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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Dec 6 2016, 7:45am
Post #1 of 78
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** The House of Eorl ** 2. Rohan
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The history of Rohan (from the Sindarin word Rochand) is dominated by difficulties with the Dunlendings and the towering figure of Helm Hammerhand. Helm strikes me as being a prototypical Viking: tough, fearless, belligerant, and not very wise.
1. Tolkien included these tales of Helm Hammerhand for a reason. What purpose does this portrait serve for readers of LotR?
We also meet Saruman here for the first time (except for his cameo in The Hobbit). Beren, Steward of Gondor, gave him leave to reside in Isengard, and he naturally established relations with the Rohirrim, whose land lay on the route from Isengard to Gondor.
2. What was Beren thinking? How does it make sense to have Saruman sited at such a great distance? What is his purpose?
3. For that matter, what was Saruman's purpose in taking up permenant abode there? Is it just about the Stone?
4. Do you think Beren knew about the Stone in Isengard?
We are provided a detailed summary of the kings of Rohan, including the First line (which ended with the death of Helm Hammerhand and his sons); the second, which ends with Théoden; and the start of the Third line beginning with Éomer. With most we are favored with lovely little snapshots.
5. Do you have favorites among these snapshots?
6. Taking these snapshots all together, what kind of portrait does it paint of the Rohirrim?
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Dec 6 2016, 7:47am)
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 6 2016, 1:03pm
Post #2 of 78
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2. What was Beren thinking? How does it make sense to have Saruman sited at such a great distance? What is his purpose?
Do we know how "well-known" the White Council was outside of the actual council members? That is, did Gondor know about the White Council?
Regardless, based on the difficulties with the Dunlendings, I'd imagine it's the perfect place to have a wizard, even if you didn't know he was the head of the White Council (basically the de facto leader of the non-Gondorean West).
Having a wizard inhabit Isengard keeps enemies from retaking it, and hopefully discourages enemies from trying to cross the Gap of Rohan. A nice favor from Gondor to their ally Rohan.
Plus, at that point nobody believed that Dol Goldur was the residence of Sauron (he was keeping a low profile), and although 'evil things' were in Minas Morgul and the like, I don't imagine Gondor really wanted a wizard intruding on their 'local affairs'.
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 6 2016, 1:10pm
Post #3 of 78
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Cameos were Tolkien's thing - that's why The Hobbit is as much a world-shaking epic as LotR is.
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“I am a wizard,” continued Gandalf. “I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Saruman who lives near the Southern borders of Fangorn Forest?”
“Yes; rather a dwimmer-crafty fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again, or so I thought anyway,” said Beorn. “Well, now I know who you are, or who you say you are. What do you want?” - The Hobbit, 7.
squire online:
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(This post was edited by squire on Dec 6 2016, 1:13pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 6 2016, 1:14pm
Post #4 of 78
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I'm sure Saruman was able to come up with every sort of compelling argument for getting what he wanted!
In some ways, making him steward of Orthanc might have seemed like a clever move for Beren (all magical persuasion aside). Isengard is a key fortress, guarding the Gap of Rohan. But I infer Beren doesn't have the men to hold it himself, and either it deliberately hasn't been included in he gift of land to the Rohirrim, or they didn't want it, not being much of a people for fortresses except in times of emergency. Perhaps it seemed like an excellent plan to lease it to someone as trusty as Saruman - it would be held for Gondor by a friendly power, whilst not having to send a detachment of the Gondorian army way over there (and marching too and fro across Rohan, potentially causing friction with the allies). Maybe too, having the HQ of the Istari on Gondorian Soil would be prestigious, and give Beren and his successors the opportunity to consult or involve wizards when needed.
The palantiri were a state secret, of course. Maybe Beren knew there was one in Orthanc, and was content to let Saruman use it? It would give him a secret hot line to the chief wizard, which could seem very handy...
