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squire
Half-elven
Dec 15 2016, 12:59pm
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**LotR Discussion: Appendix A.III, ‘Durin’s Folk’** - 4. Third time pays for all, or thank goodness for Mr. Baggins?
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So with the orcs put down, Thror well avenged, and Thrain set up comfortably in the Ered Luin for some rebuilding years, surely we can anticipate a fairly boring next section in our reading of The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A.III, “Durin’s Folk.” Well, no, not quite – not with a certain Ring at work! Here’s a summary of today’s section:
Summary of pp. 357-359: From some comments on the Ring to Gandalf’s later thoughts on the Quest of Erebor
We review some of the lore of the Ring that Thrain now holds. The Dwarves of Durin’s line believed their Ring was both the first of the Seven to be made, and a gift to Durin III by the Elves, not Sauron. Since it was held as a kind of state secret, most of the Dwarves themselves were not sure who now had it: had it been left behind in Khazad-dum, in the kings’ tombs? Or had Thror taken it to his death in Moria, eight centuries later? Later, when its true fate was revealed (see below) the Dwarves decided that Sauron had known who had the last of the Seven, and that the misfortunes of both Thror and Thrain were due to Sauron’s evil plots.
Sauron had hoped to dominate and control the Dwarvish race by means of the Rings. But, we are told, it didn’t work: Dwarves, unlike Men, could not be reduced to wraiths enslaved by the One Ring and its Lord. The only effect of the Rings was to enlarge their greed for gold and jewelry, and to enhance their native senses of jealousy and vengeance against any who kept them from gaining wealth.
Returning to the story, then, we may guess that it was his Ring that led Thrain to his doom in the years after he settled in the Blue Mountains. He became obsessed with a lust for gold, which his new realm lacked, and finally with just a few companions he set out for Erebor. Somehow Sauron tracked him and harried him with orcs, wolves, and birds – and finally captured him one dark and stormy night on the edge of Mirkwood. Thrain was never seen again; much later the Dwarves learned [from Gandalf in The Hobbit] that he had been captured by Sauron and died in the dungeons of Dol Guldur after his Ring was taken from him.
Thorin thus came into his inheritance, and by hard work grew his settlement into a comfortable and wealthy dwarf colony. Yet his heart, and those of his people, burned with anger against Smaug, and he despaired as he realized how little power he had to attack and retake Erebor.
Then by chance he encountered Gandalf in Bree, and the two of them realized they had a common goal. Thorin of course wanted revenge, but Gandalf wanted the dragon taken off the board as part of his strategy of defense against an assault of Sauron on the North, which he foresaw. The result, of course, was the Quest of Erebor as told in The Hobbit. The dragon was slain, though not by the Dwarves; and Thorin died in the subsequent battle. But Dain (his cousin in the Iron Hills) took over the Kingdom under the Mountain and Men rebuilt their nearby city of Dale. Between this somewhat miraculous outcome, and the wizard’s successful push to have the White Council drive Sauron out of Mirkwood and back to Mordor, Gandalf’s grand strategy was a huge, if temporary success.
Later, while the Fellowship of the Ring was staying in Minas Tirith after the victory of the War of the Ring, Gandalf mused that, had his ‘chance-meeting’ with Thorin in Bree not gone well, Sauron’s attack in the North might have gotten as far as Rivendell and even the Shire!
Questions
In other writings (see Unfinished Tales, for instance) we read that the Rings of Power were all made by the Elves, for the Elves. Only after Sauron recovered a bunch of them during his war with the Elves in the Second Age, did he re-distribute them to the Dwarves (7) and to Men (9). Yet very little of this idea comes through in The Lord of the Rings, including in this passage of the Appendices.
A. Were there Seven Rings made specifically for the Dwarves, so that the idea of one being the “first of the Seven” is meaningful and prestigious for Durin’s Folk? And did the Elves give the Seven to the Dwarves, some of the Seven, one of the Seven, or did Sauron do all that?
