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squire
Half-elven
Dec 13 2016, 1:02pm
Post #1 of 17
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**LotR Discussion: Appendix A.III, ‘Durin’s Folk’** - 2. We take insults seriously. Very seriously.
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We pick up our discussion of the Dwarves, in The Lord of the Rings Appendix A.III, after Thror, King of Durin’s Folk, has been evicted from the Lonely Mountain by Smaug. He, his son Thrain II, and “a small company of their kinsmen and faithful followers” begin a life of aimless wandering. Here’s a summary of the section of the story that we’ll talk about today.
Summary of pp. 354-355: From the Destruction of Erebor to the climactic point of the Battle of Azanulbizar
Many years pass. The Dwarves are living in Dunland, west of the Misty Mountains. King Thror, “old, poor, and desperate”, resolves to go off alone and seek… what? He does not say, only that he leaves the clan’s revenge on Smaug to his descendants. He gives his last treasure, the Ring of Power, to his son Thrain, with the advice that “it needs gold to breed gold”. But the narrator suggests that it may have been the Ring itself, “turning to evil now that its master was awake”, that sent Thror off the deep end.
So “crazed perhaps”, he crosses the Redhorn Pass with one companion and finds the East Gate of Moria, his ancestors’ great underground city. Against the pleas of his servant, Nar, he walks in as if he owns the place. Nar waits, but there is no sign of Thror until many days later, when his body and head are tossed out onto the steps. The orc chieftain Azog’s name is branded on the forehead, and Azog tells Nar to be off, pelting him with a beggar’s purse of small change as a parting insult.
When Thrain hears of this, he stews for seven days and then declares total war on the race of Orcs. He summons all the other Dwarf clans, who readily respond to “this dishonor to the heir of the Eldest of their race”. After three years of mobilization, the Dwarves assault every orc settlement in the Misty Mountains. The war is fought in the dark, cruelly and with atrocities committed by both sides. The Dwarves prove superior fighters in every way, and in the end one final battle remains to settle accounts with Azog, who remains at large. The forces meet in the vale of Azanulbizar, just below the east gate of Moria by the lake of Kheled-zaram (we remember that Gimli had Frodo and Sam look into this mystic water during the Fellowship’s flight from Moria to Lorien).
The Dwarves, outnumbered and on the lower ground, at first give way. Thrain and his son Thorin are wounded and take refuge in a woods (and Thorin earns his name Oakenshield by using a branch as a makeshift shield). Things look bad for our side. Then the cavalry – or rather, the Dwarves of the Iron Hills – arrive. Led by Nain they hack their way to the gate of Moria itself, looking for Azog. Nain taunts the lurking orc for cowardice, and calls on him to come out and “play”.
Questions
Thror is said to be “old, poor, and desperate” when he goes on his last adventure.
A. What do these words mean in his case? Do they alone explain his decision to abandon his kingship and his people?
B. Why is Thror’s Ring “the last of the Seven Rings”? Is that meaningful or just coincidence?
Thror tells his son Thrain, as he leaves him the Ring, “it needs gold to breed gold”.
C. What does that mean? And how does Thror know it is true?
The narrator (who is this guy?) speculates that Thror’s odd mood was a product of the Ring’s “turning to evil now that its master was awake”. This was the year 2790 (twenty years after Smaug’s attack). We remember (yesterday’s discussion) that the Balrog destroyed Moria in 1981, and the narrator speculated that “it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron” – eight hundred years earlier. Meanwhile in LotR I.2, Gandalf tells Frodo that the One Ring left Gollum, to be picked up by Bilbo, in 2941 “when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood” – 150 years later.
Note how the process of Sauron’s revival took almost a thousand years, and affected its objects in a specific order: for instance, had the One Ring “abandoned” Gollum at the same time Thror’s Ring began to derange him, the One would certainly have been found 200 years earlier by either an orc or a dwarf during the ensuing war!