From Saruman's POV he of course gets a Tower in which to be a Power, as well as the stone. But maybe he explained to the other wizards that they needed a prestigious HQ in order to get men to take them seriously, and of course really it was the observatory he was most interested in
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 6 2016, 1:37pm
Post #5 of 78
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The other way around the White Mountains
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Here is the first time I find mention really made of the western route around the White Mountains actually being used. First when the bad guys attack, they land at the mouths of the Lefnui (Gondor proper) and Isen (who knows what's there). And they join up with the Dunlending forces that are coming from west of the Gap of Rohan and from Isengard.
Then when the invaders are finally defeated, help comes from Gondor "by the roads both east and west of the mountains".
Do we get any idea elsewhere how 'well-traveled' this western route is? Any trading? It doesn't seem like Gondor is ever attacked from this way, or do we hear of Dunlending-type raiders bothering the far western reaches of Gondor? I'd think there must be some type of population in this western edge of Gondor, otherwise I'm not sure what sense it would make to send a force along these western roads if there's nothing to support it.
And how about the mouth of the Isen - seems like if the invaders could land there in force, in might be a good place for a city, fort, etc. At least it doesn't seem so marshy that troops are unable to make their way inland.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 6 2016, 3:14pm
Post #6 of 78
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“I am a wizard,” continued Gandalf. “I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Saruman who lives near the Southern borders of Fangorn Forest?”
You mean 'Radagast'. Saruman is never named in The Hobbit. Or is there a joke there that I'm just not getting?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 6 2016, 3:15pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 6 2016, 3:53pm
Post #7 of 78
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Do we get any idea elsewhere how 'well-traveled' this western route is? Any trading? It doesn't seem like Gondor is ever attacked from this way, or do we hear of Dunlending-type raiders bothering the far western reaches of Gondor? I'd think there must be some type of population in this western edge of Gondor, otherwise I'm not sure what sense it would make to send a force along these western roads if there's nothing to support it.
I find it curious that there is no sign of a trade route that runs through Southern Gondor from the gap near Druwaith Iaur. I could see such a road falling into disuse, especially after the ruin of Tharbad, but I see no indication that one ever existed.
We know that the North-South Road that ran through Tharbad and the Gap or Rohan provided a trade route between Gondor and Arnor, as well as a path to the Blue Mountains for Thrain and his followers after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. But, by the War of the Ring, the road was so little used that the bridge at Tharbad had fallen into ruin more than a century prior and had not been rebuilt (making for a tricky, even dangerous, crossing at the River Greyflood).
It would seem that any enemies of Gondor who might attack it from the west would rather do so by sea than by land. After being devastated by plague and floods, no one seems to have wanted to invade, much less occupy, the regions of Enedwaith or Minhiriath.
And how about the mouth of the Isen - seems like if the invaders could land there in force, in might be a good place for a city, fort, etc. At least it doesn't seem so marshy that troops are unable to make their way inland.
Wasn't that the original purpose of Isengard? To defend the Gap of Rohan?
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 6 2016, 3:55pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 6 2016, 4:24pm
Post #8 of 78
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Meaning during earlier years (not as an Isengard alternative!)
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Yep, my post wasn't completely clear, hopefully this doesn't muddy things further...
My reference to the invaders ability to disembark at the mouth of the Isen was meant to conclude that not only was it a 'usable harbor', but also that the surrounding land would provide viable access for an armed force to move from the coast inland all the way to Rohan. So the harbor was deep enough for ships, had a dockable location (or everything was ferried, so no cliffs or endless marshes), and then all the war machine could move from the coast further inland.
So in all the 2nd/3rd Age years, it seems a nice place for "somebody" to establish some kind of city or base, for whatever reason they might have. But I didn't mean to imply that Gondor would be interested in that location, although I see how my post might indicate that. Perhaps Dunlendings and other assorted types that might want a coastal location from which to launch potential attacks on western Gondor?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 6 2016, 7:18pm
Post #9 of 78
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I think I did misinterpret your meaning a bit, plus I didn't go back and re-read the relevant portion of Appendix A. I agree that Tolkien's Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor seem not to have made as much use of natural coastal harbors and other sites as they should have. Gondor's western lands, at the height of the kingdom, extended as far north as Tharbad and included the harbor of Lond Daer at the mouth of the Greyflood. There seems to be no good reason why there wasn't a port at the mouth of the Isen as well. Perhaps there was, but knowledge of it has been lost to history.
