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** The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen ** 2) Well, it was good while it lasted...
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enanito
Rohan

Dec 1 2016, 3:43pm

Post #1 of 48 (3632 views)
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** The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen ** 2) Well, it was good while it lasted... Can't Post

I’ve got a lot of empathy for Arwen, similar to what I feel for Túrin Turambar – good people constrained to a sad fate, really through no fault of their own. I can imagine Arwen in her self-pity: “This is really fair, just because I happen to fall in love with a man, I’m cursed to lose everything I love, whereas the rest of the Elves get to happily return to the Blessed Realm?” But the ways of Higher Powers are quite inscrutable, and we’re simply left with her tragic ending at the end of the tale.

And of course it works out pretty sweet for Aragorn, so he’s not complaining. Life definitely isn’t equal for everyone!

A) The CHOICE

"I will cleave to you, Dúnadan, and turn from the Twilight”
Let’s continue the discussion from the previous thread about Arwen’s “Choice”.

How much does Aragorn truly understand about the nature of Arwen’s Choice?

As she contemplates her destiny, she is “as still as a white tree, looking into the West”. Any deeper significance to this than just a pretty mental image?

B) Love at first sight

We’re not told of any further meetings between A&A beyond their initial encounter, besides their farewell when Aragorn leaves Rivendell. Yet Arwen’s heart is troubled during her time in Lórien. And when first she sees Aragorn again, there in Caras Galadhon, she immediately makes her choice and seals her doom.

Even with the backstory we’re reading about here in the Appendix, does this seem rushed? Or is it epically awesome in the way Beren and Lúthien’s tale was?

C) Galadriel, matchmaker?

Is it by chance that Galadriel clothes Aragorn in a kingly manner, so he would appear as an Elf Lord when he first encounters Arwen again? Methinks not!

D) The Proposal

Arwen: “And yet my heart rejoices; for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will destroy it”
Aragorn: “Yet with your hope I will hope”
I hadn’t really noticed before how each of them sees a hope for themselves in the other person (Arwen even uses his name Estel, meaning Hope). That seems to be a better reason to get hitched than simply love at first sight, doesn’t it?

I really like how Aragorn and Arwen get engaged on Cerin Amroth. Does this seem overly sentimental to anyone? Or maybe too much of a trope?

E) Big Brother is watching

Arwen is said to watch over Aragorn in thought as he journeyed afar. During our read-thru when we’ve encountered a bit of “how did so-and-so know that?”, at times we’ve ascribed it as possibly this kind of telepathic communication.

Is Arwen only able to look in on Aragorn, as through telepathic perception? Or can she telepathically communicate with him? And can he communicate back?

Other examples of when people use this “telepathy”?

F) Why is Arwen “punished”?

“Yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost”

Why does Arwen have to pay such a great price for her choice? In the previous thread it was suggested that this might be the bookend to Lúthien’s happiness. Was it inevitable that it would work out this way, or can we conceive of a way she could avoid such complete and total loss prior to her death?

G) Is Aragorn selfish in death?

Why does Aragorn get to choose to die? Arwen perceives Aragorn’s intent when he speaks to her, and she wishes him to remain until his natural ‘time’. We know he says this grace was given him, but in Tolkien's writings, is this a singular occurrence or is there a kind of precedence?

Is Aragorn’s choice selfish? Arwen sure wants him to stay. Is he really being merciful so she can have a memory of him still with a bit of vigor? Would Arwen have really been better off if he had died naturally?

H) Does Arwen still have a choice?

During the read-thru we discussed whether Arwen truly still had a choice to leave M.E.

Any further thoughts on this, whether her statement of “no ship that would bear me hence” means all the ships are gone, or that any ship still remaining wouldn’t allow her on board?

Would might happen if she built her own ship a la Legolas and tried sailing West?

I) Would Arwen have followed Ar-Pharazôn?!

Did all the Elves regard men as wicked fools? Or did they just ascribe that to the people of Númenor?

And with Arwen expressing pity for the people of Númenor as she now understands what they felt, does anyone think she might have been tempted to join up with Ar-Pharazôn in fighting the unfairness of the Valar?

J) Why can’t Arwen die at same time as Aragorn?

Maybe I’ve missed something really basic. But I cannot understand why they can’t just lay down together and die at the same time?

K) Is Arwen selfish in death?

The author of the Appendix stated that “it was not her [Arwen] lot to die until all that she had gained was lost”

It sure seems like she hadn’t lost everything yet, since she says goodbye to her son, daughters, and all she has loved, before traveling to Cerin Amroth to die.