The Seven Dwarf Lords with their Rings, by New Line Films
“Sauron by his arts had discovered who had this Ring.” In The Lord of the Rings, we read that Sauron’s intelligence gathering is based on a combination of spies, and the Ithil-stone. At this early point in the Third Age, it seems that Sauron is still so relatively weak that the wizards could drive him out of his fortress and he couldn’t even rouse the One Ring out of Gollum’s pocket.
B. What are the “arts” by which the Dark Lord would find out which Dwarf of Durin’s line has the last Ring?
We’ve already been discussing the nature of the power of the Dwarves’ Ring, especially the meaning of Thror’s phrase “It needs gold to breed gold”. Here we learn a bit more about its power: it can’t make the Dwarves into wraiths under the One Ring’s control, put them in contact with the spirit world, or extend (or shorten) their life spans. Instead it makes them greedier for wealth, and more emotionally vicious regarding possession and property rights.
C. What did the Dwarves think the Rings did for them?
Thror, in giving the Ring to Thrain as he leaves for Moria, says the Ring “may be the foundation of a new fortune” just before saying the bit about needing and breeding.
D. How would increased greed tie into the need/breed paradox?
The Dwarf Fafnir, Ensnared by Lust for the Rhinegold, Turns Into A Dragon, by Marvel Comics (adapted from Wagner, etc.)
On returning to the story, the entire Ring discussion seems to be a set-up for Thrain’s going off on a hopeless personal Quest of Erebor. But the text does say “perhaps partly” it was the Ring.
E. What other factors can we imagine drove Thrain to leave his people and go to confront Smaug?
F. Why not Moria – closer, greater, and richer in the history of his forefathers and his folk?
G. Why not the Grey Mountains, where several generations of his grandfathers built a rich set of cities and settlements?
Both Thror and Thrain, in their old age, abandon their royal duties and go off almost alone to recover their lost estates, which are currently inhabited by evil creatures. Both are captured, tormented, and killed. Thorin, as we know, did almost the same thing, including the getting captured part (twice) and the getting killed part (once). Yet the last adventure is finally considered a win for Durin’s Folk.
H. Third time pays for all, or thank goodness for Mr. Baggins?
Thorin’s realm in the Blue Mountains grows prosperous, and the population is “increased by many of the wandering Folk of Durin who heard of his dwelling in the west and came to him.”
I. Where had they been until then? Had they fought in the war against the orcs?
Thorin – ‘We Will Get It Back’ by Burggraf
In a powerful elegiac passage, Thorin is described working in his forge. The heat of the fire is matched by the heat of his brooding anger. His hammer represents the past strength of Dwarven arms; the iron piece is the helpless present state of his people and their former allies.
J. In the context of the story, who wrote this penetrating snapshot of Thorin’s soul? Was it the same semi-omniscient chronicler who can read Sauron’s mind, but not Thror’s or Thrain’s?
Gandalf now enters the story. He is at Bree, heading for the Shire after an absence of twenty years; he thinks “to rest there for a while”. Yet as we know from The Hobbit, Bilbo represents most hobbits at the time as being quite inhospitable to the whole idea of adventuring wizards.
K. Which hobbits will put Gandalf up and give him a chance to ‘rest’?
Thorin is “returning west from a journey”. In The Hobbit the Dwarves seem to be quite uncertain of their route East to Erebor, consulting Elrond and clinging to Gandalf as a guide.
L. Where had Thorin been journeying? Was he traveling alone, or nearly alone, through fatal territory in the best family tradition?
Gandalf is certain that Sauron will be able to use Smaug as a weapon in his proposed invasion of northern Eriador.
M. Why would Smaug be open to being “used” by another power?
The logical follow-up question -- why is Sauron not also thinking of “using the Balrog with terrible effect” -- once led to a silly debate on a fan site: if Sauron could only use one or the other, but not both, which demonic creature would be better for him?
