|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Dec 16 2016, 9:00pm
Post #1 of 20
(8094 views)
Shortcut
|
|
**LotR Discussion: Appendix A.III, ‘Durin’s Folk’** - 5. ‘Honey, could you forget your engrossing crafts for just one second and help me braid my beard for tonight’s mithril-smelting seminar!”
|
Can't Post
|
|
For our last day of discussion of The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A.III, on the Dwarves, we see an assortment of short notes, and a family tree with a chronology of the major events. Here is a brief summary:
Summary of pp. 360-362: From notes on the Dwarf-women to Gimli’s departure over the Sea
As was already noted when we read about Thrain’s resettlement in the Blue Mountains, the only dwarf-woman named in the entire book is Dis, his daughter, and mother of Fili and Kili of The Hobbit adventure. According to Gimli, females are about a third of the population: that is, there are two males for every female. They do not leave the dwarves’ settlements unless they absolutely have to, and they look just about exactly like dwarf-men. So some Men’s ideas that Dwarves don’t have sex and “Dwarves grow out of stone” are just plain wrong!
But the sexual imbalance does have consequences: without a secure homeland, a Dwarf clan is in danger of not reproducing itself. Dwarves are both monogamous and picky: the women don’t always marry for lack of getting just the right mate, and the men don’t always marry because they prefer to focus on their craft work.
Moving on, we review the life of Gimli, Gloin’s son: he is famous for having accompanied Aragorn, here called King Elessar, throughout the War of the Ring, and for his great friendship with the Elves, specifically Legolas of the Wood Elves and Lady Galadriel of Lorien. After the War, Gimli led some of the Dwarves of Erebor to the Glittering Caves in Rohan and became Lord of that people. This dwarf-settlement contributed to the rebuilding of both Rohan and Gondor, making in particular the magnificent new mithril and steel gates of Minas Tirith.
Legolas also brought some of his people to the south, settling in Ithilien, which became “once again the fairest country in all the westlands”. Legolas went over the Sea after Elessar passed away. And in “one of the last notes in the Red Book”, we read that Gimli may have sailed to the Elvenhome with Legolas. This is said to be quite remarkable, both that a Dwarf should choose to leave Middle-earth, and that the Valar should allow him to do so. The note speculates that he wished to see Galadriel again, and that she may have had the influence with the Powers to allow him to do so. The closing line of this Appendix is: “More cannot be said of this matter.”
Inserted into this section of the text is a full-page genealogy chart of the “Line of the Dwarves of Erebor”. It is said to have been “set out by Gimli Gloin’s son for King Elessar.” Accompanying the chart is a table of important dates of events in this Appendix; and a note on the connections to this line of the other companions of Thorin in The Hobbit.
Questions
Twice we are reminded that Dis is the only female Dwarf whose name has been recorded. Yet she is not a character – we know nothing about her, only her family relation to some of the male heroes of this saga.
A. Why bother to give Dis a name, and call attention to her in this Appendix?
Dis by Pinkmilkbutt
Tolkien’s somewhat infamous invention of Dwarf-women -- manlike, bearded and asymmetrically few in number -- has always aroused controversy, inspiring questions like:
B. Is that what he really meant? How could an anthropoid race have a skewed sex ratio? Is this extreme racial differentiation from Elves, Men, and Hobbits important and/or necessary?
I am actually a little curious about the distinction between why the males and females mate even less frequently than the numbers alone would allow. The women are characterized as focused on getting the Right Man, or none. The men are characterized as sublimated Great Artists, with no time for dames. Another way of putting it is that both the females and males are radically low in sex drive, but only females define their lives primarily in terms of their relationship to males. And yet …
C. Why aren’t very many of the women also “engrossed in their crafts” and so “do not desire marriage”? If females are so alike to males in every other way, how else should we imagine them spending their time, once they “desire none [husbands]” or “desire one that they cannot get, and will have no other”?
On the other hand,
D. Why should the Dwarven population be at risk, despite the inherent sexual dysfunction of the race, if those Dwarf-women who do marry proceed to have dozens and dozens of children over their several-century life-span, raising their horde-like families with the help of hosts of hairy aunts, biddies, and old maids who have no children or husbands of their own?
Moving on to Gimli, we read of his renown for being one of the Fellowship, hanging with the future King, and bonding with the Elves. All the other Dwarves in this account are “renowned” for kicking some orc-butt and general cantankerousness.
E. In whose eyes is he “renowned” here: the other Dwarves for whom “Elf-friend” is perhaps not a compliment, or the Men (or hobbits or whoever) who are compiling this outsider’s summary of the history of Durin’s Folk?
Gimli and Legolas in Minas Tirith by Price
Gimli makes several comments in The Lord of the Rings about the craftsmanship of the Men of Gondor and Rohan. Here we read that “he and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan”. The Gate of Minas Tirith is the only one mentioned, and that was foreshadowed in the main story.