To me this seems a bit dramatic – if I had kids and grandkids, I’d think they’d still bring me joy even with the pain I’d feel for what I had lost. Thoughts?

L) Belief in the afterlife?

Aragorn sure seems to have hope for their love to somehow continue in the afterlife. He sees death as the Final Test, a continuation of their choice to renounce Shadow, Twilight, the Ring, and Despair.

Arwen doesn’t seem to, ahem, quite share the same outlook. She cries out "Estel, Estel" as her parting words to Aragorn as he dies, as if the Hope she once had is now forever gone. Why such negativity?

Any further thoughts on what Arwen’s end-game might be? Eternal separation from elfish ancestors because of her sharing the Doom of Men? Or in the expanded writings of Tolkien, do we have any reason to hope she might re-encounter them someday?

Any parting thoughts on this Tale?

I always really like this part of the Appendix, getting another tale akin to Beren and Lúthien, and seeing the "non-Hobbit" side of things.

Thoughts on how well this fits into the rest of Tolkien's writings? Anything you wish was touched on more deeply in the tale, or aspects you find unnecessary?

As always, thanks for your posts, they always help me get a better understanding of both the breadth and depth of Tolkien's world!


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 1 2016, 5:11pm

Post #2 of 48 (3523 views)
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This telling goes out of its way to make Arwen a tragic figure [In reply to] Can't Post

It all sounds like its epic verging on the hagiographic to me.

(As per a post in the last thread) I'm finding it helpful to think that Tolkien is giving us the tale as it would be written by Barahir, and that includes emphasising the self-sacrificing and tragic bits for Arwen. I was speculating that these aspects are important in a Gondorian take on the story because Arwen has perhaps become seen as the mother of the nation, who gave her all to refound the royal line. The pelican who rips her breast for her young and so on. Or, if those details are wrong, it's still the way in which Arwen and Aragorn are seen in Barahir's time that dictates how this is told.

It makes more sense of Arwen and Aragorn's farewell. Aragorn comes across as rather stuffy and even a bit cruel - I'm inclined to wonder why, since he's still in apparently good health, and deciding to die he can't spare a little longer to say how much he's loved her, how it has been a privilege to spend their lives together and so on. It also comes across as if his decision to die today is a surprise to her, though clearly some preparation has gone on - there's a bed and everything! He seems to retreat into the sort of formal language with which he was trying to rebuff Eowyn's advances at Dunharrow. It's far from the kind informal ease he has with his hobbit friends in the main text, or with Eomer. Aragorn and Arwen have been married for over a century at this point - even if he was the kind of man who was nervous around women and used to hide that with courtliness to begin with, you'd expect him to feel more at ease with this woman now. The wording makes more sense to me reading this as a history that is already heading into legend.

As I understand it, Aragorn basically wills himself to death. I think the point within this telling is that he's not afraid to die - it's about this faith in contrast to the besetting Numenorean sin of clinging onto life at too great a cost. Arwen's anguish about his decision to die now highlights this faith aspect, obviously. But isn't Aragorn's choice pretty close to a sort of suicide, and so perhaps an odd ending for devoutly Catholic Tolkien to choose for one of his heroes?
I wonder - is that maybe why Arwen doesn't pull up another bed and join him? Firstly Barahir wouldn't tell it like that (if the reasons I've argued are correct, it misses on the important anguish aspect), and secondly perhaps it would be getting a bit too much like a suicide pact?

It also makes more sense of Arwen's apparent confusion that it really has come to doing what they said they would do all along. That doesn't entirely work for me - I think Arwen comes across as a bit silly or inconstant, which doesn't sit with my reading of her.

And it makes more sense of her own death, which is evocatively written but a bit bizarre: dying alone after that dream-like time in a deserted Lorien.


“Yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost”
Never have understood that bit.
It strikes me that it's not clear whether this is simply a statement of how things worked out, or whether it implies some sort of doom in a more curse-like way. Besides, it's not clear to me how the statement is true - her children (including several daughters Too Awesome To Have Names*) and the restored kingdom of Gondor/Arnor are not lost, surely? And maybe Barahir's Aragorn would have a short lecture for her on how she has gained the 'Gift of Eru'?

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 1 2016, 7:17pm

Post #3 of 48 (3515 views)
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Mostly about Love I reckon. [In reply to] Can't Post

just because I happen to fall in love with a man, I’m cursed to lose everything I love, whereas the rest of the Elves get to happily return to the Blessed Realm?” But the ways of Higher Powers are quite inscrutable, and we’re simply left with her tragic ending at the end of the tale.