N. What do you think? (Note: the thread is still open for comments.)
Thorin says to Gandalf, “you have often come into my thoughts of late, as if I were bidden to seek you.”
O. What might we conclude, knowing how Tolkien does this kind of thing elsewhere?
Thorin and Gandalf at Bree, by Nasmith
Thorin points out that Gandalf is hard to find, having no permanent abode, but is said to be “wise and knows more than any other of what goes on in the world.”
P. And Saruman, head wizard who hangs his Valinor U. shingle on a 500-foot tower, is chopped liver?
The plot of The Hobbit is then quickly potted with only those details “that directly concern Durin’s Folk.” Okay at first, but then we get the White Council’s attack on Dol Guldur. That had little to do with Durin’s Folk; in The Hobbit it is basically a footnote to clean out the Necromancer’s influence on Mirkwood. Actually, this section seems to me to concern not Durin’s Folk per se, but rather how Durin’s Folk ended up playing a crucial off-stage role in The War of the Ring. Gandalf concludes smugly to his audience that, thanks to his “chance-meeting” with Thorin, Rivendell and the Shire were spared a ravaging attack by Smaug and the orcs of the Necromancer: “Do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin’s Folk.”
Q. Shouldn’t we not forget, rather, that but for Bilbo and his Ring, Thorin’s adventure would surely have ended just as his father’s and grandfather’s did, with a dramatic and insufficiently motivated death by supernatural nemesis?
This ends the main narrative. Tomorrow we’ll look over the miscellaneous notes and the family tree.
R. How much of this Appendix is about “the Dwarves” and how much is just about tying The Hobbit more closely to The Lord of the Rings?
S. Who is the primary hero of this Appendix? (I vote Dain as being the only one who has any sense, and inherits everything after all his maniac relatives self-destruct. It’s along the lines of Sam being the real hero of LotR - but I’m not sure Tolkien would agree!)
King Dain Defends the Body of King Brand, by Steamey.jpg
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 15 2016, 5:20pm
Post #2 of 27
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Dwarven Rings - where is the Missing Manual?
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What do the Seven Rings Actually do? What were they supposed to do? What do their owners think they do? I suspect we're not really going to be able to sort it out. Maybe Tolkien wasn't completely clear about it himself - when he began writing LOTR there were initially going to be a very large number of magic rings that the dark lord was trying to re-gather. Tolkien refined this to the smaller number of Great Rings in the published work, plus some once-mentioned 'lesser rings'. He then had a scheme in which the Seven don't really feature: so maybe he didn't have time to think about it all that much until these pesky appendices came up?
Thror thinks his Ring can help make fortunes, but it 'needs gold to breed gold'. As I mentioned earlier I think Tolkien might have bee thinking of the Ring from the Volsunga Saga (that's the ring that Fafnir hoards, and which turns him into a dragon). I suppose the literal-minded explanation is possible - you leave your Ring ontop of two bags of gold at night and in the morning you have 4 bags of gold. But that sounds more like a folk tale than Tolkien to me (I'm imagining that in such a folk tale The Humble Man gets on all very well with this Ring, cautiously duplicating only modest amounts. The drama comes from the Ring being seized by The Greedy King who tries to double his already large fortune, and is killed when this causes the collapse of his strongroom floor, or sinks his treasure galleon, or something.)
But as I say, that doesn't see very Middle-earth like. Personally I was imagining the Seven Rings as having a more subtle effect. Perhaps they make their ringbearers luckier in their commercial ventures: maybe they are more likely to find a promising mine site or the best veins of ore. The 'needs gold to breed gold' could be more metaphorical - a venture is more likely to be a success, but you still have to fit it out by conventional investment. I think I like this idea in part because it makes the Seven act a little like The One - like a device that seems to act by amplifyng the bearer's existing flaws. If money-making is magically easy for Ringbearers, I think that that alone might drive them into a destructive cycle of ever-larger ventures, addictive risk-taking and a bloated sense of self-worth and entitlement. And maybe the Rings are cursed in some sort of vague Children of Hurin-like way, such that everything done using them goes so very well at first that you live to rue having it all taken away again. .