F. What other kinds of work would the Dwarves do for the Men of the Fourth Age?
G. Why not mention the artistic goal that Gimli so famously sets himself: the tending and display of the Glittering Caves?
I don’t like to be a crank, but this purports to be a narrative that focuses on Durin’s Folk, so exclusively that Bilbo’s name never even comes up and the One Ring is mentioned once.
H. So why tell us here about Legolas’ parallel move south, his achievements, and his departure over the Sea after Elessar’s death?
I. Why does this section only call Aragorn “King Elessar”?
Finally, it ties back to Gimli. According to “one of the last notes in the Red Book”, Gimli is said to have sailed west with Legolas.
J. Why does this bit get almost as many fan-tears as Sam doing … the same thing? (When did Manwe start posting guards on the beaches to stop the influx of inappropriately love-struck mortals?)
Welcome Gimli son of Gloin in Valinor by Amidamaru
This final paragraph is written in a slightly different style: note phrases like “We have heard tell”, “If this is true, then it is strange indeed”, “it may be that”, and “More cannot be said of this matter.”
K. The last question on the text is the same as the first: Who wrote this Appendix? Who is the intended audience?
Well, our reading of Appendix A.III is finished, but I do want to take a quick look at the Family Tree on page 361. A full size copy can be inspected by clicking the link in the caption below:
“The Line of the Dwarves of Erebor as it was set out by Gimli Gloin’s son for King Elessar” (click to see full size copy)
L. Was Durin VII, who hasn’t yet been born, always placed at the bottom of any royal family tree?
M. Why place Dain Ironfoot in the main line, so that Thror’s line appears to be an offshoot?
Elsewhere (in Unfinished Tales, I think) Gimli complains that he was left behind in the Quest of Erebor, for being too young. But he was 62, and only 15 years younger than Kili.
N. Why did Fili and Kili get to go along, the only ones in the ‘next generation’?
Borin’s line, to the right, provided several of Thorin’s cousins who were part of the Quest. Thorin’s line is off to the left (as noted in M. above). But those two are the actual “Dwarves of Erebor” in the sense that they moved back there after the Grey Mountains were infested by the dragons. Gror’s line, the one in the middle, is really the “Dwarves of the Iron Hills”.
O. Why separate Borin’s line from Thror’s in this chart?
The other place with major family tree action is Appendix C, which displays the hobbits in all their genealogical glory. And if I remember, the Silmarillion has several family trees of the major houses of the Elves and Men of the First Age. But Tolkien only gives us written chronologies for the royal houses of Numenor, Gondor, Arnor, and Rohan in the earlier parts of Appendix A.
P. Who or what do you have to behead, quest for, wage war on, fall in doomed love with, or defy the Gods on behalf of, to get your people a family tree in Tolkien’s legendarium?
Well, that’s it for this week’s discussion! Thanks again to all who have been answering and will answer in the coming days. I always enjoy reading all your thoughts and I will try to throw a few of my own in if I have time. For this coming week, our last, I believe it’s 'all-ey all-ey in come free' – please contribute whatever posts you want on the remaining appendices, the book as a whole, or any old detail that interests you! And Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all in the week after!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 16 2016, 10:26pm
Post #2 of 20
(8035 views)
Shortcut
|
Twice we are reminded that Dis is the only female Dwarf whose name has been recorded. Yet she is not a character – we know nothing about her, only her family relation to some of the male heroes of this saga.
A. Why bother to give Dis a name, and call attention to her in this Appendix?
It might be worth noting that 'Dis' is also the singular form of 'Disir', female guardian spirits in Norse mythology, sometimes appearing in the form of female ancestors. They are sometimes characterized as 'fate-goddesses'. Tolkien was certainly aware of this, but I don't know what significance (if any) this holds for the sister of Thorin Oakenshield. However, Dis was not only sister to Thorin, but mother to Fili and Kili, and that may be enough to justify including her by name.
Tolkien’s somewhat infamous invention of Dwarf-women -- manlike, bearded and asymmetrically few in number -- has always aroused controversy, inspiring questions like:
B. Is that what he really meant? How could an anthropoid race have a skewed sex ratio? Is this extreme racial differentiation from Elves, Men, and Hobbits important and/or necessary?
This gender disparity emphasizes how alien the Dwarves are compared to both Men and Elves, perhaps due to the muddled vision of the Vala Aule when he created their race. He even failed to craft a specific mate for Durin, the first Dwarf-father.