The region of Enedwaith seems never to have been heavily populated. Maybe we should just assume that the first invasion of Angmar and the Great Plague caused most of the region to be abandoned, with the flooding following the Fell Winter of 2911 doing the rest. I'm not sure what effect the Kin-strife had on the region, but it couldn't have helped.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 6 2016, 7:19pm)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Dec 7 2016, 3:51am
Post #10 of 78
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I'd hazard a guess that the Dunedain have not forgotten
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what happened to Numenor. That could create an aversion to coastal dwellings.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 7 2016, 3:56am
Post #11 of 78
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Yes, the quotes sent me scampering for my copy
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And I assumed it was another just another outdated Ballantine edition as my copy of LOTR is. (see below)
If it’s a joke, I’m not getting’ it either… and I suppose Squire's quoting from a Newer Revised Ed.?
“I am a wizard,” continued Gandalf. “I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Saruman who lives near the Southern borders of Fangorn Forest?” Mine reads:
“I am a wizard," continued Gandalf. “I have heard of you, if you have not heard of me; but perhaps you have heard of my good cousin Radagast who lives near the Southern borders of Mirkwood?”
“Yes; rather a dwimmer-crafty fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again, or so I thought anyway,” said Beorn. “Well, now I know who you are, or who you say you are. What do you want?” - The Hobbit, 7.
Mine reads:
“Yes; not a bad fellow as wizards go, I believe. I used to see him now and again,” said Beorn. “Well, now I know who you are, or who you say you are. What do you want?”
Using my Ballantine pb © 1937, 1938 and 1966
Revised Edition:
First Printing: January 1982
Eighth Printing: May 1984
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Dec 7 2016, 3:59am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 7 2016, 4:48am
Post #12 of 78
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Yes, that should have been the giveaway! I was dense.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Dec 7 2016, 7:25am
Post #13 of 78
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Yes, Gondor is theoretically vulnerable from the Gap of Rohan, but Rohan has an army, and Saruman does not. What advantage does Gondor gain by having Saruman in Isengard that's better than having Rohan manage it?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 7 2016, 1:47pm
Post #14 of 78
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Isengard Captured; Invasions by Land and Sea
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Yes, Gondor is theoretically vulnerable from the Gap of Rohan, but Rohan has an army, and Saruman does not. What advantage does Gondor gain by having Saruman in Isengard that's better than having Rohan manage it?
Isengard fell under the control of the Dunlendings in TA 2710 and they held the fortress for several decades. It was only after the Dunlending king Wulf was defeated that Saruman was given the keys to Isengard in the year 2959. In this way, both Gondor and the Rohirrim were freed from needing to provide the manpower to man the place.
I had overlooked the fact that in 2958 a combined naval force from both Umbar and Harad attacked Gondor at multiple points, including from the mouth of the Isen. If Gondor did maintain any fortifications there then they were probably overrun and destroyed at that time.
The attackers came up the Isen and through the Gap of Rohan. The Dunlendings took advantage of the situation to join with the invaders and in this way took control of Rohan, installing their own king at Edoras. King Wulf's reign was short; he was surprised in Meduseld the following spring by Fréaláf, nephew of the late Helm Hammerhand, and slain.
2758 was an exceptionally bad year all around. Besides the invasions (including an Easterling invasion of Rohan as well), the Long Winter from November of 2758 to March of 2759 covered almost the entire North with a blanket of snow and bitter cold resulting in much suffering and starvation as fuel and stores ran out.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 7 2016, 1:48pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 7 2016, 2:27pm
Post #15 of 78
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It might not be attackers who need ports...
