|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 27 2016, 9:39pm
Post #1 of 14
(3198 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The heirs of Elendil lands, general overview, Lotr read-through
|
Can't Post
|
|
Ok, just one thread concerning the general relationship between Gondor and Arnor. Which was between the two, not a lot. For thousands of years anyway. Which in itself seems a bit strange, maybe some at least of Arnor travellend down to visit their southern cousins, but obviously not enough to remit a mention in the histories. In fact, I am a bit surprised that no effort was made by the Gondor rulers to either take back Arnor or colonize it or at least get it in their sphere of influence. Was it just in respect of their ancient ancestors which stopped this. Or maybe those in Arnor where not that interested in fighting Gondor's imperielistic wars.
The other thing I wonder about is that there is not much mention of Elves or the Wise in these histories. Did they have anything to do with these countries at all? They seemed to have a close relationship with the Arnor dunedain at least once they become cheiftains, but no-one seemed to be that much interested in Gondor. Save perhaps the sons of Elrond towards the end fought in their wars. And of course Aragorn, the only one, but even then under an assumed name until later. Anyway, any other general thoughts about this this would be a good thread to put this in.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 28 2016, 2:40pm
Post #2 of 14
(3135 views)
Shortcut
|
Arnor and Gondor don't seem to help each other very much - maybe it's because they each mostly have their hands full, and from different points of the compass (Arnor is attacked from the North, Gondor from the East and sometimes from the South). It is (as your good summary in the last thread pointed out) some time before they realise that their foes are co-ordinated from a central source, which might be roundabout Mirkwood. And perhaps the two Dunedain kingdoms are by that time too weak to attack Mirkwood and defend their North or East/South borders.
The natural question then is: What about a bigger alliance? A sort of Last Alliance Reunion Tour, or MEATO (Middle-EArth Treaty Organization)? Which is pretty much what you were asking in your second paragraph. Maybe some grand alliance of the free peoples could have cleared out Dol Gildur, and driven the orcs and goblins out of the Misty Mountains. Rivendell sometimes assists Arnor, but Elrond is related to the line of Arnor-ese kings, rather then needing to act only out of long-range geopolitical thinking. By and large though, kingdoms seem to stick to their own business and borders.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 28 2016, 4:05pm
Post #3 of 14
(3129 views)
Shortcut
|
The natural question then is: What about a bigger alliance? A sort of Last Alliance Reunion Tour, or MEATO (Middle-EArth Treaty Organization)? Which is pretty much what you were asking in your second paragraph. Maybe some grand alliance of the free peoples could have cleared out Dol Gildur, and driven the orcs and goblins out of the Misty Mountains. Rivendell sometimes assists Arnor, but Elrond is related to the line of Arnor-ese kings, rather then needing to act only out of long-range geopolitical thinking. By and large though, kingdoms seem to stick to their own business and borders.
Such an alliance does eventually come into play in TA 1975, but too late to aid Arnor (now reduced to just Arthedain).
Arvedui drowned in the Bay of Forochel. The palantíri of Annúminas and Amon Sûl are lost. Eärnur brings a fleet to Lindon. The Witch-king defeated at the Battle of Fornost, and pursued to the Ettenmoors. He vanishes from the North.
What finally brought down Angmar was a great force brought by ship from Gondor and Éothéod led by Eärnur allied with Elves of Lindon and Arnor.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 28 2016, 5:09pm
Post #4 of 14
(3126 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That's true! Back to some unanswered questions
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We didn't, in our earlier discussion, work out why such co-operation had not been possible before, nor why, having defeated Angmar so thoroughly that 'not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.' the Gondorians seem just to go home, leaving the North empty in a strange political vacuum.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 28 2016, 6:13pm
Post #5 of 14
(3123 views)
Shortcut
|
|
'Then so utterly was Angmar defeated...'
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
'...that 'not a man nor an orc of that realm remained west of the Mountains.'
Which perhaps tells us that examples from Real-life history don't work in this more legendary context - how come everyone vanishes?