C. Why aren’t very many of the women also “engrossed in their crafts” and so “do not desire marriage”? If females are so alike to males in every other way, how else should we imagine them spending their time, once they “desire none [husbands]” or “desire one that they cannot get, and will have no other”? Apparently some Dwarf-women do get so involved in craft (and business?) as it is said that some never come to desire marriage. On the other hand,
D. Why should the Dwarven population be at risk, despite the inherent sexual dysfunction of the race, if those Dwarf-women who do marry proceed to have dozens and dozens of children over their several-century life-span, raising their horde-like families with the help of hosts of hairy aunts, biddies, and old maids who have no children or husbands of their own? Based on the genealogy of the Line of Durin, Dwarf-women do not bear anything close to 'dozens and dozens of children over their several century life-spans'. From what I see, Dwarf-siblings tend to appear, on average, about five years apart from each other. Perhaps that is a clue as to the reproductive cycles of Dwarf-women. Moving on to Gimli, we read of his renown for being one of the Fellowship, hanging with the future King, and bonding with the Elves. All the other Dwarves in this account are “renowned” for kicking some orc-butt and general cantankerousness.
E. In whose eyes is he “renowned” here: the other Dwarves for whom “Elf-friend” is perhaps not a compliment, or the Men (or hobbits or whoever) who are compiling this outsider’s summary of the history of Durin’s Folk? Stated or not, Gimli was probably also renowned for his battle-prowess. However, aiding in the defeat of Sauron was certainly nothing to sneeze at. Gimli makes several comments in The Lord of the Rings about the craftsmanship of the Men of Gondor and Rohan. Here we read that “he and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan”. The Gate of Minas Tirith is the only one mentioned, and that was foreshadowed in the main story.
F. What other kinds of work would the Dwarves do for the Men of the Fourth Age? Well, aside from repairs and improvements to Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith, the Dwarves must have certainly contributed to the restoration of Annuminas and Dale. Perhaps they also constructed a new bridge at the crossing of the Greyflood at Tharbad and aided in repairing the main roads in Arnor. G. Why not mention the artistic goal that Gimli so famously sets himself: the tending and display of the Glittering Caves? Doesn't it get a mention? At the least it is noted that Gimli founded a new Dwarf-colony at Aglarond. I don’t like to be a crank, but this purports to be a narrative that focuses on Durin’s Folk, so exclusively that Bilbo’s name never even comes up and the One Ring is mentioned once.
H. So why tell us here about Legolas’ parallel move south, his achievements, and his departure over the Sea after Elessar’s death? Because the fates of Gimli and Legolas are tied together. I. Why does this section only call Aragorn “King Elessar”? Because that is Aragorn's formal name as the King of the Reunited Kingdoms. Finally, it ties back to Gimli. According to “one of the last notes in the Red Book”, Gimli is said to have sailed west with Legolas.
J. Why does this bit get almost as many fan-tears as Sam doing … the same thing? (When did Manwe start posting guards on the beaches to stop the influx of inappropriately love-struck mortals?) It's a great image and a testament to the strength of their friendship. This final paragraph is written in a slightly different style: note phrases like “We have heard tell”, “If this is true, then it is strange indeed”, “it may be that”, and “More cannot be said of this matter.”
K. The last question on the text is the same as the first: Who wrote this Appendix? Who is the intended audience? The primary source seems to be Gimli himself, but it might be supplemented by the recollections of the surviving Dwarves of Thorin's company and their offspring and other assorted notes. Elsewhere (in Unfinished Tales, I think) Gimli complains that he was left behind in the Quest of Erebor, for being too young. But he was 62, and only 15 years younger than Kili.
N. Why did Fili and Kili get to go along, the only ones in the ‘next generation’? Perhaps the decision has less to do with Gimli's physical age then with other factors. At that age, he might have been deemed too reckless and immature in his judgement. In "The Line of the Dwarves of Erebor" Tolkien also notes: "Of the other companions of Thorin Oakenshield in the journey to Erebor Ori, Nori, and Dori were also of the House of Durin, and more remote kinsmen of Thorin: Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur were descended from Dwarves of Moria but were not of Durin's line." I"ve speculated that Bifur, Bofur and Bombur might be partly descended from those Dwarves of the Blue Mountains that came to Moria after the loss of the cities of Belegost and Nogrod.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 16 2016, 11:13pm
Post #3 of 20
(8028 views)
Shortcut
|
A. Why bother to give Dis a name, and call attention to her in this Appendix?
Perhaps Tolkien liked the name. Though it is strange it should be the only female dwarf name whose translation is ever revealed. No indication why.
B. ... Is this extreme racial differentiation from Elves, Men, and Hobbits important and/or necessary?
Probably as a way of explaining why the Fourth Age will belong to Man, and why we see so few Dwarves nowadays, since they aren't sailing away like the Elves did.
C. Why aren’t very many of the women also “engrossed in their crafts”
We're not told they aren't. I wonder if they went to war also in times of need.?
F. What other kinds of work would the Dwarves do for the Men of the Fourth Age?
Stone work, metal work, secret doors. Safes, Ereborian Curios. Weapons, Toys (or was that Dale?), Fireworks perhaps. Business opportunities for barbers.