D. How do you imagine Sauron “awakening” and then “putting forth his power”, etc. so that evil things like the Balrog, the Dwarven Rings, and Gollum’s One Ring would respond with heightened evil energy, in just the order they did?
The passage in this Appendix of The Lord of the Rings says, in part:
[Thror] gave to his son Thráin the one great treasure he still possessed, the last of the Seven Rings…
This seems to relate directly to this passage in The Hobbit, narrated by Gandalf to Thorin:
“Your grandfather,” said the wizard slowly and grimly, “gave the map to his son for safety before he went to the mines of Moria.”
The Hobbit doesn’t mention the Ring; and the LotR Appendix doesn’t mention the Map.
E. Has the legend simply replaced the Map with the Ring, as each story needed a different MacGuffin for Thror to pass on to his son before he is lost?
Thror, from his departure to his bold entry into Moria “as an heir that returns”, acted rashly and even foolishly. The text offers numerous excuses for this.
F. Is folly by a great King always due to external influences? Or was Thror’s actual character flawed in any way?
Thror was in Moria many days before his body was thrown out to taunt the race of Dwarves.
G. Why did it take so long for the orcs to discover, or capture, or execute, or display him?
Nar at the Gate of Moria with Thror’s body by Tulikoura
Azog’s actions and speech – using Dwarvish runes, referring to “your people” and “his family”, assuring Nar that he is needed as a messenger – seem deliberately aimed at provoking the very war that it does. In no way was this a casual or unthought-out act.
H. What were Azog’s motives? What result was he seeking?
Thrain called on all the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk, and even all the Dwarves of “the Houses of other Fathers”, to avenge Thror’s dishonor. All commited to the war, with anger and determination, because Thror was the heir to Durin the Eldest.
I. How many Dwarves or Dwarf-warriors would there be in each House, and where were all the Houses located?
It took three years for the Dwarves to “muster their strength”.
J. What were the logistical problems of the Dwarves (e.g., arms, housing, transport, food, communications, training, morale, etc. and financing for all it) that took (as long as? only?) three years to solve?
Once ready the Dwarven Army systematically “assailed and sacked” each and every orc stronghold in the Misty Mountains.
K. Mobilization is one thing, fighting is another. How did the Dwarven army deploy its forces underground, with the attendant difficulties of communications, supply, lines of attack and retreat, and need to achieve surprise?
L. For instance: was there a general in chief and guiding strategy? when did the orcs recognize the genocidal nature of the war? did they organize a systematic resistance and counter-attack against Dwarven strongholds and supply bases? how did the Dwarves’ intelligence operation work against a different race, etc.?
The War of the Dwarves and Goblins
The story emphasizes war crimes and atrocities: “Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light.”
M. Is this intended to set this war off from those fought by Men or Elves, whether against each other or against orcs and other dark forces? Were the other races of the Free Peoples less “cruel” or “pitiless” in Middle-earth’s wars?
The final battle was fought in the open, between lines of forces that engaged in a general melee centered around elite leaders or fighters, much like the Battle of Five Armies, the Battle of Bywater, the Battle of the Pellenor Fields, and numerous other ‘conventional’ medieval-style battles in Middle-earth.
N. Why was the final battle not set inside Moria, in an endless maze of dark tunnels and halls like where the rest of this unusual underground war was fought?
The Battle of Azanulbizar by Janin
The arms of the Dwarves of the Iron Hills are described, in some slight detail: “the mailed warriors…” and “hewed down with their mattocks.” There is no mention of how the already-engaged Dwarven warriors were equipped.
O. What do these terms mean? Should we conclude that the other Dwarves were losing against the orcs up to this point because they did not have similar weapons?
Tomorrow: It’s Azog and his elite Guard vs. Durin’s heirs at the climax of the Battle of Azanulbizar -- and then what happened after.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 13 2016, 3:15pm
Post #2 of 17
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The Seven Houses of the Dwarves
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Thrain called on all the Dwarves of Durin’s Folk, and even all the Dwarves of “the Houses of other Fathers”, to avenge Thror’s dishonor. All commited to the war, with anger and determination, because Thror was the heir to Durin the Eldest.