Isn't it rather the opposite? The elves view mortality as a freedom from the bonds of the world. If it were possible for them to come back to see their loved ones now and again, many elves (Assuming they had a choice) might have opted for mortality. The choice of the half-elven appears to be much more about personal issues and relatives. Arwen might wish to choose mortality but she knows that would mean separation from her people and her relatives as long as the world lasts and perhaps more. She also knows she would rob her offspring of the choice. Then again she also know that if she chooses immortality that means separation from her love until the world ends, and perhaps longer. So in the end it must be love that determines the choice.


Even with the backstory we’re reading about here in the Appendix, does this seem rushed? Or is it epically awesome in the way Beren and Lúthien’s tale was?

It might just have meant that her immidiate choice, if choice is the right word, to accept her love for Aragorn, dooms her to having to make the big choice about mortality, sooner or later. Had she fallen in love with someone immortal, the choice would have been a cinch.



“Yet it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost”
Why does Arwen have to pay such a great price for her choice?

Might be nothing more than the nature of her beeing. Even with the choice of mortality her body was still a large part elvish, and I do not know if she would age in the same way that Aragorn did. If she accepted to wait for her natural death she would surely outlive Aragorn and everyone she loved.


J) Why can’t Arwen die at same time as Aragorn?

and

Any further thoughts on this, whether her statement of “no ship that would bear me hence” means all the ships are gone, or that any ship still remaining wouldn’t allow her on board?
Would might happen if she built her own ship a la Legolas and tried sailing West?


At a guess the reason they could not die together was that Arwen still desired more time together in the world. Thus she would at the time have been incabable of self-dying. Not until the grief of loss had struck her and she no longer longed to live in the world could she release herself and follow him.

By similar reasons she could no longer go to Aman. They have a funny rule in Aman, which cannot really be put in words, but it is something on the lines of Death and eternal grief strictly forbidden! You would be allowed to come in search of healing, such as Frodo (and I suppose Arwen giving her place up to him plays a part here to), but if all you longed for again was only to be reunited with one who had died and left the world, then you wold be a felon in paradise. So I believe she is correct. No ship would bear her there ever again. If she tried to go herself (She wouldn't though) she'd most likely have gotten shipwrecked, or possibly caught in one of those islands and fallen asleep while the world lasted. (Worse perhaps than either death or immortality?)

Sam and Gimli, might be special cases, I don't know. I reckon they both go for love of Frodo and Legolas respectively, but if they gained admittance the tales do not tell.



Edit: forgot about this.

To me this seems a bit dramatic – if I had kids and grandkids, I’d think they’d still bring me joy even with the pain I’d feel for what I had lost. Thoughts?

Would have been impractical. This grandchildren would have had children of their own, and then those children would have children. They would have been a constant chain to the world for Arwen, who would likely have outlived them all and suffered the same grief everytime one of them died. A torture.

He bond is her love for Aragorn. Once he left, she would wish to follow him, that is her choce. Not to say she didn't feel for here children, but she would also have faith that as she would follow Aragorn, they would follow her.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Dec 1 2016, 7:32pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 1 2016, 8:48pm

Post #4 of 48 (3501 views)
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Total Drama Gondor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
To me this seems a bit dramatic – if I had kids and grandkids, I’d think they’d still bring me joy even with the pain I’d feel for what I had lost. Thoughts?

Would have been impractical. This grandchildren would have had children of their own, and then those children would have children. They would have been a constant chain to the world for Arwen, who would likely have outlived them all and suffered the same grief everytime one of them died. A torture.

He bond is her love for Aragorn. Once he left, she would wish to follow him, that is her choce. Not to say she didn't feel for here children, but she would also have faith that as she would follow Aragorn, they would follow her.


Would Arwen, though have outlived her children and grandchildren? She made the irrevocable choice to live as a mortal and was likely already showing signs of ageing--perhaps even of advanced age--and her children were of a long-lived line. However, disregarding all that, I think that it is overly dramatic to say that she had lost all that she had gained. That obviously is not literally true. She had lost the great love of her life; I guess that is enough for the tale.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 10:47am

Post #5 of 48 (3475 views)
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If Tolkien had needed to keep publishing fiction to pay the bills, might this have been the next book? [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien of course had a 'day job', Professor at Oxford University. But what if he'd 'turned professional' and had all day to write, but a need to keep the books coming to earn a living?

Just musing...

The Saga of Aragorn and Arwen would be a reasonable scope for a further novel, I would have thought. It could have covered the content we have here, plus Aragorn's various journeys and adventures, before and after what already is told in LOTR.