H. So why tell us here about Legolas’ parallel move south, his achievements
To show that they kept living nearby each other, and near Aragorn? Explain why Gimli followed Legolas in the boat. Wonder if Gimli ever married? Wonder if Legolas did.
I. Why does this section only call Aragorn “King Elessar”?
Composed by one of his subjects afterwards based on old material provided by Gimli. Perhaps.
L. Was Durin VII, who hasn’t yet been born, always placed at the bottom of any royal family tree?
It's an interesting idea.
M. Why place Dain Ironfoot in the main line, so that Thror’s line appears to be an offshoot?
If Dwarf maps place North to the left, then perhaps Dwarf family trees are always drawn upwards, starting with Durin the last?
Gimli complains that he was left behind in the Quest of Erebor, for being too young. But he was 62, and only 15 years younger than Kili.
Judgin by that family tree Frerin was killed at Nanduhirion beeing only 42. Those must have been deperate times.
P. Who or what do you have to behead, quest for, wage war on, fall in doomed love with, or defy the Gods on behalf of, to get your people a family tree in Tolkien’s legendarium?
I guess you'd need to be a main character in the LotRs or the Silmarillion. No doubt there were extensive Numenorean trees, but they might be a pain to draw.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 16 2016, 11:16pm
Post #4 of 20
(8025 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Disenfranchised (or Disrespect, maybe?)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It might be worth noting that 'Dis' is also the singular form of 'Disir', female guardian spirits in Norse mythology, sometimes appearing in the form of female ancestors. They are sometimes characterized as 'fate-goddesses'. Tolkien was certainly aware of this, but I don't know what significance (if any) this holds for the sister of Thorin Oakenshield. However, Dis was not only sister to Thorin, but mother to Fili and Kili, and that may be enough to justify including her by name.
I do agree- poor Dis seems to appear only as a sort of dynastic glue, needed to link Thorin to his nephews. Does the name give away that as much a device as a character?
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 16 2016, 11:17pm)
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 16 2016, 11:17pm
Post #5 of 20
(8023 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Perhaps all places were restored again though.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Dwarves must have certainly contributed to the restoration of Annuminas
Would it be Annuminas or Fornost? As a simile Minas Tirith certainly gets restored, but I don't remember mention of Osgiliath.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 16 2016, 11:37pm
Post #6 of 20
(8019 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I. Why does this section only call Aragorn “King Elessar”?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As an in-story explanation I'm going to theorise that it's a telltale that the writer here is a Gondorian, adding a note to material collected by earlier writers. I'm going to guess that the primary narrator is Bilbo, because of all the Red Book compilers, it's Bilbo who would have had the best sources on dwarves, and maybe the most cultural sympathy. He might also be able to relate, from discussion with the dwarf himself, Thorin's thoughts while at the anvil.
clearly Frodo/Sam/Elanor must have added the Quest of Erebor excerpts- perhaps wanting to correct or balance Bilbo's tendency to see his past self as somewhat ridiculous, and to play down his contribution into an amusing Tale for Hobbit-children, if any could be found to listen.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 16 2016, 11:51pm
Post #7 of 20
(8018 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien makes it clear in Appendix B "The Tale of Years" that Aragorn made Annúminas "by Lake Evendim" the capital of the North-kingdom. That doesn't preclude Fornost from also being restored. We don't know to what extent the Dwarves might have been involved in the rebuilding, but the Blue Mountains were close by and the Naugrim still dwelling there might well have had a hand in it. And Erebor could have certainly sent both engineers and workers to Eriador.
As a simile Minas Tirith certainly gets restored, but I don't remember mention of Osgiliath.
I don't think we should interpret the account here as being complete and comprehensive. Dwarves might well have contributed to the possible restoration of Osgiliath. Tolkien just doesn't give us enough information to be sure one way or the other.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 16 2016, 11:56pm)
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 17 2016, 4:17pm
Post #8 of 20
(7991 views)
Shortcut
|
|
What did Gimli do for those 120 years?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Besides the obvious already quoted.
G. Why not mention the artistic goal that Gimli so famously sets himself: the tending and display of the Glittering Caves?
You touch upon a sore spot, a pet peeve. Gimli the buffoon of the Fellowship, Gimli the tossed Dwarf – NO! NEVER! Gimli the thoughtful, Gimli the wordsmith, Gimli the lover of the inanimate and animate (his affectionate exchange w/ Galadriel at the gift-giving in Lorien) beauty – YES!
His eloquent words bear another look and I would ask everyone to take five minutes and reread Gimli’s description to Legolas of the Aglarond, “one of the marvels of the Northern World”, in The Road to Isengard:
’. . . immeasurable halls, filled with an everlasting music of water that tinkles into pools . . . ‘
‘. . . and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel. There are columns of white and saffron and dawn-rose, Legolas, fluted and twisted into dreamlike forms . . . ’
‘No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness.’