I. How many Dwarves or Dwarf-warriors would there be in each House, and where were all the Houses located?
According to The Peoples of Middle-earth, two of the Seven Houses. the Broadbeams and the Firebeards, were founded in the Blue Mountains. These are presumably the Naugrim who built the cities of Belegost and Nogrod; presumably some of their folk continued to dwell in the Ered Luin throughout the Second and Third Ages, especially in the southern range. Durin the Deathless established the halls of Khazad-dûm in the Misty Mountains. The Dwarf-fathers (and mothers) of the remaining Houses--the Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks and Stonefoots--are stated to have awoke in the Orocarni Mountains in the East.
Upon learning of the murder of Thror, Thrain sent messengers "north, east, and west" to the other Houses, so it seems that no colonies of the Naugrim had migrated to the lands of the South. The nearest Dwarves other than other Longbeards might possibly have built mansions in the mountains adjacent to the inland Sea of Rhûn. But as to the size of each of the Houses and the number of fighters that they could muster, we don't have enough information. We are told that by the time of the Battle of Azanulbizar (in 2799) the Dwarven army was outnumbered by the Orcs gathered in Moria.
It took three years for the Dwarves to “muster their strength”.
J. What were the logistical problems of the Dwarves (e.g., arms, housing, transport, food, communications, training, morale, etc. and financing for all it) that took (as long as? only?) three years to solve?
The halls and mansions of the Dwarves were spread across thousands of miles, from the Blue Mountains to the Orocarni. Presumably they gathered in the hills of Dunland. Supply lines had to be established, a chain of command needed to be hammered out (sorry!), and the Dwarves needed to plan their strategies. And the fighters (and the necessary support personnel) still needed to be housed and fed in the meantime. We also don't know how the Dunlendings felt about such a large mustering of Naugrim; some careful diplomacy might have been needed to keep relations cordial.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Meneldor
Valinor
Dec 13 2016, 3:22pm
Post #3 of 17
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My theory is that Azog was willing to fight a long-term war of attrition, sacrificing many orcs to kill dwarves. I think Azog knew that dwarves reproduce slowly, and orcs seem to breed like maggots. So in the long run, the orcs would replenish their lost forces quickly, much more quickly than the slow-breeding dwarves.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 13 2016, 7:44pm
Post #4 of 17
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So “crazed perhaps”, he crosses the Redhorn Pass with one companion and finds the East Gate of Moria, his ancestors’ great underground city.
I wonder why. If any knew the password of the West gate, it would surely be the heir of Durin? Was he originally intending to go to Moria?
B. Why is Thror’s Ring “the last of the Seven Rings”? Is that meaningful or just coincidence?
Seems to indicate that of all the Dwarves the people of Thror were best at keeping it secret. Interestingly some dwarf-rings are said to have been destroyed by dragon fire. Supposedly dragons have no use for magical ring?
C. What does that mean? And how does Thror know it is true?
Sounds a bit like it would be a transmitter for good investment advice...
E. Has the legend simply replaced the Map with the Ring, as each story needed a different MacGuffin for Thror to pass on to his son before he is lost?
Replaced doesn't seem right. The legend requires both to be given, but when one was written only the map had been thought of, and when the other was written the map had already been covered elsewhere.
G. Why did it take so long for the orcs to discover, or capture, or execute, or display him?
Torture and humiliations is what comes to mind. Pehaps he was made to work for them out of cruelty or something.
H. What were Azog’s motives? What result was he seeking?
There are many posiblities here. Azog could be an agent of Sauron, or he could be a servant of the Balrog, or he could be his own man. One idea is that Azog may have known or learned about Thrors ring, and tortured him for many years trying to find out its whereabouts. Failing that he triggered a war hoping to get that ring to come to him. All guess and speculation though. Nothing in the texts to support it.
