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squire
Half-elven
Dec 14 2016, 12:56pm
Post #1 of 19
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**LotR Discussion: Appendix A.III, ‘Durin’s Folk’** - 3. You can’t go home again, and again, and again.
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I know you’ve been up all night waiting for the next installment of this discussion, because it ended with the Battle of Azanulbizar at a tipping point, with the Dwarves losing but Nain of the Iron Hills standing at the Moria Gate itself, yelling for Azog to come out and fight like an orc. Here’s a short summary of what happens next.
Summary of pp. 356-357: From Azog’s Joining the Battle to the Settlement of the Blue Mountains
Azog emerges from Moria, back by his elite Guard, and they fight with Nain’s company. The two leaders duel, and Nain both weary and enraged falls to Azog’s axe. Even as he exults, the orc is dismayed to see that his army is now losing; the dwarves have finally won the day. He races back up to the Gate, chased by Dain, Nain’s son. Dain beheads Azog on the threshold, a remarkable feat for so young a Dwarf. When he returns to the field, his face is ashen with fear at what he saw inside Moria’s Gate.
The Dwarves have won their war, but the toll is so high they cannot celebrate a victory: half their army is dead or crippled. Thrain announces he will now take back Khazad-dum for Durin’s Folk, but his followers dissent. The Dwarves of other Houses have no interest in Moria since it offers them no loot, and his own people are sated by the bloody vengeance of the war. And Dain tells Thrain straight out that the Balrog, Durin’s Bane, still lurks in Moria and will only be defeated by some future power greater than what Thrain can command.
The Dwarves strip the dead of their valuable arms, and then, against all their customs, they burn the bodies. The labor of burying so many in stone tombs is beyond them, and even building the pyres strips the valley of its woodlands. From then on, to say of ones ancestor “he was a burned Dwarf” is a claim of high family honor.
When the other clans have headed home, Thrain and his son Thorin realize they have lost their kingdom to avenge Thror. With the few remaining folk of Durin, they leave Dunland and head West. They end up in the Blue Mountains near the Sea, and begin to rebuild their fortunes and numbers through working in iron. They still have their House’s Ring, but as Thror had predicted, that “needed gold to breed gold” and their new mines were lacking in precious metals of any kind.
Questions
Azog taunts Nain to enrage him, and “full of guile” kicks the Dwarf’s leg. Nain’s last best stroke goes wrong and he stumbles. This gives Azog his opening, and he breaks Nain’s neck. The goblin laughs and begins a gloating shout, broken short when ….
A. Does Azog “fight fair”? Is it possible to criticize an orc for behaving like an orc?
… Azog sees that, while Nain and his men have been fighting their way to the Gate to engage him, the Dwarves have turned the tide in the main battle in the valley, and the orcs are now being routed. But earlier we were told that the Dwarves were on the ropes, and only Nain’s arrival made the difference.
B. If Nain and his men went up to the Gate, what explains the recovery and victory of the rest of the Dwarves, who last seen were fending off their attackers in the woods, with many dead and wounded?
Dain Chases Azog by Tulikoura
The ‘stripling’ Dain is complimented on killing Azog and avenging his father, his first major feat of arms. His death in the War of the Ring, in old age, is noted as a sign of the length of his career.
C. Since so much of this appendix seems to refer to events from The Hobbit, why no mention of Dain’s vital role in the Battle of the Five Armies?
Dain and Azog by Babendererde
Dain, evidently, sees the Balrog lurking inside the Gate.
D. What is the relationship between the Balrog and the Orcs? Why wouldn’t the Balrog come out and fight as well, as a kind of Nuke of the Dark Side?
The Dwarves display Azog’s head, with the original insulting beggar’s purse in its mouth. Somehow this doesn’t strike me as the kind of thing orcs would find particularly infamous. But I am not an orc.
E. Is this gesture the best one for the triumphant Dwarves to mark their revenge after a six-year-long fearsomely vicious war?
Azog’s Head On Stake from LOTR Online
When Thrain proposes that he and his remaining people (Durin’s Folk) retake Khazad-dum now that it has been cleared of orcs, they say no: “If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it.”