Eorl would be another possibility perhaps- reasonably contained story with strong characters, as opposed to the Great Sweeps Of History/Mythology we've had in the earlier appendices.

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 12:46pm

Post #6 of 48 (3467 views)
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I would especially like to read more about Aragorn incognito in Rohan and Gondor. [In reply to] Can't Post

His attack on Umbar sounds exciting, but is so briefly covered. There could be lots more to tell about that time in his life.


squire
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 1:03pm

Post #7 of 48 (3474 views)
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The next book would have been The Silmarillion, not a 'mere thriller'. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course he was not a professional fantasy writer, but he was very committed to extending and publishing his Middle-earth legendarium. Then there is the small matter of standards - his. He never finished his eternal work-in-progress, from which The Lord of the Rings was essentially a highly-enriched spin-off. It seems to me quite uncharacteristic for Tolkien, even with all the time in the world, to have moved on to a spin-off of the spin-off rather than return (as he did) to the original masterpiece of his heart.

That said, he did fall prey to the temptation just once: consider his fragmentary 'sequel' to LotR ("A New Shadow") which is extremely disappointing as he was the first to realize. But since he did at one point consider doing his Fantasy Author Duty and started the 'next book', we should note that he showed no interest at all in picking up Aragorn's backstory, or that of Rohan. I get the feeling they were in the appendices for a reason - they are from the background, not foreground, of his literary imagination.

I am struck by the incongruous idea of Tolkien generating a new 'reasonably contained story with strong characters'. It sounds like something a hungry movie producer would ask for, or a petulant fan, not something Tolkien himself was particularly interested in doing in his latter years. Look instead to the large number of already-begun such stories in the Sil cycle that he began to rewrite, in 'LotR style', in the 1950s (see Children of Hurin, and Tuor Goes to Gondolin, for instance). Another favorite of mine is "The Mariner's Wife", which comes out of nowhere, gives us our only glance at the entire Second Age, and quickly disappears, unfinished as usual, back into the file boxes in the garage.



squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 2:18pm

Post #8 of 48 (3477 views)
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Quite right - I probably ought to deny having 'entitlement issues' here :) [In reply to] Can't Post

'Entitlement issues'? Best explained as follows

Neil Gaiman was once asked this:


Quote
When writing a series of books, like [George RR] Martin is with "A Song of Ice and Fire" what responsibility does he have to finish the story? Is it unrealistic to think that by not writing the next chapter Martin is letting me down, even though if and when the book gets written is completely up to him?

[question to Neil Gaiman from 'Gareth']


Neil Gaiman answered, entirely rightly, I think:


Quote
Yes, it's unrealistic of you to think George is "letting you down".

Look, this may not be palatable, Gareth, and I keep trying to come up with a better way to put it, but the simplicity of things, at least from my perspective is this:

George R.R. Martin is not your bitch.

This is a useful thing to know, perhaps a useful thing to point out when you find yourself thinking that possibly George is, indeed, your bitch, and should be out there typing what you want to read right now.

People are not machines. Writers and artists aren't machines.

You're complaining about George doing other things than writing the books you want to read as if your buying the first book in the series was a contract with him: that you would pay over your ten dollars, and George for his part would spend every waking hour until the series was done, writing the rest of the books for you.

No such contract existed. You were paying your ten dollars for the book you were reading, and I assume that you enjoyed it because you want to know what happens next.

It seems to me that the biggest problem with series books is that either readers complain that the books used to be good but that somewhere in the effort to get out a book every year the quality has fallen off, or they complain that the books, although maintaining quality, aren't coming out on time.

Both of these things make me glad that I am not currently writing a series, and make me even gladder that the decade that I did write series things, in Sandman, I was young, driven, a borderline workaholic, and very fortunate. (and even then, towards the end, I was taking five weeks to write a monthly comic, with all the knock-on problems in deadlines that you would expect from that).

For me, I would rather read a good book, from a contented author. I don't really care what it takes to produce that.

Some writers need a while to charge their batteries, and then write their books very rapidly. Some writers write a page or so every day, rain or shine. Some writers run out of steam, and need to do whatever it is they happen to do until they're ready to write again. Sometimes writers haven't quite got the next book in a series ready in their heads, but they have something else all ready instead, so they write the thing that's ready to go, prompting cries of outrage from people who want to know why the author could possibly write Book X while the fans were waiting for Book Y.