‘. . . tap by tap—a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day . . .’ So, yes, I reckon Gimli, soon to become the Lord of the Glittering Caves, spent many of those 120 years tap tap taping in the Caverns of Helm’s Deep.
So, do we give Gimli his just do? I for one do!
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Dec 17 2016, 8:34pm
Post #9 of 20
(7979 views)
Shortcut
|
|
'do not desire marriage' vs 'desire no [husband]'
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thanks for so thorough a response. Just a quick note about C, the question of why women dwarves are not said to be 'engrossed in crafts' the way the men are. You suggested that we must assume some are, because like the men "some never come to desire marriage" (as you put it). I suggest that that is at the heart of my question: the writer doesn't say the women don't desire marriage, he (!) says they don't desire any particular man. It's only the men who don't desire marriage itself.
What's the difference? As I offered in the OP, the text distinguishes between the women who don't get married, as not finding a man they want, and the men who don't get married, as not wanting a woman at all due to their commitment to their art. "Been looking, can't find a mate, oh well" is different from "Don't want a mate, haven't been looking, why do you ask?". The implication is that the males and females think about marriage differently.
And that difference captures a deep stereotype about men and women in our own traditional western society: that women define themselves in terms of their ability to secure a marriage, while men see marriage as a good but not necessary part of a successfully lived life. And of course, we can guess that Tolkien believed in this difference and in its validity, judging by the comments he makes in his letters (see #43, for instance, instructing his son Michael in the ways of women and men).
But I confess I was disappointed when I first caught this small detail in the Dwarves appendix, because up til then I was impressed by Tolkien's varying the sexual ratio in a race as yet another way to account for the lack of overpopulation in Middle-earth (e.g., the Elves mate for life and have only one or two children, by nature; the Ents have divorced completely and lost their opposite sex; Hobbits are utterly unexplained in this area!).
The way I saw it, Dwarf nature is inherently undersexed - they're just not that interested in each other, as instanced in the fact that they look exactly alike and so have no basis for enhancing physical difference as a method of attraction. Yet the women, being in the minority, are the ones in a position to choose as they will.
Now, Tolkien quite unsurprisingly doesn't imagine taking this anywhere that a more modern author like LeGuin might. One obvious consequence would be a natural development of polyandry (many husbands to one matriarchal wife); another is a use-it-or-lose-it breeding pattern (whereby a successful marriage produces dozens of children to make up for the lack elsewhere in the clan, as I proposed in my question D - very common in many non-human species where mating is difficult).
But given that he links the two sexes' temperaments so explicitly -- both are relatively uninterested in the other -- I really noticed when he also explicitly dismissed the idea that females who don't or won't marry would naturally become skillful smiths, crafters, and artists just like the men. I should have thought, given the premises of cross-sexual racial identity, that that was an easy step to take. Instead, I found the women who don't find "their man" condemned to social nothingness, relative to the honor given to the men who prefer making art to making love. That puts Dwarf society right back to being just a kind of armed monastery of shorter and crankier Men suffering from an inexplicable dearth of interested females.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 17 2016, 8:56pm
Post #10 of 20
(7969 views)
Shortcut
|
|
43,830 cautious taps later, I reckon the caves looked pretty fine //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 17 2016, 9:07pm
Post #11 of 20
(7974 views)
Shortcut
|
I do like that idea that Durin VII might traditionally be added to the bottom of the family tree: after all, he is expected.
I wonder why VII is the last? And I wonder whether this is another significant dwarven 7 to go with the 7 Rings, or just a coincidence.
Maybe the family tree is laid out as it is, with Dain's line central, merely as a graphical convenience? Because if the numbers of children, doing it this way makes for a pleasingly near-symmetry. Or perhaps it has a political significance- I'd agree that Dain emerges as the Hero of this Appendix, and the tree is said to be drawn by Gimli, who might be accustomed to seeing the current royal house of Erebor placed centrally?
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 17 2016, 10:36pm
Post #13 of 20
(7966 views)
Shortcut
|
LOL Okay you've done your math
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Yes, I took my shoes off and came up w/ 43,830 tap tap taps too.
But if he took a day off now and again much of his tapping would have to be left for others....
"I'm getting too old for this s#$%t, and a boat to catch anyhoo! Look out Valinor, here I come!" 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 18 2016, 7:59pm
Post #14 of 20
(7919 views)
Shortcut
|
Speaking of Dwarven abilities, can we go back to The Hobbit for a moment? After reaching the Front Gate of Erebor, the Company of Thorin make their way to Ravenhill where they spend the night.The next morning the old thrush shows up:
"I believe he is trying to tell us something," said Balin; "but I cannot follow the speech of such birds, it is very quick and difficult. Can you make it out Baggins?"
