly destroyed, at the very end of Book I.
Mystery Characters - squire mentioned Fatty Bolger, who is indeed one of my favourite characters. I have never written about him at length, except for NEb's discussion of family trees (with a bit about Folco Boffin, too).
Farmer Maggott is also mysterious - his connection with Tom Bombadil only enhances the questions regarding him.
Another curious character is Bill Ferny, about whom I've once made a wild_speculation (the context is a discussion of the apple-throwing scene) - I note that he becomes a sort of captain of the ruffians, without being either a half-orc or a trusted Saruman henchman for long. There truly is something in that obnoxious person, and even Aragorn seems to grudgingly respect him, giving him credit for self-knowledge rather than cowardice "He knows the land round here well enough, but he knows he is not a match to me in a wood".
But I think that if you ignore Tom and Goldberry (mystery characters par excellence), the most intriguing minor character is Gildor. See question 12 here. And this,_too.
On the other hand, Glorfindel leaves me cold. I never loved super-heroes that much - not even if they were of the Noldor. But I do see his importance to the legendarium (if not quite to LotR).
And last - IntheChair mentioned the absence of Rosie Cotton from this book. Perhaps she was one of the unspecified other things Sam had on his mind after arguing with Sandyman - but she is absent, from Book IV even more than from Book I (more on that later). And she's no barmaid! The young daughter of an important farmer would not be an undergraduate student working part-time, but a wannabe lady. She is more likely to occupy herself with music or gardening - Tolkien does hint at the later (in the unpublished-until-HoME epilogue), and it would actually provide a better setting for the spark between her and Sam, seeing that he was the gardener brother of her eldest brother's wife.
- Drumroll -
Sam and Pippin provide very intersting focus characters for re-reading, as both will develope in the rest of the book. But the near-absence of narrative focus on Merry s intersting.
In fact, Merry is a very intersting character - from the first chapter, in which as a mere teen he is already Frodo's confidant after Bilbo leaves, and later in the organising of the house in Crickhollow, and the flight from it. He later still comes across as the most reliable hobbit when under Strider's guidance - but he falls short at the Withywindle, the Barrow and Weathertop (even if I could make something from the uniqueness of his experiences in each). But still, as a leader of the hobbits in the absence of Gandalf, he fails miserably. But perhaps we shouldn't have expected him to succeed. Aragorn, more so - but even he sometimes comes short.
This post has become too long already, so I won't belabour my previous point - I just want to conclude that I think the towering figure of Book I is the absent Gandalf. In the first two chapters, he forces Bilbo to leave the Ring to Frodo, and then makes Frodo set out on the Quest - even if the experiment of throwing the Ring to the hearth at Bag-end showed that Frodo would be unlikely to cast the Ring into the Fire (many have argued that it would be downright impossible, and this position is supported by some of Tolkien's later Letters; I contend that as hobbits are human, there is never a complete negation of free will).
Later, throughout Book I, we go through the first stage of the Quest without his guiding hand. All the time Frodo is thinking of him and what he would do, and asks about him in nearly every chapter (except for The House of Tom Bombadil, which is an anomaly anyway). This is even acknowledged by Tolkien, in his Synopsis preceding RotK:
The first part, The Fellowship of the Ring, told how Gandalf the Grey discovered that the ring possessed by Frodo the Hobbit was in fact the One Ring, ruler of all the Rings of Power.
This is about half the tale of Book I, and Gandalf is one of only three characters named in the Synopsis.
But for me, the true hero of Book I will always be our long-absent friend Curious, for his single-handed discussion of this book six years ago. Was there ever any one like him?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Jan 7 2017, 7:10am
Post #21 of 22
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It's wonderful to see so many of my favorite TORn characters in the RR! I love this thread about mystery characters too. The post about the dead Haradrim soldier reminded me of a fanfic I read once about an orc, separated from his troop, living in Ithilien after the war. I don't remember the details, but after a year or more of clean living in that beautiful region, he was so changed that he was mistaken for an Elf.
Where's Frodo?
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demnation
Rohan
Jan 10 2017, 1:10am
Post #22 of 22
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Overshadows a few characters that we think of as more prominent (her brother) and IMO one of Tolkien's best written characters. He seems to take a particular interest in her as a writer (made more interesting by the fact that she is one of the few female characters) which is why I agree her journey encapsulates some of the key themes.
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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