I remember hearing an upset comics editor telling a roomful of other editors about a comics artist who had taken a few weeks off to paint his house. The editor pointed out, repeatedly, that for the money the artist would have been paid for those weeks' work he could easily have afforded to hire someone to paint his house, and made money too. And I thought, but did not say, “But what if he wanted to paint his house?”

Neil Gaiman's online Journal
http://journal.neilgaiman.com/...itlement-issues.html


Quite right.

The putative or alternative-universe full-time writer Tolkien would absolutely have to be a different person in the important respects you mention. One could certainly argue that Tolkien the writer who could produce at the rate of Sir Terry Pratchett or Philip K Dick (both very fine authors in my opinion) would inevitably write differently. So the thought-experiment is perhaps just too ridiculous to contemplate.

And yet... yes, Mariner's Wife is great material, and no 'mere thriller'.... (by which I think Tolkien means he wanted to write fiction with deep themes, rather than a light work focused on delivering fantasy genre set-pieces as efficiently as possible).

But now you must forgive me - I need to work on my multi-volume blockbuster about a group of Tolkien fans who, equipped with a time machine and some form of compulsion gadget [details TBA] travel back in time to get Tolkien to write the book they would have preferred to the unfinished Silmarillion. They are, of course, opposed by another group of fans, who want nothing changed. The two groups fight it out, and I think they accidentally start the First World War. During the confusion, CS Lewis gets locked in a wardrobe with a stuffed lion. There should be some pretty Somerville undergraduates, a car chase, and somebody being shoved into a volcano (always works).....Evil

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


enanito
Rohan

Dec 2 2016, 6:27pm

Post #9 of 48 (3454 views)
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Tolkien's post-LOTR writing "focus" [In reply to] Can't Post

Let's pretend I'm somebody who doesn't have a handle on Tolkien's approach to his writing post-LOTR (ok, we don't have to pretend much, as that exactly describes me!).

At a macro-level, how would one describe Tolkien's writing interests? Were there any distinct periods of years where one could state he was focused on a certain aspect of his writings? Or can they be generalized at all?

I'm thinking along the lines of somehow getting a 'feel' for where his writing interests lie, again at a very high-level explanation. Was he fleshing out details of 'side stories'? Was he further developing linguistic details? Was he spending lots of time synchronizing the various tales he had written? Or was he just all over everywhere doing bits and pieces, stopping and starting?


enanito
Rohan

Dec 2 2016, 6:39pm

Post #10 of 48 (3451 views)
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No glimpse of Aragorn's hope in Arwen's death [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still struck by the complete bleakness of Arwen's death. Even if in life she was 'doomed' (fated/destined/constrained) to suffer such great loss, and if she was 'cold and grey' when she laid herself down, I'd think Barahir the author would want to point out how there was Hope for her to be reunited with her King -- the hope that " we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory".

Maybe not in Arwen's own words, but as an authorial addition regarding the hope that the King and Queen might once again be together, if not now then at some future time.


squire
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 7:08pm

Post #11 of 48 (3451 views)
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I would go see that movie in an instant. Get cracking on that blockbuster. [In reply to] Can't Post

But cut the volcano bit. Too unbelievable.

And thanks very much for the Gaiman piece, that's quite a treat.

I think we're actually pretty lucky that so few fans see Tolkien as a 'series writer' (despite the best efforts of certain film producers).



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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hanne
Lorien

Dec 2 2016, 7:16pm

Post #12 of 48 (3445 views)
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That baffles me too [In reply to] Can't Post

Arwen's unhappiness undermines the moral of Aragorn's embrace of the Gift of Men. Does she not understand death as a gift, the way Aragorn does and the way that the Numenor and Luthien stories present as the ideal? Maybe this is all just expressing the author's own ambivalence about the Gift concept - very natural and human.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 9:44pm

Post #13 of 48 (3426 views)
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It seems we all agree that Arwen was cursed [In reply to] Can't Post

or at least got a very raw deal, as if she were being punished, and none of us can detect any reason for that punishment.

I do wonder if Hanne has it right, and Tolkien's personal human doubts about death interfered with his Arda-theology that mortal death was the Gift of Eru, and he was playing out both sides: Aragorn gets the real Eru-gift of having control over his time of expiration, going out healthy and surrounded by family and friends, and feeling quite content with himself. Arwen has the opposite experience.