"Not very well," said Bilbo (as a matter of fact, he could make nothing of it at all); "but the old fellow seems very excited."
"I only wish he was a raven!" said Balin.
"I thought you did not like them! You seemed very shy of them, when we came this way before."
"Those were crows! And nasty suspicious-looking creatures at that, and rude as well. You must have heard the ugly names they were calling after us."
Of course the ravens of Erebor were exceptions in that they could actually converse in the common speech (Westron), as could the great eagles. My question is: Can all Dwarves (or at least all of the Dwarves of Erebor) generally understand the language of birds well enough to just assume that others can normally do so as well? Or was Balin pulling Bilbo's leg? The old dwarf seemed earnest enough.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 18 2016, 8:01pm)
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 19 2016, 8:21pm
Post #15 of 20
(7881 views)
Shortcut
|
Not an answer to your question, but I wonder why Crows are considered bad, or more evil, than Ravens?
Perhaps it's a dwarvish thing, but that is not the way Tolkien wrote about Ravens in the Lays
no leaves they had, but ravens dark
sat thick as leaves on bough and bark,
and croaked, and as they croaked each neb
let fall a gout of blood; a web
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 19 2016, 8:51pm
Post #16 of 20
(7873 views)
Shortcut
|
Perhaps the crows that the company encountered at Erebor were crebain such as Saruman would later use as spies, though crebain seem to have been more common near Dunland and Fangorn.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
|
|
|
Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 20 2016, 4:59pm
Post #17 of 20
(7864 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"Marriage is a Dwarf-woman's grave."
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
“Marriage is a woman’s grave.”
-Japanese proverb
Questions
Twice we are reminded that Dis is the only female Dwarf whose name has been recorded. Yet she is not a character – we know nothing about her, only her family relation to some of the male heroes of this saga.
A. Why bother to give Dis a name, and call attention to her in this Appendix?
I’m kinda thinking the same reason the names Hatshepsut, Wu Zetian, and Elizabeth stick out in the histories of Egypt, China, and England.
Tolkien’s somewhat infamous invention of Dwarf-women -- manlike, bearded and asymmetrically few in number -- has always aroused controversy, inspiring questions like:
B. Is that what he really meant?
That’s what the man said.
How could an anthropoid race have a skewed sex ratio?
That’s exactly what the Aamjiwnaang First Nation up in Ontario, Canada would like to know. However, their problem is the exact opposite of the Dwarves. They have a birth ratio of one-third males to two-third females.
See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...articles/PMC1281269/.
The suspect seems to be industrial pollution. With the Dwarves the culprit is probably environmental pollution from Elven silmaril, palantir, and magic ring manufacturing, not to mention lembas facility air emissions, the jerks.
Is this extreme racial differentiation from Elves, Men, and Hobbits important and/or necessary?
In LOTR Tolkien *is* trying to make a point about destroying the environment and polluting the land. Look at Mordor, the jerks.
I am actually a little curious about the distinction between why the males and females mate even less frequently than the numbers alone would allow.
So are Germany, South Korea, and Japan who’s respective Total Fertility Rates (TFR) of 1.38, 1.19, and 1.43 are far under the needed replacement rate of 2.1 children per woman. Current Demographic Transition Models seem to tie a lower TFR to higher social and economic development. So it seems the Dwarves are more industrialized, more wealthy, and more educated than their fellow inhabitants of Middle-earth. No wonder they keep their light hidden under a bushel.
The women are characterized as focused on getting the Right Man, or none.
So the woman has the right to choose. No arranged marriages or oppressive family obligations. A very progressive society for the times!
The men are characterized as sublimated Great Artists, with no time for dames.
Or else very obsessed with stone carved hentai. The image of bearded big-eyed teenage Dwarven females dressed in short-skirt school uniforms fighting off lascivious Watcher in the Water tentacles is rather disturbing. And probably exists somewhere on the internet.
Another way of putting it is that both the females and males are radically low in sex drive,…
Well there *are* ways….
…but only females define their lives primarily in terms of their relationship to males.
Or perhaps it is the male chroniclers who can only relate to women on how they are defined in terms of their relationship to males.
And yet …
C. Why aren’t very many of the women also “engrossed in their crafts”…
Why wasn’t the upper class of Ancient Greece engrossed in crafts? They were busy with theater, music, poetry, philosophy, education, economics, administration, politics, and lots and lots of other stuff. Indeed, they disdained craftsmen.
…and so “do not desire marriage”?
The Japanese have a word for it: Mendokosai, meaning “Too troublesome”, and that's translating it mildly.
If females are so alike to males in every other way, how else should we imagine them spending their time, once they “desire none [husbands]” or “desire one that they cannot get, and will have no other”?