But that's all speculation...
Maybe the Seven Rings don't work at all, of course - certainly they seem to have been a disappointment to Sauron on the wraithing front. It wouldn't matter if they didn't actually do anything, as long as the dwarves think they do, and so keep them carefully. One might think that 'a Ring of Power looks after itself...' etc. so that the dwarves can't abandon them anyway:
"‘A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care –and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too."
Gandalf to Frodo FOTR I.2. My bolds
Hang on though Gandalf- didn't Thror hand his Ring over to Thrain, before tottering off to get Azoged?
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 15 2016, 7:16pm
Post #3 of 27
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Giving Narya to Gandalf…
"‘A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. . . .”’ Hang on though Gandalf- didn't Thror hand his Ring over to Thrain, before tottering off to get Azoged? Makes one wonder if Gandalf forgot both these exchanges. Or, perhaps Gandalf didn’t consider the Seven worth mentioning to be true Rings of Power, as The One, Three, and Nine. As it seems any evil within the Seven (domination) was negated by the stubbornness of the Dwarves, excepting their inherent lust for things of the earth (such as gold). Edit: But then there's also Vilya given by Gil-galad to Elrond.... So my argument doesn't hold much water... eh? And Gandalf had to do a lot of 'forgetting'. 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Dec 15 2016, 7:27pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 15 2016, 8:20pm
Post #4 of 27
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Sauron never touched the Three Elven Rings so, while they might still be subject to the Master Ring, they aren't tainted like the others.
The Seven never worked on the Dwarves they way that Sauron wanted them to. They seem to produce an effect similar to the dragon-sickness, but the effect seems to be a bit uneven. By the way, I don't think that there is any fundamental difference between the Seven Rings and the Nine, the difference is in the nature of the Dwarves.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 15 2016, 9:05pm
Post #5 of 27
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The dwarf lords in their halls of stone. (Strong words from a people who dwelled in Menegroth and Nargothrond)
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A. Were there Seven Rings made specifically for the Dwarves, so that the idea of one being the “first of the Seven” is meaningful and prestigious for Durin’s Folk? And did the Elves give the Seven to the Dwarves, some of the Seven, one of the Seven, or did Sauron do all that?
They would not have been specifically made for dwarves, but perhaps some of them had powers that would especially appeal to dwarves? It was probably Sauron who decided on seven for the Dwarves, but the elves who in translation added on that number to the ring verse. (How did they find out?) The idea that Durin received his ring from the elves themselves is an attractive one.
B. What are the “arts” by which the Dark Lord would find out which Dwarf of Durin’s line has the last Ring?
Who knows, but the days that passed from Thror entering Moria till his branded head beeing cast out comes to mind.
E. What other factors can we imagine drove Thrain to leave his people and go to confront Smaug?
Is that what he attempted? Never been quite clear on what he hoped to achieve. He and his whole party gets lost (which seems unlikely) or is deliberately driven south. I guess since he had the key and the map, he must have thought of a similar scheme that Gandalf and Thorin did, though it assumes there was a Durins Day around the time.
F. Why not Moria – closer, greater, and richer in the history of his forefathers and his folk?
But no Arkenstone. That stone appears to have flamed Thorins heart more than all the treasures of Moria.
K. Which hobbits will put Gandalf up and give him a chance to ‘rest’?
He was known at least. Used to go about handing out magic cufflinks. So I guess some of them would have been friendly enough.
L. Where had Thorin been journeying? Was he traveling alone, or nearly alone, through fatal territory in the best family tradition?