Fridge-logic aside, I'm not sure even Arda-logic explains Arwen dying alone and hopeless. She hadn't alienated anyone or done anything wrong--why wouldn't her children come after her? Loyalty is such a strong theme in Arda, I can see that they wouldn't drag her home, but just as Beleg followed Turin everywhere, and Sam followed Frodo, etc, wouldn't at least one of her daughters follow her everywhere? Think of Nienor and Morwen in the Turin story, how Nienor follows Morwen out of Doriath even though she thinks she's too headstrong and headed for danger. That ought to replay itself here. So baffling that it doesn't.

Maybe Tolkien is trying to make a point about Arwen that none of us are getting. I just don't see her making any mistake or committing any sin to be "punished" in death while Aragorn is so regally rewarded. Unless there is no specific goal by Tolkien, and maybe he thought that Arwen was like Frodo: sometimes things just don't work out wonderfully for you even though you're a good person and do your best.


enanito
Rohan

Dec 2 2016, 10:01pm

Post #14 of 48 (3419 views)
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Choice in Eru's grand plan [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we can find ways that many characters could exercise free will and still have Eru's plan work smoothly.

Saruman, for example, could have been more evil or more good, and Sauron could still have been vanquished. I don't think he had to be "pre-destined" to turn into Mr. Bad Guy.

Frodo being an unworthy choice and succumbing to the Ring's power earlier? Eru could have found another way - so even if it was "meant to be", there could be yet another path that was "meant to be" if Frodo chose differently.

But Arwen? Her role seems pretty fundamental and difficult to recast. If she chose to reject her true love and remain an Elf, how could the whole 4th Age-of-Men renaissance occur? No bookend to Beren and Lúthien's tale? Would Aragorn assert his "I saw her first" rights and steal Eowyn from Faramir? Does Galadriel have any other grand-daughters we haven't met yet?

So yeah, I am inclined to think along the lines of sometimes good people just have rotten luck. If we're Believers then we might convince ourselves that there will be a commensurate reward on the other side. But if not, we just have to content ourselves with having tried our best. Unlucky Arwen.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 10:20pm

Post #15 of 48 (3418 views)
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Cursed, or maybe I'll go back to Wiz's "sacrificial mother" idea [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a strong current in myths and legends that great rewards usually come with the sacrifice of someone innocent along the way. Was Arwen serving that role?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 10:38pm

Post #16 of 48 (3410 views)
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And other answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Now that I can catch up to your original post:

A) The CHOICE
How much does Aragorn truly understand about the nature of Arwen’s Choice?

From his deathbed urging to her to go find a ship to Valinor, I don't think he ever fully understood her choice/doom, which does seem odd for someone growing up in Rivendell, University of Elven Lore. And I never thought about it before, but it does odd that he surprised her with his decision to die. Isn't that something a married couple would discuss first? Or should we interpret it as her being in a state of denial, as if "yeah, there's this mortality thing, but it only happens to other couples, not to me and my hubby"?

C) Galadriel, matchmaker?
Is it by chance that Galadriel clothes Aragorn in a kingly manner, so he would appear as an Elf Lord when he first encounters Arwen again? Methinks not!
This is kind of funny. I see Galadriel as so lofty, figuring out Sauron's mind while shielding her own from him, and plotting and planning for centuries, and yet here she plays matchmaker for her granddaughter. Cute!


E) Big Brother is watching
Arwen is said to watch over Aragorn in thought as he journeyed afar. During our read-thru when we’ve encountered a bit of “how did so-and-so know that?”, at times we’ve ascribed it as possibly this kind of telepathic communication.
Is Arwen only able to look in on Aragorn, as through telepathic perception? Or can she telepathically communicate with him? And can he communicate back?

Hmmm. So why did they seem to understand each other so poorly on his deathbed? I'm not sure the telepathy was in full swing with these two.

G) Is Aragorn selfish in death? and H) Does Arwen still have a choice?
I never thought so before, but after this week's discussion, I'm thinking he does seem selfish.
As for her choice, I think it was sealed at least when they were officially married, if not before, and is now totally irrevocable. Had she taken a ship, she's sail around the world but never find the Straight Road into heaven/Valinor.

J) Why can’t Arwen die at same time as Aragorn?
Maybe I’ve missed something really basic. But I cannot understand why they can’t just lay down together and die at the same time?

I never thought of that either, and agree with your reasoning, except I appreciate Wiz's point that this would then be like a suicide pact. But still, there would be something romantic about them dying together, which Beren & Luthien apparently did somehow, so there is a precedent. And they're not jumping off a cliff, they're just flipping some internal switch available to Dunedain rulers to turn their bodies off.