Continuing higher education, getting a degree, finding a fulfilling career, following their ambition, starting their own business, becoming financially independent, achieving their dreams, taking nice vacations, spoiling their relatives’ children rotten, having lots of girls’ nights out, and in general living a good life. Not to mention doing all the other tasks required for a successful civilization that don’t involve mining, crafting, or fighting. (That leaves a lot of stuff open.)
The Dwarves would seem to have a very progressive society, where males and females are both free to pursue their own desires, ambitions, and interest. No wonder they’re so secretive about their society. If the patriarchies of Middle-earth learned of this femine outpost in their midst doubtless a Vast Alliance of Men, Elves, Orcs, and Hobbits led by co-consuls King Elessar and Lord Sauron would march to destroy this common existential threat to their misogynistic cultures.
On the other hand,
D. Why should the Dwarven population be at risk, despite the inherent sexual dysfunction of the race, if those Dwarf-women who do marry proceed to have dozens and dozens of children over their several-century life-span,…
Well, I think you answered your own question as to why most Dwarven women would never want to marry right there. Even the dutiful Rosie only birthed a baker’s dozen.
…raising their horde-like families with the help of hosts of hairy aunts,….
The nice thing about spoiling your nephews and nephews rotten is that you get to leave them with their parents and go home.
…biddies, and old maids who have no children or husbands of their own?
Yeah, like the advice of those inexperienced kibitzers about child-raising and marriage life is going to be of any use whatsoever.
Moving on to Gimli, we read of his renown for being one of the Fellowship, hanging with the future King, and bonding with the Elves. All the other Dwarves in this account are “renowned” for kicking some orc-butt and general cantankerousness.
But Gimli perfected the arts of butt-kicking and general cantankerousness.
E. In whose eyes is he “renowned” here:….
The better question is “In whose eyes is he *not* renowned”.
…the other Dwarves for whom “Elf-friend” is perhaps not a compliment,…
Among Dwarves, Elves, and Men, “Gimli-friend” is the highest and most sacred honor one can attain.
Even Orcs consider it a high honor having an ancestor who was killed by The Dwarf.
… or the Men (or hobbits or whoever) who are compiling this outsider’s summary of the history of Durin’s Folk?
Show me any other Dwarf that single handed could bring peace between the Elves and Dwarves, defeat Durin’s Bane, lift Moria’s Curse, avenge the taking of the Seven, bring peace to the spirit of Thorin II, found and grow a thriving Dwarven colony within his own lifetime, and act as a New Prometheus to the Men of Middle-earth, all the while keeping the Ringbearer safe by creating various diversions. He no doubt could have also seduced Galadriel away from Celeborn but he was just too noble.
Gimli is Chuck Norris’ role model. Nuff said!
Gimli makes several comments in The Lord of the Rings about the craftsmanship of the Men of Gondor and Rohan. Here we read that “he and his people did great works in Gondor and Rohan”. The Gate of Minas Tirith is the only one mentioned, and that was foreshadowed in the main story.
F. What other kinds of work would the Dwarves do for the Men of the Fourth Age?
The first year Gimli fixed all those flimsy Numenorean works about to fall over like the Argonath, the second he built the Pyramids of Harad, the third the Stonehenge of Eriador, the fourth the Colossus of Belfalas, the fifth the Hanging Gardens of Gorgoroth, the sixth the Library of Minas Tirith, and on the seventh year instead of resting Gimli wrote a bunch of bestsellers so the library's shelves wouldn't seem so empty. Then after he was warmed up...
G. Why not mention the artistic goal that Gimli so famously sets himself: the tending and display of the Glittering Caves?
The greatest Dwarf that ever lived was also the most modest.
I don’t like to be a crank, but this purports to be a narrative that focuses on Durin’s Folk, so exclusively that Bilbo’s name never even comes up and the One Ring is mentioned once.
Well, Bilbo never once mentioned Gimli in “There and Back Again”, so there!
H. So why tell us here about Legolas’ parallel move south, his achievements, and his departure over the Sea after Elessar’s death?
He’s famous for being a friend of Gimli. In Middle-earth that automatically makes one an A-list Celebrity.
I. Why does this section only call Aragorn “King Elessar”?
Because only Arwen can call him “Fluffy Cheeks”.
Finally, it ties back to Gimli. According to “one of the last notes in the Red Book”, Gimli is said to have sailed west with Legolas.
J. Why does this bit get almost as many fan-tears as Sam doing … the same thing?
A Great Light has left the world. I’m teary just thinking about it.
As for Sam, well, he *is* the hobbit hero of LOTR.
(When did Manwe start posting guards on the beaches to stop the influx of inappropriately love-struck mortals?)
Everybody wants a piece of The Dwarf.
This final paragraph is written in a slightly different style: note phrases like “We have heard tell”, “If this is true, then it is strange indeed”, “it may be that”,…
Gimli is just so totally awesome that he defies belief. He punches reality itself in the face.
