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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 8 2016, 9:06pm
Post #51 of 78
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Well, once someone calls for lawyers, I know it's time to rest my case. //
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 8 2016, 9:22pm
Post #52 of 78
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Saruman had no apparent difficulty imprisoning Gandalf atop Orthanc.
Gandalf did come alone, not counting his horse perhaps who would in any case not be trained to break him out.
I figured he reasoned they wouldn't unlock the doors of Isengard for him,
The gate closed silently behind me, and suddenly I was afraid, though I knew no reason for it.
He wanted out though by his own record, and I imagine the top of Orthanc could be a cold drafty place,
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 8 2016, 9:26pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 8 2016, 10:04pm
Post #54 of 78
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Gandalf’s ‘resistance’ to imprisonment
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How positive are we that the fact that Saruman imprisoned Gandalf, means that Gandalf could not have effectively resisted?
‘…It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.’ . . .
‘I stayed the night in Bree, and decided that I had no time to return to the Shire. Never did I make a greater mistake!
[Saruman] ‘”Until you reveal to me where the One may be found. I may find means to persuade you.’” … ‘”That may not prove to be one of the lighter matters,’” said I. He laughed at me, for my words were empty, and he knew it.’
-The Council of Elrond This (and the letter for Frodo left at Bree) indicates to me that Gandalf was in a hurry. Would he allow himself to be imprisoned if he had any chance of defeating Saruman? So, yes, although no physical contest is mentioned in the corpus (bag the film) I personally am quite sure that Gandalf the Grey had no chance against Saruman and he knew it.
All we see about Gandalf is that he is reluctant to contest power with power (both by mandate as well as by nature). … they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power…
-Appendix B, The Third Age I’m not sure if this ‘matching power with power’ applies only to Sauron, but it appears THIS is the mandate.
But then we must consider Amon Sul and the Balrog (as I continue to contradict myself . . . with little glee  ).
Edit: Add in what Squire said up yonder if you need more convincing.
*getting lost here*
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Dec 8 2016, 10:14pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 8 2016, 10:19pm
Post #55 of 78
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Gandalf does seem helpless at Isengard
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and doesn't seem to put up a fight, or admit to losing one if he did.
But I was thinking the same things that you cited: he didn't go out looking for fights, but he would defend himself agaisnt the Nazgul at Weathertop and the Balrog in Moria.
I think Gandalf's captivity is plot-driven rather than driven by Middle-earth logic. Tolkien needed to keep him out of the picture while Frodo got from the Shire to Rivendell without him, allowing Trotter/Strider to stride into the story. If we're discussing what was possible within Middle-earth's lore, Gandalf showed what kinds of fights he could put up. Yet presumably Saruman could have equaled him closely enough, and of course Gandalf died in Moria, so a dead Wizard isn't much use,and he knew that.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 8 2016, 10:26pm
Post #56 of 78
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But Saruman carries out his mission so well - not that he means to
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His imprisonment of Gandalf forces the hobbits to set off without a guide, and to make the beginners mistake of getting captured by a wight. That adventure acquires them a handy-anti Nazgűl weapon, without which the Battle of the Pelenor fields might not have been won.
Gandalf leads the Fellowship into Moria in preference to taking the Ring near Isengard, a decision that leads directly to Gandalf's resurrection as The White.
Saruman's attempt to snatch the Ringbearer not only forces Frodo and Sam to part from the Fellowship but then leads to a whole series of events that allow the War of the Ring to be won.
Saruman is the inadvertent hero of the Tale!
Maybe the Lady Varda knew just what she was doing...
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 8 2016, 10:34pm
Post #57 of 78
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Yes, HUGE changes and advances in convenience
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Sure, the gadgets have changed over the years, but I wonder if any generation had as radical a change in living environments as those who experienced all the changes from (very roughly) 1900 to 2000. Yet I worry (hopefully needlessly) about our information age (or mis-information age), as we seem to slowly yet insidiously to become less and less sociable as everyone is too busy looking at the palm of their hand to look up with a pleasant face-to-face “Howdy”. But ‘sociable’ is as ‘sociable’ does, Forrest Gump might say.
Of course this comes from an old duffer who has a cell phone but only uses it to make or receive phone calls. (I’ve never sent a text msg. and if I want internet I use my home computer.) *here I am*
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Dec 8 2016, 10:35pm
Post #58 of 78
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“I was delayed, and that nearly proved our ruin. And yet I am not sure: it may have been better so.”
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 8 2016, 10:58pm
Post #60 of 78
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And if Merry and Pippin hadn’t been captured by the orcs
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There would be no Ents or Huorns at Helm’s Deep. The battle would be lost. Aragorn would be killed. No muster of Rohan, no “Forth Eorlingas!”, no Dead Men of Dunharrow, no Corsairs of Umbar, no Army of the West, no Muster to the Isenmouthe. Gorgoroth would be filled with orcs. Frodo captured, Ring captured. All is lost. All is lost for the one-time Free Peoples. All is lost!
Merry and Pippin are the true heroes, as they gave haste to the Ents!