I. ... where were all the Houses located?
Some would be far off to the East. These are the most difficult ones. Did they come? And how? The mountains ranges of the East aren't mentioned and unless there are tunnels somewhere a Dwarven army marching from the East would have to travel through several alarmed and suspicious Human kingdoms*. Possibly the dwarves from the east came unarmed and as civilians to join a cause?
* (Unless they could have marched in the North under the Iron Hills??)
Once ready the Dwarven Army systematically “assailed and sacked” each and every orc stronghold in the Misty Mountains.
Strange maybe that a war between the race of Dwarves and the race of Orcs should be so centered around one mountain range. Were there no Orcs at all in the East?
N. Why was the final battle not set inside Moria, in an endless maze of dark tunnels and halls like where the rest of this unusual underground war was fought?
Here again we don't know if Azog was his own man or if he was ordered out to deal with the meddling dwarves.
O. What do these terms mean? Should we conclude that the other Dwarves were losing against the orcs up to this point because they did not have similar weapons?
I wouldn't say that's why they were losing, but it is possible that many of them had limited equipment. A strange thought given the general skill of Dwarves in such manufacture and archetypical image of them, but the house of Durin was know to be driven out and poor, and many Dwarves joining up from the East may not have had the possibility of bringing huge stores of arms over wide distances.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 13 2016, 7:47pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 13 2016, 9:56pm
Post #5 of 17
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Is Tolkien thinking of the Andvaranaut, a Ring with similar properties which appears in the Volsunga Saga? The Ring belongs to a dwarf called Andvari. Loki steals it to pay a blood debt, and Andvari curses it so that all who possess it will suffer misfortune. A long saga follows as these misfortunes work out ...
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 13 2016, 10:25pm
Post #6 of 17
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It does sound like an alchemist's transmutation device
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which I'm sure Tolkien didn't intend, since he doesn't seem to like magical things to be too mechanical. But I am left wondering just what that means. Clearly it doesn't give you any gold if you have none at all. But if you have 10 gold coins and leave them overnight, do you wake up and find 20?
Or does it mean if you go mining in a mountain and find a gold vein, the Ring will make that vein more abundant?
Or does it make your children have blond/golden hair? Always stumped by this one. Overall, the Seven don't seem worth the bother.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 13 2016, 10:28pm
Post #7 of 17
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Strategy or stupidity? Feud, genocide, or religious war?
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I can't decide whether Azog is deliberately provoking a major war for some strategic reason, or whether he's just humiliating someone because he likes to, and thinks he can get away with it.
Similarly, I can't decide whether the dwarves war is genocidal, or a personal feud. Certainly once Azog has been killed the war ends - but both sides are exhausted by then. But if the aim was only to find and kill Azog, why attack other orc strongholds? They know where Azog is: Moria.
I think People's of Middle-earth indicates that the dwarves also retook Gundabad, and that this was a holy site for them, being "where Durin awoke". The idea is that the capture of Gundabad was a major reason for the dwarves hating orcs. So maybe, like many wars, there were multiple causes and war aims?
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 13 2016, 11:06pm
Post #8 of 17
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Why bother with Rings of Power?
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I think the idea is that you can't help it - they're tailored to each race's tragic flaw. So the elves want to preserve things, the dwarves value gold, and Men crave immortality. These things the Rings give, but at a price that might make you wish you hadn't bothered. For example the Nine get endless existence... as undead slaves. The One Ring fits this scheme too, giving power to command, at the cost of falling under the power of the Ring.
The effects of the Seven don't really come out in the story or this Appendix, as far as I can see. I expect the dwarf leaders with Rings to prosper fantastically , but with some cursed misfortune attached. Maybe this is why they delve too deep, attract sufficient wealth to bring on dragons; or go off to exploit new sites and spread their people too thinly. It feels like there ought to be the same irresistible but bad bargain as for the other Rings: great benefits, but a Faustian bargain. But this idea doesn't really work for the Seven, because dwarves continue to be like that once the Seven have been destroyed or regained by Sauron.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 14 2016, 3:13am
Post #9 of 17
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Why no dwarves south of Dunland?