Final point: was Arwen meant to grow up from sheltered Elven princess to worldly woman by this whole experience? She reveals her uncharitable thoughts about mortal men: "As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last." Was she too proud and meant to be humbled by this travail, the way Tolkien's proud characters usually are?




enanito
Rohan

Dec 2 2016, 11:00pm

Post #17 of 48 (3407 views)
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Typically clueless like all men [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn: "What, you didn't know that I was planning on doing this? I'm sure I must have told you at some point."
Arwen: unprintable
Aragorn: "Isn't this what we agreed on 150 years ago?"
Arwen: censored
Aragorn: "And I don't quite understand why you're so upset about it..."
Arwen: more censored, but beautiful sounding like all Elvish


(This post was edited by enanito on Dec 2 2016, 11:03pm)


squire
Half-elven


Dec 2 2016, 11:15pm

Post #18 of 48 (3431 views)
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I think Tolkien just loved the "Abandoned and/or bereft, Mom lies down in the leaves to die" bit. [In reply to] Can't Post

Miriel mother of Feanor: " 'I would weep, if I were not so weary.' She went then to the gardens of Lórien and lay down to sleep; but though she seemed to sleep, her spirit indeed departed from her body, and passed in silence to the halls of Mandos." - Sil 6

Rian, mother of Tuor: "When no tidings came of her lord she fled into the wild; but she was aided by the Grey-elves of Mithrim, and when her son Tuor was born they fostered him. Then Rían departed from Hithlum, and going to the Haudh-en-Ndengin she laid herself down upon it and died." - Sil 21 (as also told in the Tuor and Turin stories in UT)

Morwen, mother of Turin: "But Húrin did not answer, and they sat beside the stone, and did not speak again; and when the sun went down Morwen sighed and clasped his hand, and was still; and Húrin knew that she had died." - Sil 22

Celebrian mother of Arwen: "She was brought back to Imladris, and though healed in body by Elrond, lost all delight in Middle-earth, and the next year went to the Havens and passed over Sea." - LotR App A.I. iii

Finduilas, mother of Boromir and Faramir: "She was a lady of great beauty and gentle heart, but before twelve years had passed she died. ... it seemed to men that she withered in the guarded city, as a flower of the seaward vales set upon a barren rock. The shadow in the east filled her with horror, and she turned her eyes ever south to the sea that she missed". - LotR App. A.I.iv

Gilraen, mother of Aragorn: " 'This is our last parting, Estel, my son. I am aged by care, even as one of lesser Men; and now that it draws near I cannot face the darkness of our time that gathers upon Middle-earth. I shall leave it soon.' ... Aragorn went away heavy of heart. Gilraen died before the next spring." - LotR App.A.I.v

Arwen: "[She] passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. ... There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth" - LotR App A.I.v.

Must... resist... connecting all this to Mabel Tolkien:

"[After her conversion to Catholicism] the wrath of the family fell upon them. ... The strain that this induced, coupled with the additional financial hardship, did no good to her health. [A few years later] At the beginning of November she collapsed in a way that seemed to them sudden and terrifying. She sank into a diabetic coma, and six days later...she died. 'My own dear mother was a martyr indeed...who killed herself with labour and trouble to ensure us keeping the faith', Tolkien wrote nine years after his mother's death." - Carpenter, J.R.R. Tolkien, chs. 2-3.



squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 3 2016, 10:23am

Post #19 of 48 (3365 views)
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Definitely a pattern. Was Tolkien conscious of it, do you think? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder whether Tolkien knew he was repeating this (and perhaps doing so for a reason he'd be able to explain). Or was it something he kept returning to non-deliberately - for example, because he found it affecting and effective?

Glad you added Mabel: that thought was definitely occurring to me too as I read the list of Martyr-Moms.

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


InTheChair
Rohan

Dec 3 2016, 1:56pm

Post #20 of 48 (3340 views)
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For an elf the nature of Man would be even more hard to fully understand. [In reply to] Can't Post

Arwen's unhappiness undermines the moral of Aragorn's embrace of the Gift of Men. Does she not understand death as a gift, the way Aragorn does and the way that the Numenor and Luthien stories present as the ideal?


Aragorn death death is a gift (if a gift) to Aragorn, not to Arwen. Her choice allows her the same, but the loss and sadness that comes with it cannot be avoided, and pehaps should not.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Dec 3 2016, 4:05pm

Post #21 of 48 (3334 views)
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Celebrian [In reply to] Can't Post

Celebrian is a bit different from the others, though. She never died, but became separated from her loved ones when she took ship into the West. She would at least be reunited eventually with Elrond. I wonder if she and Elrond might be able to briefly reunite with their mortal children in the Halls of Mandos before their spirits move on to whatever awaits.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


squire
Half-elven


Dec 3 2016, 6:23pm

Post #22 of 48 (3326 views)
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No doubt. They're all a bit different. [In reply to] Can't Post

And as this discussion has been tossing around, we don't actually know if mortals aren't also "reunited eventually", in Aragorn's phrase "beyond the circles of the world." If so, then Celebrian, being Elvish, just took the Elvish shortcut.