Unknown, but it is said somewhere that Balin and Dwalin were with Thrains company, so some of the Dwarves at least, and probably Thorin too, had been east of the mountains before. Just a long time ago.
The logical follow-up question -- why is Sauron not also thinking of “using the Balrog with terrible effect”
Fear of the powers of the west might not have been the only reason the Balrog chose to stay hidden in Moria.
Also things could have gone ill with Sauron if the Balrog had aquired the ring. He only trusted the Nazgul.
P. And Saruman, head wizard who hangs his Valinor U. shingle on a 500-foot tower, is chopped liver?
Cosying up in his tower I guess he didn't get around to meet as many people as Gandalf at the time. Though Saruman might have occured to the Dwarves. Could not that have been why they dwelled for a time near Dunland? With Saruman promises coming to nothing the went north instead and searched elsewhere?
Q. Shouldn’t we not forget, rather, that but for Bilbo and his Ring, Thorin’s adventure would surely have ended just as his father’s and grandfather’s did, with a dramatic and insufficiently motivated death by supernatural nemesis?
Walking into a Dragons den with only twelve unarmed dwarf companions and little hobbit, undeniably takes a set of big iron balls.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 15 2016, 9:11pm)
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 15 2016, 9:18pm
Post #6 of 27
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Sometimes Sauron doesn't get credit.
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What do the Seven Rings Actually do?
Might not be too dissimilar from some of the effects the One also displays. Boromir imagines the ring would make followers flock to his banner, and Sauron genuinely appears to fear such a thing with Aragorn. So how does that work? Whatever effect the seven have I'm guessing it would make dwarves inclined to trust you for business. (Which might place Thrors remark in context. Need gold to breed gold, but it is more difficult to do good gold business without starting off with some.)
Hang on though Gandalf- didn't Thror hand his Ring over to Thrain, before tottering off to get Azoged?
And if the ring was given to Durin originally then all his descendants that passed it on down to Thror. (Unless they were weaned of the fingers of the dead only.)
As well as Sauron handing them out liberally to both Men and Dwarves, but that might be a special case.
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 15 2016, 9:37pm
Post #7 of 27
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Another possibility is that the ring's power of gold-lust doesn't really kick in until the bearer obtains some of his own. So somebody with the ring who is off in mines with no gold, is just fine and won't be driven mad by desire for riches of gold (at least, the ring wouldn't be responsible, but it might be innate in that ring bearer). But once you start acquiring gold, the ring kicks into overdrive and causes the holder to obsess with gold if you're not careful.
I'm not certain this holds up to how the dwarven rings actually affected their holders, mostly thinking out loud.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 15 2016, 11:10pm
Post #8 of 27
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Good point - the 7 and the 3 (on occasion) are more like heirlooms
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They can be given to an heir or successor. Come the time of LOTR none of the 3 are on the hands of their original owners (I think - but come to think of it, I don't know how Galadriel got hers).
***
It was beginning to bug me that there didn't seem to be a set of 5 Rings (1,3,...,7,9: 5 is definitely missing). Then I realised that Sauron gave them to his True Love, about this time of year, along with other presents so eccentric that the relationship broke down, and Sauron turned back to Evil Ways and cast the Master Ring on the rebound.
Moral: the fate of Middle-earth might depend on you realising that your girlfriend does not want a marching band, a dance troupe, a dairy, and a collection of poultry for Christmas. 
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 15 2016, 11:11pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 15 2016, 11:16pm
Post #9 of 27
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I think you’re right about the Three Rings
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They likely may have been somewhat easy to ‘gift away’ (such as Narya and Vilya), by their original bearers. And they were made in secret by Celebrimbor and were, as you say, not tainted by Sauron.
Sauron never touched the Three Elven Rings so, while they might still be subject to the Master Ring, they aren't tainted like the Seven and the Nine. But we are still left with Gandalf’s statement that a Ring of Power looks after itself and that Bilbo alone in history is the only one to freely give up a Ring of Power. So we are left to wonder what Gandalf considered a Ring of Power. Or did he misspeak, as he earlier in The Shadow of the Past gave a roundup of the 3, 7, and 9, insinuating that all were Rings of Power.
