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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 21 2016, 9:13pm
Post #1 of 37
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Admin warning re: political discussion on TORN
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us."
Two months ago, the Mods began seriously discussing the possibility of banning political discussion from the boards. We have gone so far as to actually draft the announcement. We nearly posted it last week. We still may. Before you start complaining about censorship and tyranny, please hear us out.
The site founders have always preferred that politics not be a feature of TORN, and would have no hesitation at all in telling us to go ahead with a ban. But we have always been reluctant to forbid discussion, instead preferring to rely on the goodwill of the community here to respect each other despite our differences. But on this topic, our approach has had limited success at best. Every political thread of substantial length that we can recall has had to be heavily edited, locked, or deleted and we have had to deal with the fallout, sometimes long afterward. Nothing else has caused so many flame wars and so much lasting animosity between members. But despite this, we kept on posting reminders and requests as we always have, hoping that the usual resilient friendship and good humor of TORNsibs would reassert itself.
We have always put a premium on courtesy among members. We don't allow personal attacks, or insults, or discriminatory remarks. We don't support making people feel unwelcome simply because they disagree. We've enjoyed the diversity of our members and welcomed other viewpoints. It's been one of the hallmarks of TORN.
But we feel like that ideal is losing ground.
We see more and more people taking the approach that: "If I'm right and it's important, then civility is optional. If I'm sure of my rightness, I'm entitled to lecture the other person about their wrongness." And the corollary is held true as well; "If they're wrong, they deserve what they get. If I attack this bit of wrongness it will be a blow against all the other wrongness in the world I can't reach." When people fall into this mode of thinking, they come across rude, arrogant or condescending, often without knowing it. And many people who don't like arguing with a mind entirely made up - or just don't like arguing at all - will prefer to be silent, even though insulted or hurt. And because they're not speaking up, it's assumed they're not there. If they're not there, we don't have to worry about what we say about them. And so on. We've repeatedly asked people to consider their words carefully. But lately feelings are running so high that we're often ignored, or accused of partiality (because I'm Right, how dare you defend the Wrong people).
As we have said over and over - it is important to show respect for the person even if you wholly disagree with their position. If you do not, every disagreement ends in either a stated or implied insult and actual communication goes out the window. Nobody ever changed their mind because someone insulted them. They just get defensive and dig in even harder. Have you ever been mocked or belittled or talked down to and then said to yourself "You know, they really have a good point there"? Neither has anyone else.
Recent political events have been so divisive that it is bringing these patterns to the fore - and to TORN. The effects are unlikely to fade anytime soon. In fact, we see them as likely to flare up again as we get closer to the inauguration and therein lies our problem. This is a Tolkien site. While people love to talk OT, is it good for the site to allow an off-topic issue to create such division and such lasting resentment among members? Are we doing our job if we sit and watch political arguments undermine our unique space to talk Tolkien? Shall we let some members be driven away because others are using this place to vent? Can the community here survive long if our forums begin to echo the refrains of social media?
Or - should we make an effort to focus on the purpose of the site and make this the one place you know you won't encounter a political debate? Should we declare ourselves a truly politics-free zone as the site Founders would wish? We suspect that there are many beside ourselves who would find this a relief. There are lots of places to vent, to lecture, to discuss politics. The news is full of it. Much of social media seems devoted to it. But there's only one TORN.
So this is your final warning, and your very last chance, all. There won't be any more discreet edits, or reminders of the TOS, or pleas to think about how your words are coming across. The next political breach of the TOS will be the last. We have so much else in common and so many other things to talk about, we can't afford to let this one drive us apart.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Nov 21 2016, 9:20pm
Post #2 of 37
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I do think that discussions in the Off-Topic forums should have a bit of leeway as some disagreement is inevitable; but courtesy and civility should always be encouraged and, if necessary, enforced. I'll leave it at that for now.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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weathertop
Rohan
Nov 21 2016, 10:44pm
Post #3 of 37
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i don't think those points are limited to political realm
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while the political realm sees it more dramatically, it seems to be a growing trend in many 'debates' around TORn.