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It depends on what your ships are like, of course. As I understand it, Vking longships, or Ancient Greek triremes were manoeuvrable right up to the coast - you could put in pretty much anywhere almost as if you were an amphibious attack vessel.
Early British ports sprung up partly because of commerce - traders need a predictable place to meet buyers and sellers, warehouses, facilities for sailors and ships after what might have been a long voyage, and facilities for trading partners connecting the port to markets inland. All that works better and better as you scale up, and that factor, plus the supply of ready money, tends to generate a town. Another factor (as I understand it) was the need for a defensive naval force - interceptors who could be quickly dispatched to deal with incoming raiders or pirates. So that meant bases to keep ships, garrison sailors and keep a command and control system to manage the intercepts.
Tangentally, and largely because of the language involved, here's what townships of the five 'Cinque Ports' could get in return for providing kent and Sussex with a naval screen:
A Royal Charter of 1155 established the ports to maintain ships ready for the Crown in case of need. The chief obligation laid upon the ports, as a corporate duty, was to provide 57 ships for 15 days' service to the king annually, each port fulfilling a proportion of the whole duty.[8] In return the towns received the following privileges:
"Exemption from tax and tallage, right of soc and sac, tol and team, blodwit (the right to punish shedders of blood) and fledwit (the right to punish those who were seized in an attempt to escape from justice), pillory and tumbril, infangentheof and outfangentheof, mundbryce (the breaking into or violation of a man's mund or property in order to erect banks or dikes as a defence against the sea), waifs and strays, flotsam and jetsam and ligan" That is to say: Exemption from tax and tolls; self-government; permission to levy tolls, punish those who shed blood or flee justice, punish minor offences, detain and execute criminals both inside and outside the port's jurisdiction, and punish breaches of the peace; and possession of lost goods that remain unclaimed after a year, goods thrown overboard, and floating wreckage. https://en.wikipedia.org/...uties_and_privileges
Later of course ships got big, and so needed more port facilities. In Real Life, ships got big partly because a bigger warship could mount larger cannon. I'm not sure what would drive the Numeneoreans towards huge ships - it's probably just that everything Numenroean is spectacularly large?
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 7 2016, 2:59pm
Post #16 of 78
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I might reverse the question
Yes, Gondor is theoretically vulnerable from the Gap of Rohan, but Rohan has an army, and Saruman does not. What advantage does Gondor gain by having Saruman in Isengard that's better than having Rohan manage it?
Does Gondor have any disadvantage by having a powerful wizard such as Saruman the Wise inhabit Isengard? Beren knows that the armies of Rohan (protecting the Gap) have been depleted during the Long Winter. Allowing Saruman to man Isengard seems a wise move – at this time. Who knows the power of the White Wizard? Well, we do find out, but later.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Dec 7 2016, 3:32pm
Post #17 of 78
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It might not be attackers who need ports...
It depends on what your ships are like, of course. As I understand it, Vking longships, or Ancient Greek triremes were manoeuvrable right up to the coast - you could put in pretty much anywhere almost as if you were an amphibious attack vessel.
Okay, but I never suggested that the Umbar/Harad fleet needed any port in order to land their forces. In fact, I'm sure that they would have carried landing boats if their vessels couldn't simply be beached.
I was riffing off of the earlier discussion about Gondor (and Arnor for that matter) not maintaining much of a coastal presence north of the Bay of Belfalas. C. Tolkien's maps show nothing beyond the ruins of the harbor of Lond Daer (previously known as Vinyalondë) at the mouth of the River Gwathlo (Greyflood). North of that there is nothing until we reach the Gulf of Lune with the harbors of Forlond and Harlond and the Grey Havens.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Dec 7 2016, 3:45pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 7 2016, 6:01pm
Post #18 of 78
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that Saruman will raise his own local forces to garrison and protect Isengard, and he eventually does, so in that sense, he does take the military burden off both Gondor & Rohan. And further, he did mount a good fiery defense of Orthanc when the Ents attacked, and if they hadn't flooded the place (and who thinks of such things?), maybe his one-wizard show would be enough to hold off a more conventional enemy of human warriors. Certainly he could have withstood any siege in impenetrable Orthanc and possibly forced an invader to leave behind a big garrison, which would diminish their units available for invading Rohan.