Point of trivia: I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned before that the One Ring is never capitalized until after Gandalf throws it into the fire at Bag End. It’s always “ring” before and “Ring” afterwards (unless I’ve missed one somewhere?).
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 15 2016, 11:59pm
Post #10 of 27
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The Three, The Five, The Seven and Nine . . . . . has a nice Ring to it.
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Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Five for the Foxy Babes in their foxy homes,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
(I think - but come to think of it, I don't know how Galadriel got hers). She was given Nenya by Celebrimbor shortly after its making.
It was at that time that she received Nenya, the White Ring, from Celebrimbor…
-U.T. History of Galadriel and Celeborn
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 16 2016, 7:40am
Post #12 of 27
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Capitalzed Ring - it's a neat effect: once we know what it is it has a Capitalized personal name
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One edition of the book I have read de-capitalises it just once, at the point where Tom Bombadil is handling it. 'Ohhhh!' I thought and began concocting theories about this being significant. But it's still 'Ring' in my 60th Anniversary edition at that point, so I imagine it was just a typo.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 16 2016, 4:58pm
Post #15 of 27
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The Appendix that causes the most Appendix-itis? (an attempt of sorts at Qns H-S)
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I'm finding this Appendix is a good example of several things we've discussed in the Appendices so far:
Tolkien's imagination was still firing wonderfully, producing many great ideas.
Not all these ideas seem to work out when Reading Room amounts of scrutiny are applied. It's sometimes hard to tell whether this is because a lot of the story is told in summarised form (the only viable option for the time-spans being covered) or whether there are snags the author hadn't had time to think out.
Another author would have mined this material for whole series of books (arguably sorting out the plotting glitches as Tolkien did so well in LOTR itself)...
But, as we discussed earlier, 'another author' wouldn't' have been Tolkien, who was most definitely going to turn to his First Age (Silmarillion) work first. perhaps more tales of Dwarves (or Dunadain, or Rohirrim) might have followed a successfully completed Silmarillion, but Tolkien didn't get that far.
Why he wasn't able to finish the Silmarillion remains a bit of a mystery to me. Clearly he really wanted to, and LOTR became enough of a critical and commercial success that there would have been no problem publishing a finished Silmarillion. But the obstacles to finishing creative projects can be quite mysterious to anyone who isn't the creator (or even to the creator themselves).
Tom Shippey (in Road To Middle-earth suggests that one barrier to completing Silmarillion was something that is very apparent in this Appendix A:
As he turned towards thrift [*], consistency, classification, Tolkien forfeited much of what he had valued before; he was contracting, not expanding. In a way the very success of The Lord of the Rings, founded on its immense solidity and scope, made life difficult for him afterwards. Not only would The Silmarillion have to achieve the ‘depth’ it had already been used to create, it would have to do so without contradicting, and while if possible reinforcing, all the millions of details Tolkien had handed over to his readership already.
Prof Tom Shippey, "The Road to Middle-earth: How J. R. R. Tolkien created a new mythology"
[* a little earlier, Prof Shippey has explained that by' thrift' he means here 'a drive towards consistency, towards reducing data, events, characters to some smaller set of principles or categories.']
That seems all the more credible to me as we've read Appendix A. The problem seems to be turning up already in these Appendices.
In this part of the Appendices, as made clear by squires excellent questions, there seems to be a clear wish to make this history of the dwarves into the pattern of the confrontation between Sauron and Gandalf. So Sauron has plotted many if not all of the dwarves misfortunes; may intend (somehow) to use Smaug and/or the balrog as an ally or tool in the war. It's not working completely, for me at least.