While most posting in the debates (be it in science, the beardiness of dwarves or politics) are level headed and understanding/accepting of differing views, there are more than a handful that become defensive and insolent.
This is more concerning to me than the topic of the debate. Maybe putting a hiatus on an easy target (politics) is a way to get through, but I don't think so. Unfortunately, I don't have a stab at a solution to the issue i see and raise.
Enginerd
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Donry
Tol Eressea
Nov 21 2016, 10:46pm
Post #4 of 37
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the tradition of TOR.n.... I am not a U.S. Citizen and I get bombarded with U.S. Politics all over the internet it seems. This has usually been one of those places where I can get away from it all. Whatever 'all' is at the time. TOR.n has my support, if that matter at all!
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"
Twitter - @DonryFetor
FB - https://www.facebook.com/donryfetortheouthouse
Instagram - donryfetor
Blog - donryfetorsouthouse.wordpress.com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Nov 21 2016, 10:52pm
Post #5 of 37
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Back in the Second Age someone got pretty nasty with me
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because I had the audacity to argue in the Arena why I thought Robin Hood was a better archer than Legolas. But I just figured she was probably very young and passionate and I laughed it off.
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GNU Terry Pratchett
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Nov 21 2016, 10:54pm
Post #6 of 37
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I wouldn't mind giving it a rest.
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It's all over facebook, and I indulge in it there, but for me TORn is like my classroom: I'd rather focus on something else.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GNU Terry Pratchett
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 21 2016, 11:02pm
Post #7 of 37
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and you're right, discussion of The Hobbit, for instance, has been extremely contentious due to many of the very same attitudes. The difference is, discussing The Hobbit is part of the mission of the site, and politics is not. We are not ignoring the pattern or thinking that it will go away entirely if we cut out political arguments. We will continue to step in and enforce the TOS as best we can on all occasions, as that is our job. But politics, and the bitterness it has inspired this year, are adding outside issues of contention which are only likely to increase, and have been drawing in even some of those people who normally manage to avoid such patterns on all other topics.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Nov 22 2016, 12:04am
Post #8 of 37
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We can argue politics all over the internet; I want this place to be a refuge, Rivendell or The Shire which are safe from the outside world. If that makes me a special snowflake, then, let it snow!
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 22 2016, 1:11am
Post #9 of 37
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Ditto what Meneldor said. (PS. I want you to dress as a snowflake next Halloween.) //
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Nov 22 2016, 1:44am
Post #10 of 37
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I, for one, would be sad about the ban
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Not particularly because I love discussing politics here. Actually, I'm not sure I've EVER discussed politics here, but...I probably have.
But I would be sad because TORN has always prided itself in our ability to have civil discussions about difficult topics, and if we've failed at that, then, well, in some way we've failed at being TORN. At least a little.
BUT, if we have failed, and it sounds like we have, then ban hammer it. We don't need divisive political arguments around here.
I hate taking toys from my kids, but I do it all the time when they prove they can't handle them. These days, of course, those toys are likely to be cell phones, but the point and message are the same.
Notta
Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Nov 22 2016, 1:55am
Post #11 of 37
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Under the circumstances, perhaps a "ban" would be for the best.
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However, I should say this is only so because of what is considered "insulting" or "hurting feelings" where politics are concerned.
I am not, nor have I ever been, one to hurl insults on the board. Which is not to say that I haven't wanted to post things that I would certainly regret. But I have done my best to remain civil on the boards.
Where I hold a disagreement with the mods (and I genuinely say this with all due respect) is in what crosses the line. Last week I posted something about my emotional reaction to the election. It was then brought up that such comments would inadvertently hurt the feelings of others who did not share my political leanings. But I can't help but wonder if this is an overreaction? Disagreements are not limited to politics. I could just as easily express an impassioned response to a film, book, or news item. Surely, we aren't expected to hold back for fear of offending someone who may have had a completely different reaction to said thing?