F. Granted that Dain is about quash further discussion by bringing up the Balrog, what do the other Dwarves mean? Why couldn’t even a small remnant of the folk of Erebor re-colonize Khazad-dum, if it is (as they all assume) vacant?
The other clans sound pretty cranky, too. Correctly noting that they have no interest in Moria as an ancient home, they complain that there are “no rewards and weregilds that are owed to us” and conspicuously start eyeing the exits.
G. Is this lack of grace, post-battle trauma, or an understandable ignorance of the narrator’s comment earlier that “this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath”? Wasn’t their commitment to fight the war based on honor, not hope of gain?
The Dwarves wisely stripped their dead of weapons and gear, to prevent the orcs from getting it. Then they all carried it home, struggling under the extra weight.
H. Given the slow rate of reproduction, when would the extra armor next be worn? Would it become outdated and useless eventually? Could it be melted down, or adjusted to fit small men and halflings and resold?
The burning of the dead is evidently a big deal. Somehow it sounds to me like this episode is based on some real-world epic event, but nothing I know comes to mind.
I. Anyone? “He was a burned Ottoman”? “He was a burned Frank”? “He was a burned Roman”?
’Pyres And Great Labour’ by Tulikoura
The comment about the trees being burned and leaving the valley forever bare, plus the bit about the reek being seen in Lorien, reminds me of the disposal of the fell beast on the Pellenor and the burning of the orc-raiders by Eomer, both in The Lord of the Rings.
J. Coincidence, skillful literary cross-reference, or unimaginative recycling of tropes?
K. Speaking of gigantic battles that still make Dwarves weep, why didn’t Gimli, Gloin’s son, mention anything about this when he was giving Frodo the Cook’s Tour of the valley and the Kheled-zaram?
As they contemplate their next move, Thrain seems to offer his son Thorin a choice: ‘Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?’ Thorin immediately points out that the anvil is good exercise for some future war, thus of course he’ll come along to wherever they’re going.
L. What is the meaning of Thrain’s question? I mean, why did he even feel he had to ask?
Thorin And Thrain from LOTR Online
They “wander” (why?) out of Dunland and eventually end up in the Blue Hills, which as we know is where they will stay until the Quest of Erebor begins. The comment that their number “slowly increased” comes with a footnote that “They had very few women-folk. Dis Thrain’s daughter was there. She was the mother of Fili and Kili, who were born in the Ered Luin. Thorin had no wife.”
M. Does “very few” in this context refer to just Thrain’s people, who are the survivors of both Smaug’s destruction of Erebor and the War with the orcs? In other words, did other Dwarf clans have relatively more women, or is “very few” an odd way of referring to the general 1-female/2-male ratio that comes up later in this narrative?
The Dwarves of Durin’s Folk, at the end of this section, are ‘prospering after a fashion’ by forging iron goods, and presumably trading them for whatever else they need. “They had little or none” of gold or other precious metals, and so could not become as truly wealthy as they would have liked. But gold was surely available for trade from elsewhere in Middle-earth – and the Dwarves’ craft would multiply the value of any gold ore by a profitable amount, I should have thought.
N. Why do the Dwarves seem to insist on possessing the gold ore in their own mines, before they consider themselves able to “really” prosper?
Next: tomorrow we will explore the nature of the Dwarves’ Ring of Power, the fate of Thrain II, and the ‘true story’ behind Bilbo’s adventure with Thorin Oakenshield.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 14 2016, 2:01pm
Post #2 of 19
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A. Does Azog “fight fair”?
It was known that Azog held a 5th Dan in Tae Kwon Do and savate, and a 7th Dan in taunting.
Nain was likely aware of the prowess of Azog, and being weary should have backed off for a breather. But no sturdy Dwarf could have resisted the taunting of Azog, and thus in his weariness Nain fell for the almost amateurish ‘leg sweep’ of Azog, resulting in his broken neck.