Tom Shippey again:
The Middle-earth of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings is full of chaotic half-glimpsed independent lives, ears in the forest, fell voices on the wind, enemy powers older than Sauron and unconnected with him. In a letter of 1955 Tolkien had rather laughed at the idea that Willow-man and the wights were agents of the Dark Lord: ‘Cannot people imagine things hostile to men and hobbits who prey on them without being in league with the Devil!’ (Letters, p. 228). But in manuscript B of ‘The Hunt for the Ring’ (written at much the same time) just this idea is being entertained.
Shippey, ibid.
Maybe there is a little too much in-league-with-the-devilry in this neck of the appendices.
By attempting to weld The Hobbit to the LOTR, as he seems to be doing his Appendix (and The Quest for Erebor, which turns up in UT) Tolkien has a further problem - sections of the Hobbit (such as Bilbo's recruitment) are funny. It's pretty much:
A wizard has roped you into a quest because one of your ancestors invented golf. ... You have been hired by a group of adventurers to work as a thief, even though your only professional experience is gentle meandering. How To Tell If You Are In A J.R.R. Tolkien Book, by Austin Gilkeson http://the-toast.net/...-a-jrr-tolkien-book/
But this won't do if the now-terribly-solemn-and-powerful Gandalf is recruiting Bilbo as part of a strategy to get friendly pieces on the board for an upcoming and desperate world war. Tolkien would have had to re-write parts of TH for the third time to re-cast it completely in this mould.
I suspect that in his 'thrift' drive, Tolkien was being egged on by the ever-larger post-bag arriving from the publication of FOTR onwards: people asking for detailed explanations of how the whole world of Middle-earth (and the rest of it glimpsed beyond) fitted together, We know very well from our discussions here how very fascinating that is. And yet it can spoil one of Tolkien's best literary effects - nicely judged vagueness; the presentation of an intriguing mystery where the mystery is somehow both tantalizing and more satisfying than any possible explanation. We've encountered that problem too in our Appendices read-through - for example in the discussion of why Arnor was so empty of people or even ruins.
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 16 2016, 10:35pm
Post #16 of 27
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Five rings in the Olympic flag.
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It was beginning to bug me that there didn't seem to be a set of 5 Rings (1,3,...,7,9: 5 is definitely missing).
Not much luck there. The only five I can think of just now are the rods of the wizards.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 16 2016, 11:58pm
Post #17 of 27
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We have contemplated over the years on most every significant
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and insignificant person, non-person, place, event, battle, weapon, timeline, moon phase, poem, animal, vegetable and mineral, etc. etc. etc. of Tolkien’s work. Many or most of these conversations often of necessity turn towards, at least, some speculation on our parts.
Yet, I don’t recall ‘filling these corners’ that have been left somewhat empty by Tolkien being put in a better light than noWiz’s “nicely judged vagueness”. Three sweet words to remember when we just can’t seem to work it out, or our 'wonder machine' is in overdrive. Love it! Tolkien is smiling. Thanks noWiz!
I suspect that in his 'thrift' drive, Tolkien was being egged on by the ever-larger post-bag arriving from the publication of FOTR onwards: people asking for detailed explanations of how the whole world of Middle-earth (and the rest of it glimpsed beyond) fitted together, We know very well from our discussions here how very fascinating that is. And yet it can spoil one of Tolkien's best literary effects – nicely judged vagueness
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 17 2016, 12:22am
Post #18 of 27
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The number “five” wasn’t big in Tolkien’s repertoire.
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But he went overboard with the number “three” we bantered about a while back, and came up with over 100 instances (I think).
http://newboards.theonering.net/...string=three;#826591
Another five that I can of think beyond the Wizards, is The Battle of “Five” Armies. But I’m sure there must be more?
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 18 2016, 10:53am
Post #19 of 27
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Maybe because Thorin had met him. And didn't think much of the White Wizard. And Durin's folk at that time where far beneath the notice of Saruman's grand designs!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 18 2016, 11:16am
Post #20 of 27
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Would the Dwarven Rings have made them invisible?