I whole-heartedly agree that actual insults have no place here (whether they be personal or targeted towards a larger group), but the expression of personal political opinions and/or emotional reactions to elections, policies, etc. do not seem, in my opinion, to fall under the category of unreasonable or rude speech.
Having said that, I am of course not in a position to say what is or is not "okay" for discussion on these boards. I respect that such decisions are at the moderators' discretion.
Given this, I would not be opposed to a ban. Even respectful political discourse will inevitably invite passions. I know that I myself am incapable of separating passion from my political stances. So perhaps it would simply be for the best if we did away with it altogether.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 22 2016, 2:17am
Post #12 of 37
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Don’t you Admins./Moderators have enough to do?
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I too am all for a ban on political discussion. Politics are (to me) the most divisive and argumentative of subjects, and always seem to begger a nastiness and name calling. And I see no end to it. The election is over. Let’s live with it! But the next four years are going to be filled with half the country continuing to blast the other half – precognition? Just wait!
There are many OT debates (or just good old discussions) that we may have but none as conflictive as politics where goodwill takes a back-seat and offensiveness takes the fore, nearly everytime.
If it’s a vote – I say ban politics from TORn!
*heads over to Pollantir*
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Annael
Immortal
Nov 22 2016, 5:17am
Post #13 of 37
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I need a refuge. Not going to find it in my family or friends, or on Facebook, or in church . . . I've been watching a lot of football, which I've never done before.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Starling
Half-elven
Nov 22 2016, 6:27am
Post #14 of 37
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Whose politics and how do we define it?
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How will it be decided what is a political discussion?
I am asking this because I have what might be considered to be a political conversation every day. It is a part of life for me. I understand that recent events in the US have brought things to a head, but surely there is a lot more to politics than this? Will I still be able to talk about NZ political issues on TORn? Other political issues?
Are there cultural differences in how we define and discuss politics? I have often wondered this. Do I have a different take on it as a Kiwi compared to the majority American membership here or is it just my personal beliefs?
Thank you Silverlode, and all of the other Mods, for the amazing work you do. Sorry for all the questions - I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. I would be really sad if there was some sort of blanket political ban. But then I don't have to deal with what you Mods deal with.
If it feels like TORn is becoming an unsafe place to be then I will go with whatever you all decide.
This community is too precious to be put in danger.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Nov 22 2016, 7:40am
Post #15 of 37
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Thoughts from a non-American who (until recently) has spent considerable time away from TORn.
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Let me begin by saying that I think everything that has been raised is a fair assessment: this discussion is about whether TORn is an appropriate platform to discuss political topics. I won't be turning up at TORn HQ with my pitchfork with a placard saying "Maggie Thatcher doesn't approve", but I do want to openly put out there some of my immediate thoughts having read this.
Now, the two things I mention in this posts subject line I think are important and relevant.
Firstly, TORn is (and always has been) heavily US-based (in terms of membership, news stories, etc.). I presume 'recent political events' can only refer to the US election (please correct me if I am wrong). And because of that my first thought was: is it really fair to ban all political discussions solely based on these events? While there are several US-related (e.g. the election, gun crime) and worldwide-related (e.g. the politics of climate change, war) political issues which are heavily contested (and yes, they rely on mature people to intelligently express and discuss ideas) and do come up fairly regularly, I think there are many, many, many important political issues which should be allowed to be discussed: women's rights, the economy, foreign policy, equality, health care, the environment. All of these are important issues, but if I wanted to discuss any of these (to share my woes, fears, or experiences with other TORn users) would they be deleted? On a more personal level, I couldn't discuss how the outfall of Brexit is going to effect my job or how X country has starting oil mining in the Arctic and its going to be an environmental disaster?