But Nain was honoured by all of the House of Durin and any Dwarf thereafter would proudly proclaim that “He was a Hewn Dwarf”, and that is enough.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Dec 14 2016, 7:36pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 14 2016, 6:38pm
Post #3 of 19
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A: Fighting fair? This is of course brutal warfare, not a marital arts sport with an agreed set of rules. But in a kickboxing competition, if my opponent is tired or frustrated, it's really their problem not mine, and a short swift move right after they've launched a big clumsy attack would be a very likely tactic to try. Leg sweeps aren't necessarily a low trick - they're allowed in my club's standard rules, but are allowed at the club down the road. I've not fought anyone who has lost their temper, of course: they'd be rapidly taken off by judges or instructors as a danger to themselves and their opponents (and would be in some disgrace for lack of self-control).
B: What happened in the rest of the battle? My guess is that while Nain and a small bodyguard have engages Azog, the main body of Nain's troops have been attacking the main body of the orcs, and cutting them off from their gates. I can imagine that causing a lot of demoralisation!
C: It does seem an omission not to mention Dain's later exploits (we do get a mention of his heroic death later in this appendix).
D: I think the Balrog is just watching the show. I don't think it has any interest in this struggle - unless, perhaps, the dwarves want to come into its hall.
E: I think the dwarves need to wipe out the insult offered them as a matter of honour. So doing back to Azog what he did to Thror is essential to settle that personal score. But ...
F: ,...balrogs aside, it is a little hard to understand why Thror's clan don't try to take back Moria (or even 'balrogs notwithstanding, it's hard...')
G: maybe various promises were made to the other clans in addition to avenging dwarven honour. And maybe certain dwarves are getting their excuses in first in case they're accused of being afraid of balrogs?
H: The armour of the dead dwarves is the only momento left of them, given that it was necessary to cremate them hastily. I think it might have been carried of for reasons of respect and sentiment (as well as the practical reason that it's unwise to leave good materiel out for the enemy to loot). Anyway, imagine the taunting next time if you're fighting a goblin who has got your uncles's armour!
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 14 2016, 7:57pm
Post #4 of 19
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A. Does Azog “fight fair”? Is it possible to criticize an orc for behaving like an orc?
Possible, but perhaps futile. A fight is a fight and a taunt is a taunt. Azog attempts to flee though once the tide is turned against him. In a heroic world that kind of thing tends to be frowned upon, so you could claim that Azog was a rotter after all.
C. Since so much of this appendix seems to refer to events from The Hobbit, why no mention of Dain’s vital role in the Battle of the Five Armies?
Already printed in the Hobbit. If the Appendixes were short of space that might have been something that had to go.
D. ... Why wouldn’t the Balrog come out and fight as well, as a kind of Nuke of the Dark Side?
Or reversed, what brought the noramlly so people-shy Balrog this close to the gates? Thrain was there, possibly carrying the last of the seven.
Although there's nothing to say that Dain really saw the Balrog. As suggested in The Bridge of Khazad-Dum chapter the presence of these Balrogs can sometimes be felt even through a closed door.
H. Given the slow rate of reproduction, when would the extra armor next be worn? Would it become outdated and useless eventually? Could it be melted down, or adjusted to fit small men and halflings and resold?
Like NoWiz I wonder if perhaps they did not bring much of it as mementos. Also based on Smaugs lair, the dwarves were fond of decorating their walls with armour and weapons. Perhaps they saw an opportunity of re-carpeting the rooms.
L. What is the meaning of Thrain’s question? I mean, why did he even feel he had to ask?
Thorin having reached a certain age, might have felt the desire to go set up on his own somewhere. Though perhaps after the dissapointing answers of the other dwarf-houses Thrain was just looking for some sign of support to reassert his faith in his people.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 14 2016, 10:27pm
Post #5 of 19
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"What is the meaning of Thrain’s question?" Is it the rhetorical trick of offering a false dichotomy?
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A common rhetorical trick: state that there are only two choices- the one the speaker wants adopted, or one that is obviously bad. By pretending that no other options exist, the speaker hopes to make it seem that the choice they advocate is the only good one, and so get agreement.
Do you agree, or do you have no understanding at all of Middle-earth? (For example  )
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Cuwen Maegmacil
Rivendell
Dec 14 2016, 10:39pm
Post #6 of 19
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A. Does Azog "Fight Fair"? Is it possible to criticize an orc for behaving like an orc?