We've discussed before how defeated enemies in LOTR seem to vanish a bit handily, without any morally distasteful massacre or pogrom needed. But it's odd: Angmar is home to some of these bad guys. So even if the WK had fielded 100% of his army and it had taken 100% casualties, realism would suggest there would be non-combatants about somewhere. And most generals would have reserves, or units needed elsewhere than in the battle (though the WK is an unusual General and perhaps cares nothing for the people of Angmar except as a tool to destroy Arnor).
Imagination rather than text analysis has to fill in the gaps, I suppose. We don't know how soon Earnur leaves the North again (I think). So perhaps there were vigorous pursuits of the Angmar people, or perhaps they were not to wedded to life in Angmar and so abandoned their lands with such a scorched earth policy that the North is still pretty empty when we travel it with Bilbo and Frodo, approximately 1000 years after this great battle. Something catastrophic would have to have happened, given the huge length of recovery needed. It would be like England still being mostly desolate and very underpopulated as a result of the ninth Century wars between the Kings of Wessex and their rivals the 'Danes'.
(Probably best to say that I'm picking this example solely because the conquest of England by Cnut the Great was exactly 1000 years ago this year: I'm not meaning to equate King Cnut or the Norsemen with the WK in any moral sense!)
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 28 2016, 7:08pm
Post #6 of 14
(3109 views)
Shortcut
|
...the borders of Angmar extended to both sides of the Misty Mountains, so the Hill-men might have just retreated to either the mountains or to the eastern side. The Orcs probably gathered at Gundabad and other mountain-lairs to lick their wounds.
Carrying over from the last discussion, I don't think that Gondor was in a good position to colonize Eriador. Gondor's original borders were quite extensive: To the north-west it included all the lands south of the Greyflood up to and including the crossing at Tharbad. At its height, Gondor extended past Umbar to the south and encompassed all of the Sea of Rhûn, with the Haradwaith tributary to it. Subsequent wars and the Great Plague greatly reduced Gondor's borders and its population.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 28 2016, 7:23pm)
|
|
|
enanito
Rohan
Nov 28 2016, 9:13pm
Post #7 of 14
(3081 views)
Shortcut
|
Along the lines of what Squire mentioned, I'm not sure the land of Angmar was anyone's natural homeland, was it? I get the impression (but could be wrong) that the evil folk were mostly imported, mercenaries in that sense, brought in by the WiKi to use at his discretion and pleasure. Sure there were generations that lived there, but it still might not have been 'home'.
If that's the case, it'd make sense that once the 'evil will that was marshaling them' was gone, they'd disperse and return to familiar haunts to continue their evil ways. Angmar never sounded that hospitable anyways...
(This post was edited by enanito on Nov 28 2016, 9:14pm)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 28 2016, 10:21pm
Post #8 of 14
(3060 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That solves my problem then, I think
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If most of the WK's followers were only sticking around because of his pay or other incentives, then once he suddenly goes, they wander off to other ventures. If the land itself is not much of a prize and there are few settlers to prey upon as bandits, then other climes might well seem more tempting. Small numbers deciding to stay, or making small incursions, might be in low enough numbers to be handled by the Rangers, who remain too few to resist a determined invasion.
Why the Arnor-ese don't rebuild their numbers over 1000 years of comparative peace is another question! But not a good one, maybe: we've already discussed that Tolkien makes good artistic use of a wilderness and a secret nobility thanklessly protecting the remaining fragments of civilisation. So to ask why they haven't re-established more civilisation is perhaps to push things too far.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 28 2016, 10:29pm
Post #9 of 14
(3056 views)
Shortcut
|
The Hill-men were native to Rhudaur, south of Angmar. They gained control of the region around the year 1350 and allied themselves with Angmar.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
|
|
|
hanne
Lorien
Nov 28 2016, 10:35pm
Post #10 of 14
(3054 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien Gateway has two very nice maps by a user called Smeagol, which show Gondor at its height
and the much smaller area under Denethor's control in LOTR.