But I guess the logical question is: where did Saruman's warriors come from: Dunland or Rohan? But logic usually breaks down when we try to use it too heavily in ME. Maybe they came from Bree or Angmar or the Sea of Rhun--who knows?!?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 7 2016, 6:21pm
Post #19 of 78
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Saurman can be very persuasive.
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Beren's lucky he got away without losing his pants, eye-teeth, and first-born.
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 7 2016, 9:06pm
Post #20 of 78
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When did Saruman lose his raison d'etre?
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Beren's lucky he got away without losing his pants, eye-teeth, and first-born.
The Valar in their great wisdom detected nothing untoward when Saruman was sent to Middle-earth as greatest of the order of Istari. Was their thinking flawed? And did he turn to the dark side before or after occupying Isengard?
I think at first he likely was a true friend to Rohan and Gondor, but was slowly corrupted by his own greed for power, for The Ring, and by the use of the Orthanc Stone.
[after occupation of Isengard]
In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. But Frealaf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was one in truth.
(my bold)
And let's send out a squad of TORnsibs to find Beren's pants. 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Darkstone
Immortal
Dec 7 2016, 9:45pm
Post #21 of 78
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Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
-Unfinished Tales, The Istari
Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and desired neither fear nor reverence.
-Unfinished Tales, Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
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InTheChair
Rohan
Dec 7 2016, 10:23pm
Post #22 of 78
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And orcs,,, when did they show up there? And from where?
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What was Beren thinking? How does it make sense to have Saruman sited at such a great distance? What is his purpose?
Orthanc, and Isengard was not yielded to Rohan, but was kept by Gondor. If Beren was unwilling to change that, the Rohirrim would have kept away from there I believe. So someone else must be placed there to keep watch over the tower. I suppose he could have sent one of his loyal noblemen, but at the time Saruman seemed like a friend, and no doubt had provided much help similar to what Gandalf would do later on.
Those men that Saruman gathered to him would have come from different corners of the world, Bree, Adorn, Dunland, Rohan (Grima), Gondor*, and more, he travelled a lot, but they would not have been very many, not until he much later made his alliegiance with the Dunlendings for the conquest of Rohan.
The stone. I reason that Saruman had figured it out, unless he was even told so. Beren who had access to the Minas Tirith stone would have known certainly.
*(And I suppose anyone who remained of the old hereditary guard of Isengard.)
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 7 2016, 10:23pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 7 2016, 10:27pm
Post #23 of 78
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So the Valar were pretty wise after all...
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... by getting rid of Curumo from making mischief in Valinor and sending him "as a special emissary" to their version of Siberia.
And Olórin of course didn't want to get stuck with that bad apple as his boss for thousands of years, either.
It's starting to make sense now!
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 7 2016, 10:37pm
Post #24 of 78
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Bracegirdle's quote supports this 'implication':
... for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower I hadn't really noticed the "lieutenant" and "warden" distinctions, but to me this means that as lieutenant, Saruman was expressly charged with a military responsibility.
It doesn't seem too out-of-context to assume that Gondor in some way provided forces, or at least coordinated with Saruman in how he would execute his military role. A wizard in a tower is really cool and all, but I'd imagine Gondor would want some manpower alongside. And since Saruman isn't mentioned as having a traveling retinue or guard, I'd think at least early-Isengard-Saruman (who played nice, whether by design or by true nature), would procure forces that Gondor approved.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 7 2016, 11:21pm
Post #25 of 78
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I don't recall Saruman been mentioned in the Hobbit, either
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He is first mentioned I think briefly in the Shadow of the Past when Gandalf says to Frodo about the Ring that maybe he should have consulted Saruman about his suspicions, but something held him back!
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