And also related to this is other non-spirited debates. Political threads can be blind, filled with biased opinions. But what about religious threads, which can equally be intolerant rants laced with prejudice and bigotry? Should religious discussions on TORn be banned, too? And then what ...?
Secondly, there are one or two reasons why I have spent sometime away from TORn. The number one reason was because it was becoming to easy to offend someone. Not vindictively, but an increase in the number of people being offended by any and every opinion someone else posts. And the admin have had to act upon that. I have had more warnings from the admins about the content and tone of my posts since the release of BO5A than I have ever done my entire time on this forum. That's not their fault (I'm not questioning the rules), but in my opinion we seem to have moved away from the ethos that: if you don't like it, move on. Which is related to this:
We see more and more people taking the approach that: "If I'm right and it's important, then civility is optional. If I'm sure of my rightness, I'm entitled to lecture the other person about their wrongness." And the corollary is held true as well; "If they're wrong, they deserve what they get. If I attack this bit of wrongness it will be a blow against all the other wrongness in the world I can't reach."
We don't need to create conflict where none should exist, and unfortunately, there are notable trolls that thrive on it. While I like the idea of discussing any topic, maybe not everyone is mature enough to carry a civil conversation without the admins stepping in. With a mix of generations, of religions, of backgrounds, and of races, it is difficult to strike a balance. Political discussions are only going to work if all the people discussing it are knowledgeable about the world and mature enough to discuss a controversial topic. Does the moderation of the forum need to be stepped up? Maybe, maybe not? Is it really worth it? I don't know.
As you can see I am conflicted: I would cautiously say that no matter what, even if you strongly disagree with someone, you should never shut down communication of ideas. Political threads help people learn, and can provide some serious conversation. However, TORn isn't really the platform for it.
It's a tricky one.
Thank you for letting us know.
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Nov 22 2016, 1:34pm
Post #17 of 37
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Not only was the topic post thoughtful and well-written, but I feel the mods have been doing a tremendous job in this area. And it is clearly a job that has been getting more difficult and more thankless as the years have gone by.
Thus, if the mods say it is time to be done, it's time to be done.
Notta
Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Nov 22 2016, 2:45pm
Post #18 of 37
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I understand but it makes me sad
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My personal view of the world has changed dramatically in the last year. I got the Pollyanna slapped out of me good and hard. I understand now that what I thought before was silly and naive. I know better now. Some people don't have a core of civility that you can reach if you try hard enough. Some people are so enamoured of their own opinions that compromise and even (gasp!) growth and acceptance will never happen. And some people, who have surrounded themselves with those of like opinions, can never see the opposing side as anything but the enemy, no matter how much time, energy and effort you put into giving that "other" a human face. I made that mistake, spending personal energy I didn't have, trying to reach someone and it almost killed me. No amount of giving would have been enough. It ended with me being branded a bad friend, which only made the hurt deeper.
Even here at TORn, I see now that there are some (as someone else said previously) notable trolls, who have a penchant for taking offense, digging in their heels and accepting only one viewpoint (theirs) so that discussions become diatribes or fruitless waste of time. A few more folks have joined them at their lunch table of closed minds.
And it's not fun.
I think the Modars are correct in limiting the toys in the sandbox at least for now. They have to work too darn hard stopping the flinging sand for this to be anything other than a job to them. That's not fun either and they are all volunteers. As a professional volunteer, I understand their situation. Sometimes the time you put in just isn't worth what is coming out of the situation and it's time for a change.
I personally am going to walk on by that one lunch table and look for the folks who have always made TORn a wonderful place to come and nerd out over Tolkien. I'm going to sit with the cool kids - you know, the ones with the books and the nerdy t-shirts. (They're probably band/music kids too, but that may just be a personal preference for music geeks.) I'm going to look for the creative types, the ones who are open to the world in all its wonders. I'm going to make sure I thank those Modars frequently for keeping our sandbox clean and the air (relatively) free from sand.