How do you define fighting fair? Isn't all fair in love and war? I guess I would say that he acted precisely the way I would expect him to act, orc or not. If your enemy was at your feet, trying to kill you, and the missed, wouldn't you eliminate the threat of their being? As to acting like an orc, yeah, he's a beast; little better than an animal. There's no surprise on that front.
C. Since so much of this appendix seems to refer to events from The Hobbit, why no mention of Dain’s vital role in the Battle of the Five Armies?
"Some things that should not have been forgotten were lost."
D. What is the relationship between the Balrog and the Orcs? Why wouldn’t the Balrog come out and fight as well, as a kind of Nuke of the Dark Side?
Possibly a type of protection relationship? Does anyone know if a Balrog's power waxes and wanes over time? It doesn't seem likely that he would be killed by a Dwarf, so there's no sense as to why he should be afraid. Perhaps he didn't want to reveal himself, for fear that some would seek him out to destroy him? He probably didn't care for the orcs and whether or not they succeeded in their endeavors.
J. Coincidence, skillful literary cross-reference, or unimaginative recycling of tropes?
Unimaginative, only if you don't remember that all evil is connected and thus all evil might have the same, if not similar, effects on the earth. Therefore, not even a literary cross-reference, but just a creative imagining of a world's science.
I'm not a Psychopath, I'm a High-Functioning Sociopath, do your research.
But I don't regret, nor will I forget, all who took that road with me. Night is now falling, so ends this day. The road is now calling and I must away. Over hill, and under tree, through lands where never light has shined. I turned at last to paths that lead home.
(This post was edited by Cuwen Maegmacil on Dec 14 2016, 10:40pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 15 2016, 1:26am
Post #7 of 19
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My guess is that the Balrog didn't give a fig about the War of the Dwarves and Orcs and only tolerated the presence of the Orcs in Moria because they worshiped him and acted as an early-warning system against other invaders.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Cuwen Maegmacil
Rivendell
Dec 15 2016, 2:40pm
Post #9 of 19
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Thank you very much, noWizardme! This is a fascinating place!
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"I'm not a Psychopath, I'm a High-Functioning Sociopath, do your research.
But I don't regret, nor will I forget, all who took that road with me. Night is now falling, so ends this day. The road is now calling and I must away. Over hill, and under tree, through lands where never light has shined. I turned at last to paths that lead home."
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 15 2016, 5:03pm
Post #10 of 19
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Do orcs have souls? (chuckling to myself...)
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This oft-repeated discussion point actually seems to directly apply. If we conceive of orcs as having some kind of independent reasoning, free will, choice between good-and-evil (or at least between really-evil and not-so-evil, maybe), then it's fair to criticize Azog.
But if orcs are irredeemable soulless beasts, then criticism is really pointless.
Based on past discussions I'd venture most forum members would think orcs in Tolkien's worlds cannot have souls (too many problems creep up if they do), so I'd say Azog behaves exactly as he should (and likely must).
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 15 2016, 5:09pm
Post #11 of 19
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How powerful exactly is this Balrog?
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Is a single Balrog more powerful than even a combined army or dwarves? Could a Balrog only be defeated by an especially powerful High Elf, and even a host of 'normal High Elves' could not vanquish it?
I'm just wondering about the power-relationship between the Balrog and the Moria dwarves. I know Tolkien (quite correctly) eschews assigning "power factors" to his different characters to avoid a gaming situation where we numerically determine outcomes. But in-story, are we saying the Balrog of Moria was likely never going to be able to be defeated by any or all of the dwarves, even if they had made a concerted effort to defeat him like they did with Azog?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 15 2016, 5:45pm
Post #12 of 19
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An entire army of Dwarves would presumably be powerful enough to challenge one Balrog in a direct confrontation, but the Balrog of Moria doesn't seem to fight that way. He attacks from the shadows, slays, and withdraws. That seems to be how he drove the Dwarves from Moria in the first place.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 15 2016, 5:48pm
Post #13 of 19
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If we conceive of orcs as having some kind of independent reasoning, free will, choice between good-and-evil (or at least between really-evil and not-so-evil, maybe), then it's fair to criticize Azog.
But if orcs are irredeemable soulless beasts, then criticism is really pointless.