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Do we ever get a reason why the dwarves never try their luck south of Dunland, in those White Mountains? I'm not sure they would care much that it belonged to Gondor... plus from the Gondor p.o.v., after the orcs tried to establish themselves in the White Mountains it seems like having a dwarf colony around might help keep the riff-raff out.
During all those years of wandering, why not go south? Too warm for a bearded people? :)
I'm always intrigued anyways about how the men were able to eradicate the orcs from the White Mountains, it doesn't seem like they'd be effective at rooting them out from inside their hiding places. But that's another Appendix...
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 14 2016, 3:18am
Post #10 of 17
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I'm the King, I'm not going in thru any back door...
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Seems like possibly he felt that as King and Heir to Moria, he was entitled to enter through the 'Royal' entrance. I get the impression that although the west gate was heavily used during the trading days, it was far removed from the main Halls, right? So although it meant traipsing up and down Caradhras, it would allow him to enter as a King should.
Not saying it's logical of course.
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 14 2016, 3:27am
Post #11 of 17
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A Map, a Ring, and oh, some other stuff...
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It doesn't seem terribly out-of-place to have different items mentioned in different places, as being passed on. As a reader sometimes we tend to take the specific items mentioned as the totality of what was given/exchanged/found/etc. For most stories, they only concern themselves with items that are pertinent to the tale being told, without giving a laundry list accounting.
Granted, this thinking may allow for a sloppy author who doesn't keep good track of things!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 14 2016, 9:45am
Post #12 of 17
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How to attack an underground fortress?
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Pretty difficult I'd have thought: in a conventional castle attackers would try to climb over the walls or knock them down, which might not be options here. So I think that leaves trying to rush the gates, starving the defenders out, or trying to tunnel your way into their network of mine-workings/underground passages.
If it's a big sprawling network (part mine, part city) perhaps it would be hard to patrol, and you might infiltrate enough attackers to establish a bridgehead?
Mining (and counter-mining: digging tunnels to intercept the attackers' mine) was a thing in Medieval sieges. This part of the story also reminds me of something I once read about mining operations on the Western Front. Apparently both sides tried to tunnel their way to advantage, and to intercept enemy tunnels. Underground fighting did happen when mines met. But I understand there were incidents of great gallantry as miners tried to rescue and capture enemies whose tunnel they'd just blown up moments earlier.
Maybe that was something influencing Tolkiens imagination here?
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 14 2016, 12:36pm
Post #13 of 17
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Sauron is awakening! Sauron needs another 5 minutes - or make that 80 years...
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I can sympathise - I don't exactly spring out of bed myself on dark winter mornings...
D. How do you imagine Sauron “awakening” and then “putting forth his power”, etc. so that evil things like the Balrog, the Dwarven Rings, and Gollum’s One Ring would respond with heightened evil energy, in just the order they did?
Maybe this is an example of Tolkien trying to systematise things a bit unnecessarily? He's providing a neat explanation for what happens, rather than let readers decide that there are various evil powers in the world, and that they don't necessarily need to all be in cahoots (or, let readers imagine any collaboration for themselves). I don't think I'd have had a problem if the dwarves accidentally waking a balrog as a separate source of trouble to attracting unwanted attention from dragons. Or, perhaps I'd conclude that the Seven Rings came with a sort of curse, and no further action was required by Sauron to cause trouble.
It's also one of those places where Tolkien's explanation doesn't satisfy for long - it only stirs up further questions (such as how come Sauron's strengthening power has these effects in this convenient order and on the appropriate time line).
It's something I'm noticing generally in these appendices (as we noticed during the last UT read-through: Tolkien's attempts to neaten,regularise and explain sometimes aren't as satisfying as being left with a striking image or idea, but no attempt at logical explanation.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 14 2016, 12:53pm
Post #14 of 17
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Do we ever get a reason why the dwarves never try their luck south of Dunland, in those White Mountains? I'm not sure they would care much that it belonged to Gondor... plus from the Gondor p.o.v., after the orcs tried to establish themselves in the White Mountains it seems like having a dwarf colony around might help keep the riff-raff out.