I'm going to go read a book. (Probably Tolkien.)
But if you see me on any other sites, or you meet me in person, or PM me and you ask my opinion on other matters, you will hear that opinion. There are ways to be civil, get your point across and learn things in the process. I'm done being a doormat but there is a time and a place. TORn is not that place.
So, Thank you Modars! You do a thankless but fantastic job of keeping this site running. I value you time and your efforts. Have a great day!
_
Heed WBA when building blanket forts.
ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Annael
Immortal
Nov 22 2016, 3:20pm
Post #19 of 37
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I made that mistake, spending personal energy I didn't have, trying to reach someone and it almost killed me. No amount of giving would have been enough. It ended with me being branded a bad friend, which only made the hurt deeper.
more than once, I assumed that because we'd been friends for a long time and liked each other very much that we could actually discuss stuff . . . only to find that no, we couldn't, and more than that, I was being judged even for trying.
This happened years ago to me and the person I thought was my best friend. It wasn't politics in that case, but more just attitude towards life, I guess I'd call it. I was a bad friend for not agreeing with her that her outlook - which was ruining relationships for her - was the right one to have. I brought up the saying "you can either have relationships, or you can be right." She chose the latter.
Out of that and other experiences I learned that a true friend is the one who will go to the mat with you in the spirit of understanding and working things out. When I can work through something painful with a friend, it always strengthens and deepens the relationship, because the trust level skyrockets.
Years ago I had a months-long off-board exchange with a TORNado who holds very different views from mine. We managed to keep it civil and I think we both learned a lot, even though we never did find agreement. There were times when we had to laugh because one of us might say "I've always thought that [you people] do THIS" and the other would say "why, I've always thought the same of [you people], just in a different form!" We got to see our own prejudices, which might have been the best thing I took away from that.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Nov 22 2016, 4:53pm
Post #20 of 37
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What Annael said - Refuge
I'm THIS close to deactivating my Facebook account...except I enjoy all the pretty photos every morning from some of the sites that I follow, especially the horses. I also recommend 'Geology Wonders' and 'Beautiful Universe Telescope Hubble' as a day brightener:
Kryptonite discovered!
http://www.geologyin.com/...covered-in-mine.html
Spiral galaxy
Pretty horses
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
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Annael
Immortal
Nov 22 2016, 6:16pm
Post #21 of 37
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I've "unfollowed" a lot of people
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we're still friends, I'm just not getting battered with the gazillion preaching-to-the-choir posts . . .
sadly, did have to unfriend a few people who couldn't let me have my own opinions.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 22 2016, 11:15pm
Post #22 of 37
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"I got the Pollyanna slapped out of me good and hard."
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Well put. Wise men have said, "The arc of the moral universe is long but it bends toward justice", but sometimes we forget the "long" part.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 22 2016, 11:24pm
Post #23 of 37
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"It is hard walkin' on this stuff."
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Excellent post.
I worry a little that posts that don't mean to be political will be banned, because someone else will misread what is meant to be merely descriptive as political. In the "What Are You Reading?" threads, squire posted several times, years ago, about reading Bill Clinton's autobiography. He discussed the subject with a historian's eye, as befits a history teacher (although he wasn't yet one at the time, I don't think). I don't believe anyone took offense to what he wrote, but I could certainly imagine it happening, especially now.
Sadly, if this course of action is followed, and I understand that it might have to be, some good discussions that are explicitly controversial will be lost. One of the most brilliant posts ever on these forums was Darkstone's contribution to a sub-thread, that sprung up, in another "Reading?" thread, in response to a discussion about homosexuality in the Bible. Sheer genius.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Nov 22 2016, 11:25pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Nov 22 2016, 11:27pm
Post #24 of 37
(28238 views)
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Sorry for stepping on your toes.
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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I didn't realize when I posted in the Pollantir forum that I was basically repeating what you and Daniel had already expressed here. Good thoughts, both.
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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