Based on past discussions I'd venture most forum members would think orcs in Tolkien's worlds cannot have souls (too many problems creep up if they do), so I'd say Azog behaves exactly as he should (and likely must).
On the contrary, if Orcs were originally bred from twisted, corrupted Elves and/or Men then Orcs almost certainly have souls. Even Tolkien supposed that they were not completely irredeemable, but that the effort would be beyond most attempts to reform them.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 15 2016, 8:20pm
Post #15 of 19
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Is a single Balrog more powerful than even a combined army or dwarves?
So it might seem, but there is something else at play here. This balrog instill an almost unreasonable fear in the dwarves, and he was hidden deep. Down in caverns that the Dwarves didn't make and didn't know. Until the they found it. Down there they could not have caught him, which may be why they eventually left. Rather than beeing picked off one by one over the years.
Dwarf armies tend to be rubbish against Dragons and Balrogs. Maybe they should have kept making those face-masks they did in the first age.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 18 2016, 12:05pm
Post #17 of 19
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I think the Reading Room has quite a showing of Badass Bookworks
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At least, a discussion a while back revealed tangentially that we had a number of martial artists, archers of various kinds, and riflemen (and -women). Sometimes people have been able to contribute fascinating insights into what you could reasonably do with a sword, bow etc. We also have riders, sailors, hikers and many others.
Were the Reading Room to come under attack we could put up a sprites defence. (Maybe just as well - with all those brains on show, we'd have to be a prime zombie target.)
~~~~~~
Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 18 2016, 5:17pm
Post #18 of 19
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“Never get out of the cave.” Absolutely goddamn right!
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"Never get out of the boat." Absolutely goddamn right!
-Apocalypse Now (1979)
Azog taunts Nain to enrage him, and “full of guile” kicks the Dwarf’s leg. Nain’s last best stroke goes wrong and he stumbles. This gives Azog his opening, and he breaks Nain’s neck. The goblin laughs and begins a gloating shout, broken short when ….
A. Does Azog “fight fair”?
I’m confident that he was meticulously following the Marquis of Lugburz Rules, and I’m pretty sure Nain wasn’t, so who’s the real cheater here?
Is it possible to criticize an orc for behaving like an orc?
That would be getting into the whole “nurture versus nature” thing.
… Azog sees that, while Nain and his men have been fighting their way to the Gate to engage him, the Dwarves have turned the tide in the main battle in the valley, and the orcs are now being routed. But earlier we were told that the Dwarves were on the ropes, and only Nain’s arrival made the difference.
B. If Nain and his men went up to the Gate, what explains the recovery and victory of the rest of the Dwarves, who last seen were fending off their attackers in the woods, with many dead and wounded?
As Napoleon said to his brother Joseph in 1809, “in war, morale is everything.” This maxim was amply demonstrated at Waterloo, where French morale was fatally damaged when, instead of the expected reinforcement of Marshal Grouchy’s 33,000 strong right wing of the French Army of the North, the French forces saw General von Zeiten’s Prussian 1st Corps coming down the Wavre road to reinforce Wellington’s left flank. (*highlight for massive spoiler* = Napoleon lost.)
The ‘stripling’ Dain is complimented on killing Azog and avenging his father, his first major feat of arms. His death in the War of the Ring, in old age, is noted as a sign of the length of his career.
C. Since so much of this appendix seems to refer to events from The Hobbit, why no mention of Dain’s vital role in the Battle of the Five Armies?
On the other hand, Thranduil was never mentioned at all by Bilbo so obviously he was penciled in much later as a participant. The Elvish revisionist conspiracy continues even today as Jackson’s insertion of Elves at Helm’s Deep clearly demonstrates. Never trust an Elf! Or their imperial running dog Gondorian lackies!
Dain, evidently, sees the Balrog lurking inside the Gate.
D. What is the relationship between the Balrog and the Orcs?
They’re just good friends.
Why wouldn’t the Balrog come out and fight as well, as a kind of Nuke of the Dark Side?