Or are the Ents and Huorns the true inadvertent heroes? I just don’t know! 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 9 2016, 4:09pm
Post #62 of 78
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*Reading Room investigators have discovered Grima wrote this post.*
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Since pro-Saruman propaganda isn't technically illegal and is protected as free speech, we won't try to delete it, even though we all know that pro-Saruman agents will wind up crushed by talking trees or killed by little people in some uncouth land named Shire.
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 9 2016, 6:24pm
Post #63 of 78
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I can conclusively prove that the real hero is Bill the Pony
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The queer fox. Take a challenge.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 9 2016, 8:18pm
Post #64 of 78
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(Er, this is (not ENTIRELY serious, entirely  )
The Fellowship would have frozen to death on Caradhras if not for the faggots of wood each carried on the advice of Boromir, and The Ring would likely be lost for another couple thousand years – and the whole tale takes a frosty twist.
Thus the faggots of wood are the true heroes. (Can a faggot of wood be a hero?)
Or would it be Boromir?
Certainly not Gandalf, as he said, “I cannot burn snow.” Well, gee-‘wiz’! 
Or, as noWiz says I can conclusively prove that the real hero is Bill the Pony  .
Which could also be true as Bill most likely carried more faggots than anyone else.
*Sooo confused *
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 9 2016, 8:54pm
Post #65 of 78
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If the fox had made an effort to find out more about it by asking a handy passing spooky dude on a black horse, Frodo would have been nobbled one day out from Hobbiton and all Middle Earth doomed for aye.
The real hero is the incurious fox! QED
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 9 2016, 9:11pm
Post #66 of 78
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The fox, emissary of the Dark Lord
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I always thought it suspicious that the Ringwraiths happened to find the hobbits so quickly after leaving Bag End. These Ringwraiths weren't that good in the daylight, and Frodo wasn't wearing the Ring so they couldn't sense its power that way. And these stealthy hobbits were taking well-known paths in their homeland, while the Black Riders were tremendously out of their comfort zone.
Yet just a day after encountering the fox, the hobbits are found and the chase begins! The Nazgul would probably still be sniffing around the Shire trying to locate 'Baggins' -- well after Gandalf escapes from Isengard, rounds up Strider, and together they find the Hobbits snoozing in Crickhollow after eating second breakfast. If it wasn't for the info the Ringwraiths most certainly obtained from that traitor fox
Hero Fox indeed! More like agent of evil...
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 9 2016, 9:16pm
Post #67 of 78
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I don't know if favourite is the right word, since many of them are very sad, but here are two that seem to embody that quintessentially Tolkienish skill of hinting at whole realms and vistas underlying the story.
Brego - he dies of grief, how terrible.
Thengel - it's sad that his family had to cope with some xenophobia. I would like to know why he didn't want to be king. And then there's the underage marriage, why wouldn't he wait - I can't tell if the Rohirrim would have found that as creepy as a modern reader (and Tolkien, who seems disapproving). There seems to be a whole story in that brief entry.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Dec 10 2016, 2:05am
Post #69 of 78
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Google "inanimate carbon rod."
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 10 2016, 3:48am
Post #70 of 78
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Or maybe it’s ‘game over’? (Hope not.)
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As I think I have proven to a fair degree of reliability that YOUR postulate that Bill the Pony was the real hero of the quest. 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 10 2016, 4:00am
Post #71 of 78
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I guess inanimate objects CAN be heroes . . . Rods, Faggots of wood and ??
Or maybe the log they hid under in 'Three’s Company'… (Work it out!)
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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hanne
Lorien
Dec 10 2016, 3:57pm
Post #72 of 78
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After we play noWizardme's "real hero" game we can play "real villain" - but you might just have won!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 11 2016, 8:48am
Post #73 of 78
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Did the Rohirrim and the Dunlendings have to be enemies?
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The Dunlendings seemed to be of the same stock as the men of Bree or even of the wild-men in Gondor. The men of Rohan did get on with these people. They where possibly even related vaguely and there must have been some inter-breeding. I would have thought that over the centuries some kind of reconcilation should have been possible and then maybe they would have been allies rather than enemies in the War of the Ring. Not that a few hundred Dunlendings would have made much difference I suppose.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 11 2016, 8:51am
Post #74 of 78
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It's possibly not the type of thing an English monarch would do
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At the height of their powers anyway, but Scottish royal history is full of Kings falling out and physically fighting their nobility. Still, to the subject in hand, I can't help but think that Gandalf, had he been there, would have advised something different!
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Dec 12 2016, 2:36am
Post #75 of 78
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Different times, different rules.
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Rohan was not Gondor; JRRT was very careful to showcase the difference between Numenoreans and other Men of the time. In Gondor Freca would likely have faced more formal charges, ranging from attempting to force an unwanted marriage all the way to possible treason; the Rohirrim were less High, for want of a better word. Kings of the Mark, and likely other Middle-earth kingdoms, ruled by show of strength. Freca challenged Helm's authority, albeit in a passive-aggressive fashion, and was called out for it in a more rudimentary way than the Lords of Gondor would have effected.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Heroic faggots of wood. . .
[
