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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 1 2016, 10:06pm
Post #27 of 35
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Just to muddy the waters: Arwen's passport went to Frodo
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Someone in the past cited something from Tolkien, possibly in Letters, saying that Arwen essentially gave her place on the boat ride to heaven to Frodo, and giving him the diamond in Minas Tirith was symbolic of that. So her choice was sealed then and there, if not at other times.
That doesn't resolve anything about the brothers, though.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 1 2016, 10:10pm
Post #28 of 35
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That's actually the backstory of the "half-elven" of Dol Amroth (though they're not called that). Imrahil's family has Elven blood, which Legolas spots, and which proves useful in the Siege of Minas Tirith in countering the sinister, demoralizing effect of the Nazgul flying overhead (temporarily, that is).
The story, maybe in Unfinished Tales, was that a Sindarin Elf woman had a baby with a Man in Amroth, but later left the baby behind and sailed to Valinor while Amroth was still an Elf-haven.
People can argue whether it's "canon" or not, or if JRR was trying to tie up loose ends somehow, but anyway, that's what I can recall about it.
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enanito
Rohan
Dec 1 2016, 10:43pm
Post #29 of 35
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Elvish blood in their veins sounds good...
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... until you pick at the logic a bit and it unravels the whole epic aspect of the 3 unions of Elf and Man (as well as the idea of Elvish unions unilaterally being 'for time and for all eternity'. Except for the Finwë, who of course remarried. Because elvish marriage is forever, except when you're the High King who I guess can change the rules. But I digress).
So while in LOTR it lends a great nobility to Imrahil's kin upon the initial reading, I can understand why Tolkien didn't travel further down the road of trying to explain exactly how that elvish blood got into those human veins!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Dec 1 2016, 10:57pm
Post #30 of 35
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A couple more shovels full of mud . . .
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Letter 154 Tolkien tells us: But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain “mortals’, who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and ‘servant’ of Galadriel.
-my bold
This was Sept. 1954 and seems to imply that Frodo was given a ticket to ride expressly by Arwen. Seems to…
But Letter 246 written in Sept. 1963, footnote:
She could not of course just transfer her ticket . . . What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo . . . and put plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both) . . . No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea.
Is Tolkien contradicting himself nine years later? Maybe not. I have a problem with his use of “supposed” and “legitimately supposed”. Am I misreading Letter 154 (or misinterpreting)?
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 2 2016, 10:36am
Post #31 of 35
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Consistency, Passport Control, soft-hearted wizards (or authors), and 'adumberate'
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I don't see the two quotes as inconsistent, necessarily. I suppose that Arwen's 'gift' to Frodo was to notice Frodo's troubles and then intercede with Gandalf on his behalf, rather than her having the power to transfer her 'ticket' without anyone else's say-so. It's presumably Gandalf, as plenipotentiary of the Valar, who gets to say who is given exceptional 'passports', I expect.
We don't read much about Arwen at all, but I like to imagine she's inherited the persuasiveness of her father and maternal grandmother. Besides, I wonder how much resistance gruff but kind-heated Gandalf would put up: he's being petitioned on behalf of Frodo, who certainly 'took one for the team' by someone else who it could be argued 'took one for the team'. I see Gandalf's overall schemes as being both the destruction of Sauron, and the orderly transition of Middle-earth to having Men (but not Sauron worshippers) as the dominant cultures. So this only works if Arwen marries Aragorn; cost, 1 immortality). Maybe this is where we should look for a rebuttal of Saruman's accusation that Gandalf just drops his tools when they have served his purpose? Instead, I can see him as paying his debts.
Tom Shippey has the accusation that it's Tolkien who gets too kind -hearted (or perhaps soft-hearted) about matters such as these 'exceptions' a he works on his mythology post-LOTR publication:.
One may think that Tolkien was rightly pushing towards a clarification of his ‘mythology’. Yet at the same time he was edging back from his long concern with heroic valour, or hobbitic moral courage. It has been remarked already that he was in minor matters kind-hearted. As The Lord of the Rings came to an end this temptation, too, grew upon him. Bill the pony is saved in The Return of the King. In the ‘Epilogue’ to that work, eventually printed in SD pp. 114–35, we learn that Shadowfax will be saved too, to be taken on the last ship from the Havens to Aman, simply because Gandalf could not bear the parting. This would be a failure of nerve in a work which had sacrificed Lórien, and Tolkien, having written it, wisely decided to leave it out."
Tom Shippey - The Road to Middle-earth, Ch7: Visions and revisions
The argument, I think, boils down to some characters needing to suffer and be seen to suffer to carry the story's themes. (Shippey also questions Tolkien's rethinking, in UT, of Isildur's reaction to the Ring - see http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=716045#716045 for that quote and a discusson of it all.) I see the point (though, after that UT Gladden Fields discussion I'm no longer sure I fully agree about isildur!) - if Shadowfax or Gimli get a Passport because, basically we like them, why not everyone? Why not Aragorn, say?