Lessee. Smaug is all safe in his lair in the Lonely Mountain until he comes out of his cave, then immediately gets killed by one little arrow. Shelob is all snug in her labyrinth in Torech Ungol until she comes out of her cave, then gets her keister handed to her by a hobbit gardener with a letter-opener. The Balrog knows “Rule Number One of Lair Lurking Monsters” is “Never come out of the cave!” unless he wants to get his remains smote all over the mountainside. He’s not that stupid. (Yet.)
The Dwarves display Azog’s head, with the original insulting beggar’s purse in its mouth. Somehow this doesn’t strike me as the kind of thing orcs would find particularly infamous.
And so the Orcs are highly offended that the Dwarves didn’t insult them properly. You can see why these feud things go on for generations.
But I am not an orc.
Didn’t a US president say that?
Is this gesture the best one for the triumphant Dwarves to mark their revenge after a six-year-long fearsomely vicious war?
You’d think they would have had a committee work out an important detail like that before they even started the trip down to Moria. I betting they even forgot to bring clean socks.
When Thrain proposes that he and his remaining people (Durin’s Folk) retake Khazad-dum now that it has been cleared of orcs, they say no: “If this is victory, then our hands are too small to hold it.”
They also would have said "My friends, what a wrestling ground for Elves and Goblins we are leaving behind us!" but that had already happened.
F. Granted that Dain is about quash further discussion by bringing up the Balrog, what do the other Dwarves mean?
“Our forces would be stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread.”
Why couldn’t even a small remnant of the folk of Erebor re-colonize Khazad-dum, if it is (as they all assume) vacant?
If they re-colonized Khazad-dum then it wouldn’t be vacant, and as the great orc warchief Shoeless Joe Skullcrusher said, “If you rebuild it, we will come.”
The other clans sound pretty cranky, too. Correctly noting that they have no interest in Moria as an ancient home, they complain that there are “no rewards and weregilds that are owed to us” and conspicuously start eyeing the exits.
G. Is this lack of grace, post-battle trauma, or an understandable ignorance of the narrator’s comment earlier that “this dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath”?
”But gold is honorable, and Lawrence promised gold.”
- Auda abu Tayi, “Lawrence of Arabia” (1962)
Wasn’t their commitment to fight the war based on honor, not hope of gain?
“I must find something honorable.”
-ibid
The Dwarves wisely stripped their dead of weapons and gear, to prevent the orcs from getting it. Then they all carried it home, struggling under the extra weight.
H. Given the slow rate of reproduction, when would the extra armor next be worn?
When someone needed it. And better to have too much armor than not enough.
Would it become outdated and useless eventually?
You know how anthropological experts say that people in the Middle Ages were shorter than people today? That assumption is partly based on the size of surviving suits of armor. However, for a suit of armor to survive until today it must not have been worn much, which means it didn’t fit most people. But any average sized suit of armor would have been handed down and worn by many people until it was worn out and useless and thrown away. So people actually may have been of normal height back then.
And further applying that logic, maybe Dwarves weren’t dwarves.
Could it be melted down,…
Considering how much the Dwarves revered crafting that might be a bit problematical.
…or adjusted to fit small men and halflings and resold?
Dwarves always seem to renege on business transactions involving beautiful jewelry and fine armor. Kinda like how some dog breeders fail because they can’t bear to part with their puppies.
The burning of the dead is evidently a big deal.
In the history of war burning the dead to prevent desecration by the enemy wasn’t uncommon. Indeed, I tend to think that’s why Denethor chose immolation for himself and Faramir.
Somehow it sounds to me like this episode is based on some real-world epic event, but nothing I know comes to mind.
I’m thinking The Ashes cricket tournament between England and Australia, but which one would be the Orcs and which one the Dwarves?
I. Anyone?
"Pick me! Pick me! Me! Me!"
-Donkey "Shrek" (2001)
“He was a burned Ottoman”? “He was a burned Frank”? “He was a burned Roman”?
It’s a metallurgical joke. Most metals exist in minerals, primarily carbonates, sulfides, or oxides. To convert carbonates and sulfides to base metal, you first "roast" them to produce metal oxides. Then you smelt the oxides to produce the pure metal. So smelted or “burned“ Dwarves are purer and stronger than impure and brittle un-smelted or “unburned” Dwarves.