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I somehow have difficulty thinking of a Wraith-Dwarf though I suppose it isn't impossible. Could be a sign of how far a Dwarf with a Ring obsession can fall, I suppose, thinking about it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 18 2016, 1:12pm
Post #21 of 27
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Dwarven Rings and Invisibility
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Would the Dwarven Rings have made them invisible?
No, apparently the Seven Rings did not effect the Dwarves in that way and I don't think that they could have transformed a Dwarf into a Wraith (though the Master Ring might be an exception). I am of the opinion that the Seven would have affected Men or Hobbits in exactly the same manner as the Nine or the One.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 18 2016, 1:12pm
Post #22 of 27
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Dwarven Rings and Invisibility
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Would the Dwarven Rings have made them invisible?
No, apparently the Seven Rings did not effect the Dwarves in that way and I don't think that they could have transformed a Dwarf into a Wraith (though the Master Ring might be an exception). I am of the opinion that the Seven would have affected Men or Hobbits in exactly the same manner as the Nine or the One.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 18 2016, 2:24pm
Post #23 of 27
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No, the text is pretty clear about that
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As it says in the Appendix at this point:
But [the Dwarves] were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination [e.g., by Sauron's Ring]. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. - LotR, App A.III, (bold by squire)
We can connect the 'reduced to shadows' phrase to the invisibility power of the Rings by remembering Gandalf's description of the process to Frodo:
‘A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.'- LotR, I.2, (bold by squire)
So the the invisibility feature of the Rings is simply a symptom of the enslaving/wraithing feature. No wraithing ability, no invisibility, and vice-versa. And thus the whole point of the Dwarves and the Rings in this part of the Appendix is that, unlike with Men (and of course Elves), Sauron's plot simply didn't work.
What I have always been curious about is, why then was Sauron so concerned to recover the Dwarves' Rings once he realized he had no chance of controlling their holders?
Gandalf sums up the situation at the beginning of the story, talking to Frodo but apparently rehearsing the situation more to himself:
'Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. ...
‘So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three,'- LotR, I.2, (bold by squire)
So according to Gandalf the Dark Lord is very concerned to "recover" or "gather to himself" the Rings he gave out. He tracked Thrain through the Wilderness for nine years, just to get that Ring back. Why?
Would they be a resource he could use to create more Nazgul, i.e., were the Rings of Power the same from race to race in their invisibility and enslavement ability - so that it was the differing natures of the three races themselves that invalidated the universal scope of Sauron's scheme? Yet, we don't hear anything about new Ringwraiths as the Third Age progresses. (I have always thought the Mouth of Sauron would be an ideal second-generation Ringwraith, as would Boromir or Denethor).
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 18 2016, 4:41pm
Post #24 of 27
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That's an interesting point - if the Seven had just not worked, why should Sauron go to any effort to recover them?
As far as I remember, the only relevant thing in the text is that Sauron tries to trade the Rings he's got for information about Bilbo, but Dain is uninterested.
Of course we have no way of telling whether Sauron intended to honour that bargain and hand over the rings had Dain betrayed Bilbo. Or whether it was part of some larger Cunning Plan. So one could imagine he'd actually given the rings away to Men, to produce more wraiths as you suggest. Clearly Sauron has been actively gathering allies to the South and East, and might have used the rings there. Anyway, come to think of it, is he able to make more Rings, or does he need to dupe Celebrimbor or to have the One Ring in hand to do that?
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 19 2016, 8:13pm
Post #25 of 27
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come to think of it, is he able to make more Rings
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He only ever made one of the twenty. Maybe he wouldn't be interested in spending time on more.
Saruman made one apparently, though there's no telling if it worked, or if it would have been under control of the one, like all the others.
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Foxy Rings, Foxy Lady, Talking Fox
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(Can you say “tight”?) 
1