(My current opinion there is that Aragorn is the one I've posted already in the next thread- Aragorn is needed to die in a conventional way, deliberately, unambiguously and unafraid, to demonstrate that the bad days of Numenroeans kicking back at their divinely-given mortality are over. But let's see if that idea survives this week or whether, as often happens, someone has a better one for me to adopt!)
But I wonder whether this is what Tolkien means with his 'legitimately supposed'? Is he musing about whether his authorial supposition that there can be exceptions is just what he's like to think, or whether it is 'legitimate' (as in 'true to how things work in Arda' - something he seems to need to discover as much as invent sometimes).
Lastly, I found I didn't know Tolkien's word 'adumberate' ("and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo)"). His sense can't be my dictionary's first one ('to indicate by outlining' - as in 'let me thank you for adumberating what we know about The Choice' ). Other senses are 'to foreshadow' or 'to overshadow' . Perhaps Tolkien means both: 'To foreshadow' as in Frodo and Bilbo are a sort of precedent, or advanced indicator that Sam will be allowed on ship; 'to overshadow' in that Sam does spend the tale very much in Frodo's shadow, he seems to like it that way but perhaps the idea is that his contribution has not been overlooked.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Dec 2 2016, 10:38am)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Dec 2 2016, 12:35pm
Post #32 of 35
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just means 'cast a shadow', and I think that's why it can be used in various more-or-less metaphorical ways that the dictionary doesn't capture very well. I've seen it used in the way Tolkien uses it in your quote ("and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo)"), and I'm pretty sure all JRRT means is that Frodo gives a hint, or (sort of) foretells or foresees, that Sam will also cross the Sea. The 'adumbration' happens on the way to the Havens, when Sam realizes that Frodo is leaving, and says "And I can't come." Frodo replies:
“No, Sam. Not yet anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come.”
There's evidence that Sam understood it that way, in the unpublished Epilogue, when Sam tells his daughter Elanor a secret:
...a secret I have never told before to no one, nor put in the Book yet. Before he went Mr. Frodo said that my time maybe would come. I can wait. I think maybe we haven't said farewell for good. But I can wait.
The Epilogue may not be 'canon', as such, but it shows what Frodo's words meant to Sam - he understands what Frodo was hinting at, and knows it's not a certainty, but he gets the 'adumbration', that's for sure!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 2 2016, 9:28pm
Post #34 of 35
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It does seem more poetic that way. //
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Dec 7 2016, 12:10pm
Post #35 of 35
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Galadriel does say *something* but it's pretty obscure
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The other FOTR place a bit more hinting might occur is during the Fellowship's time in Lothlórien. We do get a couple hints that Aragorn has some kind of happy memories of that place, but it's only understood in retrospect upon re-reading.
As Galadriel is Arwen's grandma, it wouldn't seem out-of-place for her to make some kind of reference to what she knows. Not as blatant as "hey Aragorn, haven't seen you since, well, you and my grand-daughter got engaged right here at my place!". But I'd imagine Tolkien could come up with something that would allow Arwen's character to be a bit more developed via some comments between Galadriel and Aragorn, without it requiring a lot of exposition or seeming forced.
Tolkien did come up with something in this scene, but it doesn't do much to develop Arwen's character (except, once you understand the riddle, to show that she is helping Aragaorn from afar). But it does seem to develop Arwen's role as a secret and almost-unspoken hope and inspiration to Aragorn. In the gift-giving scene, Galadriel gives Aragorn the Elfstone saying that comes not directly from her but through her granddaughter:
“This stone I gave to Celebrían my daughter, and she to hers; and now it comes to you as a token of hope.”
And although we (and the hobbits) have pretty much no clue what this means, Aragorn does manage to bring up Arwen's name in his speech of thanks:
“For the gifts that you have given me I thank you,’ he said, ‘O Lady of Lórien of whom were sprung Celebrían and Arwen Evenstar. What praise could I say more?”
(Galadriel gave him a sheath for Andúril as her own gift, and (I think we can deduce) the Elfstone she gave on behalf of, and at the request of, Arwen.)
There's another mention of (an unnamed) Arwen also in the gift-giving scene. When Galadriel first asks him what he would request, he says:
“Lady, you know all my desire, and long held in keeping the only treasure that I seek. Yet it is not yours to give me, even if you would; and only through darkness shall I come to it.”
That also is a reference to Arwen, although we're in no position to know that at the time.
But it does suggest that Tolkien knew what he wanted Arwen's role in the story to be - she's in there, just hidden away in coded messages. It doesn't look to me like he wanted to put her into the story but didn't know how - it looks like he wanted her to be a mystery that only many readings of the story will reveal. We even remarked on this in the scene where Aragorn finds the sapling of the White Tree - everyone is waiting for something, and Aragorn is clearly stressed about finding a 'sign' that it will come true, but only when the Rivendell party arrives do we finally understand about Arwen.
“And Frodo when he saw her come glimmering in the evening, with stars on her brow ... said to Gandalf: ‘At last I understand...!”
I think squire really hit the nail on the head when he calls her the original Easter Egg!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Dec 7 2016, 12:11pm)
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