Several places have this map they say is "from Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth" (is it ok to post that here?) which shows how much bigger Gondor was than Arnor. It's interesting that the border is the Greyflood, not the mountains.
Maps of Angmar are harder to find but here's one from the Master of Lore blog (scroll down a lot, it's a long post). It looks further north than anyone but the Snowmen, so the idea that is was inhospitable sounds about right.
(click links for the bigger pics)
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 28 2016, 10:55pm
Post #11 of 14
(3044 views)
Shortcut
|
oh yes you are. and as a Cnutist, I am offended! //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 28 2016, 11:17pm
Post #12 of 14
(3044 views)
Shortcut
|
Once upon a time I took my poster map of Middle-earth and my tokens from the board game Risk and re-enacted the various wars and expansions/collapses of kingdoms. I never could make sense of the abandonment of Arnor: obviously fertile terrain, and it couldn't be drastically different suddenly where the Shire borders stopped, yet it lies empty for centuries. So I wondered too why Gondor invested so much energy expanding East and South when there was that big, empty, safe North it could have colonized.
I think part of the answer why you might have explained, in that when a land is defeated, suddenly all its people disappear. Just what happened to the Arnorese when Angmar overran it? In the real world, yes, you'd have refugees, but you'd also have people who were overrun before they could flee. Some you kill, most you enslave. But when Angmar is defeated, there seem almost no people to liberate in Arnor--were they all slaughtered? Possibly. But what about refugees to relocate? There appear to be none of those either.
Which leads to the desirability of empty real estate--usually conquerors want to conquer an inhabited land because of 1) the booty that they plunder, and 2) the new subjects that they can tax and/or enslave. There's a lot more benefit to conquering a rich seafaring Umbar than colonizing an empty land like Arnor which takes a lot of work and investment and has no quick payoff.
Nevertheless, Gondor could not have administered--in a real-world way--all the lands to the East and South it conquered without exporting some population as garrisons, governors, tax gatherers, etc. So I'm back to thinking if they could find the people to export to hold onto subjugated lands, why not get nostalgic for sending people to resurrect the kingdom of Elendil?
Now factor in 3 wise Elves who understand geopolitics: Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel. Isn't it in their interest to have a kingdom of Arnor of some kind? Gandalf tells the hobbits that one reason he wanted to destroy Smaug and have Dale & Erebor rebuilt was to put an allied kingdom in the way of an Easterling invasion that could destroy Rivendell. Well, why not get those Rangers to have a lot more kids in every generation, sheltered in Lindon and Rivendell, until they reached critical mass to repopulate Arnor?
I know this is all fridge logic, and also that medieval fertility rates are nothing like modern ones. And the story needed an empty Arnor and dispossessed king like Aragorn, so sorry, Arnor, you were just doomed to stay empty by not Sauron, not the Witch-king, but by the author himself! 
|
|
|
InTheChair
Rohan
Nov 30 2016, 10:59pm
Post #13 of 14
(2966 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well, there is that big black country right next to it...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
They seemed to have a close relationship with the Arnor dunedain at least once they become chieftains, but no-one seemed to be that much interested in Gondor. Save perhaps the sons of Elrond towards the end fought in their wars.
It may be of no conseqence but it is worth noting that Gondor is close by the coasts, and as happens with Legolas when the elves get to close to the Sea weird stuff goes down inside of them. They may have stayed away from Gondor on purpose.
Though more than that I would call it down to distances, and closeness to Mordor.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Dec 1 2016, 6:12am)
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Dec 1 2016, 12:13am
Post #14 of 14
(2955 views)
Shortcut
|
That the Gondorians where discouraged. Maybe by some hidden magic of the Elves or possibly by persuiasion. Or perhaps those that showed any kind of expansory actitivy towards Arnor where taken to Galadriel where she did a Harry Potter style memory oblivion trick to them? Or perhaps that would be considered too much like interference in Man's affairs for them.
|
|
|
|
|