So I think even the Elvish women fit this broad but odd pattern pretty well. After all, Feanor's Mom doesn't exactly die, either. But both she and Celebrian do their best Elvish imitation of all those mortal Moms, going into terminal depression and ending it all by simply refusing to live any longer. Arwen is heir to a long and sorry tradition.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 3 2016, 7:17pm

Post #23 of 48 (3310 views)
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If the elves told this tale, what would it be like? [In reply to] Can't Post

‘the Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness’, said Tolkien. Would Arwen's end be exciting, if a bit transgressive, to the elven audience of an elven storyteller?

This isn't a new thought, of course - for example Tom Shippey:


Quote
"What Tolkien wanted to concentrate on, obviously, was death: more precisely perhaps on why people love this world and want so strongly to stay in it when it is an inescapable part of their nature ‘to die and go we know not where’. His imagination centred again on a kind of calque, a diagrammatic reversal. Since we die, he invented a race which did not. Since our ‘fairy-stories’ are full of the escape from death (as he remarked near the end of ‘On Fairy-Stories’, Tree p. 68), ‘the Human-stories of the elves are doubtless full of the Escape from Deathlessness’. Certainly one was, his own tale of Beren and Lúthien as embodied in his ‘Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage’, in which Lúthien alone of the elves is allowed as a favour to ‘die indeed’ and leave the world like a mortal."

Prof Tom Shippey, Road to Middle Earth Ch7


What do folks think of this idea, 'bookending' Aragorn and Arwen against Beren and Luthien, as earlier suggested by enanito?

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 3 2016, 7:54pm

Post #24 of 48 (3308 views)
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A less bleak reading? [In reply to] Can't Post

The style of the writing here does not always show us the characters - sometimes it just tells us what they do. So we get the potent shock of immediate bereavement:


Quote
the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star.


...and then I don't 'see' Arwen at all in the little word count that is left of this telling. I see the woods (written with a beautiful and austere economy), and I'm told what Arwen is doing. My reaction as a reader is immediately to imagine despair: Arwen whose life is now broken, moving like an automaton through the empty woods until she can finally die on the 'Mound Of Our Trothplighting'. It's vivid, but so bleak.

I completely agree with squire's observation - Tolkien seems to have returned repeatedly to this kind of image. But also (just for my own reader's comfort? - I'm not sure) I think about whether other readings are possible.

This telling is in the style of folklore or legend, not in the style of romance or novel. We are asked to project what Arwen thinks and feels and needs,because 'Barahir' does not tell us. And she's an elf, and they are (as Gimli has observed) a strange folk. So we do have some scope for other readings here.

Has Arwen gone to Lorien not as the second most Aragorn-scented place after Minas Tirith, but because it is so very elvish? Is there a period of grieving but also spiritual contemplation before an accepting death, rather than a person undergoing mental collapse and abandoned by (or rebuffing) the help of her family and friends? I'm not sure I see what Tolkien intends here...

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


enanito
Rohan

Dec 3 2016, 8:45pm

Post #25 of 48 (3305 views)
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Why must it have been Arwen that married Aragorn? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm wondering if there's some aspect of Arwen that is more essential than others in the reason why it "had to be her". Obviously we've covered a lot of aspects of Aragorn and Arwen, but what is the most important reason that it's her? Or said differently, is there an aspect of Arwen without which the story would not hold together?

For example, could we have a story (less awesome of course) that had some kind of female Heir of Isildur that Aragorn marries? Someone maybe from amongst Imrahil's kin, who is discovered to not only have elvish blood in her veins, but in whom the lineage of Isildur runs true? Or does Aragorn have to marry an elf to 'bookend' the Beren and Lúthien story?

And could Aragorn marry a different elf (another of Galadriel's grand-daughters)? Or is it paramount that the elf be the Evenstar, in whom is reflected the lost First Age?

Or could Aragorn marry a 'commoner', and have that be an effective way to raise the race of Men up to a level that jumpstarts the 4th Age? Or does Aragorn require somebody 'equal' to his status?

Not advocating any alternative, just wondering if anyone has something in mind that overrides other considerations, in why it might have had to be Arwen?

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