I am going to speculate that the Númenóreans established their own mining operations in the White Mountains during the Second Age and the Dwarves did not want to compete with them.
During all those years of wandering, why not go south? Too warm for a bearded people? :)
Durin's Folk, at least, did go south as far as the Gap of Rohan and Dunland. Perhaps a few did settle down in the White Mountains and the southern end of the Misty Mountains. Certainly the armies of the Seven Houses must have been encamped in the foothills during the great muster against the Orcs, unless the armies gathered in the Iron Hills (though I doubt that region could have sustained so many Dwarves for very long).
I've seen JRRT's sketches of Arda that have appeared in The Shaping of MIddle-earth. There doesn't seem to be any other mountain ranges to the south of the Orocarni (with the exception of the Mountains of Mordor) that would have been close enough to tempt the Eastern Dwarves to migrate South,
Illustration by Karen Wynn Fonstad:
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 14 2016, 12:55pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 14 2016, 6:26pm
Post #15 of 17
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If in this place you are detained,
Don’t look around you all in vain.
But cast your net and ye shall find,
That every cloud is silver-lined.
-Carved in underground stone by an anonymous British sapper
Apparently Goblins/Orcs are tunnelers whose skill matches the Dwarves:
They can tunnel and mine as well as any but the most skilled dwarves, when they take the trouble, though they are usually untidy and dirty.
-Over Hill and Under Hill
And apparently Goblins/Orcs are very good at making hidden doors in rock that even Dwarves might not notice:
A crack had opened at the back of the cave, and was already a wide passage.
…
The crack closed with a snap, and Bilbo and the dwarves were on the wrong side of it!
-ibid
As for 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien, he would be aware that German microphones could, depending on conditions, pick up the signals from his telephone wires via earth induction. Similarly he and his telephone operators could sometimes hear the communications of the Germans. And both could sometimes hear the sounds of sappers. There are tales of above ground telephone and geophone operators listening in helpless horror as British and German sappers met in desperate underground combat. In any case, surely Tolkien had heard of “The Sewer Rats of the Somme”.
I might recommend the BBC two part series Birdsong (2012) based on the 1993 war novel by Sebastian Faulks. Nice drama about WWI British sappers.
******************************************
I find so much joy in covering my cat with a blanket and watching the lump move around.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Dec 14 2016, 6:26pm)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 18 2016, 10:59am
Post #16 of 17
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Just one little question and something I've wondered
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Where the Goblins of the north strongest,
Before the war of the Goblins and the Dwarves
Before the battle of the five armies or
Before the War of the Ring
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 20 2016, 4:54am
Post #17 of 17
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Good point - it's not clear how much effect the Rings really had on the Dwarves' "fatal flaw".
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In The Hobbit, written before the Rings were conceived of, Thorin's unnatural lust for gold and treasure after Smaug's death is said to be a result of "the power that gold has, upon which a dragon has long brooded" (Hobbit XV). Then as Tolkien contemplated a sequel, again before he settled on the Ring as the best plot device, he sketched out Bilbo being overcome by a kind of dragon-spell, involving a desire for more money and a second quest for dragon-treasure (HoME I). Smaug, seemingly, was the original "Ring of Power"!
Then in the Silmarillion legends, before even The Hobbit, Tolkien had already developed the Dwarves' overpowering interest in treasure in parallel with the Elves', merging the Silmarils and the Nauglamir and the evil spells of Glaurung the dragon into an all-purpose morality tale about the perils of greed.
So as you say, this whole idea that the Dwarves' Rings 'inflamed' their desire for treasure and their jealous and possessive natures, seems kind of redundant. Tolkien's Dwarves were fundamentally "like that", enough so to drive half a dozen legends and stories, both before and after they held their Rings of Power.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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