The comment about the trees being burned and leaving the valley forever bare, plus the bit about the reek being seen in Lorien, reminds me of the disposal of the fell beast on the Pellenor and the burning of the orc-raiders by Eomer, both in The Lord of the Rings.
J. Coincidence, skillful literary cross-reference, or unimaginative recycling of tropes?
Yes.
K. Speaking of gigantic battles that still make Dwarves weep, why didn’t Gimli, Gloin’s son, mention anything about this when he was giving Frodo the Cook’s Tour of the valley and the Kheled-zaram?
Modesty. Since Gimli’s uncle Fundin fought and died in the battle Gimli would be considered a “Burned Dwarf”. Being so magnificently considerate Gimli doubtless felt his obvious awesomeness was already making Frodo feel inadequate to the entire mission quest thing and didn’t want to make it any worse.
As they contemplate their next move, Thrain seems to offer his son Thorin a choice: ‘Will you come with me back to the anvil? Or will you beg your bread at proud doors?’ Thorin immediately points out that the anvil is good exercise for some future war, thus of course he’ll come along to wherever they’re going.
L. What is the meaning of Thrain’s question? I mean, why did he even feel he had to ask?
Later Thorin will invite Gandalf to his "poor lodgings in exile", a haughty attitude that may already have manifested itself when he was a younger dwarf, and his father may have feared that that haughtiness cause might him to seek asylum with a rich and powerful ruler, and we all know what happened to Hannibal Barca.
They “wander” (why?)…
Maybe they grumbled against Aule?
… out of Dunland and eventually end up in the Blue Hills…
That’s just up the road from where Tolkien was born!
Coincidence? I think not!
…which as we know is where they will stay until the Quest of Erebor begins. The comment that their number “slowly increased” comes with a footnote that “They had very few women-folk. Dis Thrain’s daughter was there. She was the mother of Fili and Kili, who were born in the Ered Luin. Thorin had no wife.”
M. Does “very few” in this context refer to just Thrain’s people, who are the survivors of both Smaug’s destruction of Erebor and the War with the orcs?
Probably not as otherwise the harem of The Lord of the Glittering Caves would have been so large that Gimli would be too busy expanding nurseries rather than leave for Valinor with Legolas.
In other words, did other Dwarf clans have relatively more women, or is “very few” an odd way of referring to the general 1-female/2-male ratio that comes up later in this narrative?
A genetic cause for this particular male-female distribution imbalance could be that the Dwarves have a three-strand DNA helix. Interestingly enough, some geneticists believe the next step in human evolution will be manifested by four-strand DNA, which clearly indicates that Dwarves are the most evolutionarily advanced humanoid race in Middle-earth. Take that Elven supremacists!
The Dwarves of Durin’s Folk, at the end of this section, are ‘prospering after a fashion’ by forging iron goods, and presumably trading them for whatever else they need. “They had little or none” of gold or other precious metals, and so could not become as truly wealthy as they would have liked. But gold was surely available for trade from elsewhere in Middle-earth – and the Dwarves’ craft would multiply the value of any gold ore by a profitable amount, I should have thought.
N. Why do the Dwarves seem to insist on possessing the gold ore in their own mines, before they consider themselves able to “really” prosper?
The prime advantage of autarkic economies is that they are always ready for war with anyone and everybody. That pretty much fits the Dwarven traits of secrecy, stubbornness, and grievance-holding.
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I find so much joy in covering my cat with a blanket and watching the lump move around.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Dec 18 2016, 5:32pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 18 2016, 6:00pm
Post #19 of 19
(3625 views)
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That would tie into Tolkien's native Mercia (Houseman's Shropshire being the other end to Oxford, which was on the Wessex/Mercia border)
Into my heart an air that kills From yon far country blows: What are those blue remembered hills, What spires, what farms are those? That is the land of lost content, I see it shining plain, The happy highways where I went And cannot come again. From A Shropshire Lad, AE Houseman 1896 http://www.poetsgraves.co.uk/housman.htm
The whole history of the dwarves seems to have some Lost Content to it.
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Where's that old read-through discussion?
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the 2014-2016 LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Perhaps it suffices to say "That's nowhere near an appropriate encounter for characters of their level"
[