…and “More cannot be said of this matter.”
Absolutely the truth. There are only so many superlatives in the languages of Men, Elves, and Orcs to apply to The Dwarf.
K. The last question on the text is the same as the first: Who wrote this Appendix?
Gondorian lackeys of Elven revisionists. Considering how awesome The Dwarf is even after being toned down we can only thank them for not totally blowing our minds with a true vision of the Beatific Gimli.
Who is the intended audience?
Niggling little scribes bent over leafs of parchment.
L. Was Durin VII, who hasn’t yet been born, always placed at the bottom of any royal family tree?
Kinda like how the Messiah, who hasn't yet been born, is placed at the bottom of the Davidic family tree.
M. Why place Dain Ironfoot in the main line, so that Thror’s line appears to be an offshoot?
To indicate the change of dynasty.
Elsewhere (in Unfinished Tales, I think) Gimli complains that he was left behind in the Quest of Erebor, for being too young. But he was 62, and only 15 years younger than Kili.
N. Why did Fili and Kili get to go along, the only ones in the ‘next generation’?
Nepotism.
And jealousy. Even at that age Gimli was so awesome that he would have outshown all the others by punching out Smaug, winning the Battle of Five Armies with a single roundhouse kick, and then been unanimously acclaimed by Man, Elf, and Dwarf alike as Gimli I, High King of the United Kingdoms of Rhovannion, the Grey Mountains, and the Iron Hills. No way Thorin was going to allow that to happen.
Borin’s line, to the right, provided several of Thorin’s cousins who were part of the Quest. Thorin’s line is off to the left (as noted in M. above). But those two are the actual “Dwarves of Erebor” in the sense that they moved back there after the Grey Mountains were infested by the dragons. Gror’s line, the one in the middle, is really the “Dwarves of the Iron Hills”.
O. Why separate Borin’s line from Thror’s in this chart?
Kinda like the separation of Rehoboam from Jeroboam in the Davidic line.
(Hey! Think Tolkien is hinting at a Jewish inspiration?)
P. Who or what do you have to behead, quest for, wage war on, fall in doomed love with, or defy the Gods on behalf of, to get your people a family tree in Tolkien’s legendarium?
InTheChair’s got this one.
Well, that’s it for this week’s discussion! Thanks again to all who have been answering and will answer in the coming days. I always enjoy reading all your thoughts and I will try to throw a few of my own in if I have time. For this coming week, our last, I believe it’s 'all-ey all-ey in come free' – please contribute whatever posts you want on the remaining appendices, the book as a whole, or any old detail that interests you! And Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all in the week after!
Good job as always. Thanks for leading!
******************************************
I find so much joy in covering my cat with a blanket and watching the lump move around.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Dec 20 2016, 5:13pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 20 2016, 8:39pm
Post #18 of 20
(7835 views)
Shortcut
|
We do know a little bit more about Dis than Squire indicates. We know that she was about ten years old when Smaug invaded Erebor and that she fled the destruction with the rest of her family. Doubtless, many of her friends and playmates perished in the dragon's flames. Dis also endured the hardships of the wanderings of her folk and the horrors and losses incurred in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs.
If we are looking for a medical explanation for the odd ratio of Dwarf men to women, perhaps it can be found in how dwarvish physiology responded to continued long-term exposure to heavy metals. This isn't something we can ever know for certain, but it might provide a possible explanation.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 20 2016, 10:28pm
Post #19 of 20
(7825 views)
Shortcut
|
A. Why bother to give Dis a name, and call attention to her in this Appendix? But then were we to flesh-out each and every name in Tolkien’s legendarium we would have a list from here to Eärendil and back again. Yet the mention of Dís is one of those (to plagiarize from noWiz) of a ‘nicely judged vagueness’ of which we can logically fill up some corners.
--------------
In Middle-earth a Dwarf unique, Dís her given name.
Royal of lineage was Dís the Dwarf, from the Line of Durin she came.
Fleeing the wrath and wrack of Smaug sped Dís and family too.
Into exile fled Dís and kin, long wandering to Mountains Blue.
Two fine sons bore Dís the Dwarf, their destinies unknown
As quest began to slay grim worm and claim their family’s own.
Thereafter Battle fierce ensued, Oh! sons of Dís beware!
Gallant but lost before their time, for Dís a great despair.
Now sundered might be Dís the Dwarf and many friends of long ago
If not for some who keep alive those tales of joy and woe.
To aid us in the songs we sing among us still dwell those
Who sing sweet songs of Dís the Dwarf with poetry and prose.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 21 2016, 8:19am
Post #20 of 20
(7809 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The origins of another traditional maths problem? :)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
How many elves do you think Gimli befriended? Perhaps the nonsensical "A man has 64 watermelons", is a distant memory of Gimli Elfriend (originally the elvish: "A dwarf has 64 mellons".
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
|
|
