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Summary of new Beren and Luthien book edited by C. Tolkien
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Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 4:09am

Post #1 of 32 (3195 views)
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Summary of new Beren and Luthien book edited by C. Tolkien Can't Post

http://www.looper.com/...pinoff/s/image-4334/


squire
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 4:34am

Post #2 of 32 (3131 views)
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Very funny read - The Silmarillion explained to film-only fans [In reply to] Can't Post

It really does open ones eyes to realize that to explain 'Beren and Luthien' to hopeful film 'spin-off'' fans, one need only call the Silmaril "a priceless jewel" and move on to how there's new monsters and a female character who's basically warrior-Arwen. but no appearances by any of the characters you already know (except Sauron).

But this piece does not summarize the C. Tolkien book coming out next year. That is, it does not tell us what choices he has made to publish the tale as a stand-alone book. It only summarizes the story as we know it: a series of undeveloped tales from the various "loose collections" of Tolkien's "backstory" to Middle-earth.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 4:49am

Post #3 of 32 (3118 views)
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True, and the likelihood of a film is as remote as The Children of Hurin. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 7:14am

Post #4 of 32 (3113 views)
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Announcement [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.tolkiensociety.org/...k-beren-and-luthien/


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2016, 3:11pm

Post #5 of 32 (3092 views)
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Compilation [In reply to] Can't Post

So, confirmation that the book is a compilation of JRRT's various versions of B&L and not anything more directly resembling a novel. This isn't anything we didn't already know, but it's nice to have it spelled out.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 3:24pm

Post #6 of 32 (3062 views)
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It looks like the story was a little more difficult to harmonize than [In reply to] Can't Post

The Children of Hurin or I would have expected a similar treatment.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2016, 3:53pm

Post #7 of 32 (3057 views)
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Beren the Elf [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm surprised that the article at looper.com fails to mention that in Tolkien's original conception, Beren was an Elf, not a Man.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


ange1e4e5
Gondor

Nov 9 2016, 4:00pm

Post #8 of 32 (3051 views)
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So will Beren be an Elf or a Man in the published Beren and Luthien? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 4:09pm

Post #9 of 32 (3048 views)
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I think the intention is to show all of the versions side by side [In reply to] Can't Post

 


ange1e4e5
Gondor

Nov 9 2016, 4:13pm

Post #10 of 32 (3046 views)
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What do you mean, side-by-side, it's a straightforward question, is he going to be an elf or a man? [In reply to] Can't Post

 

I always follow my job through.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Nov 9 2016, 4:39pm

Post #11 of 32 (3044 views)
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Had you read the link provided it would have answered your question [In reply to] Can't Post

"....he has told the story in his father’s own words by giving, first, its original form, and then passages in prose and verse from later texts that illustrate the narrative as it changed."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 9 2016, 5:13pm

Post #12 of 32 (3037 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
So will Beren be an Elf or a Man in the published Beren and Luthien?


Both, as others have already explained.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


malickfan
Gondor


Nov 9 2016, 5:47pm

Post #13 of 32 (3033 views)
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Isn't there a unpublished Prose version of the story? [In reply to] Can't Post

I vaguely recall Christopher Tolkien mentioning or quoting from a prose version of the Lay Of Leithian and/or another incomplete prose version of the story dating from the 1930's somewhere in the H.O.M.E (The Lays Of Beleriand? The Lost Road?) but that might be my memory playing tricks on me...








Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 10 2016, 12:57pm

Post #14 of 32 (3001 views)
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Not yet published prose fragment [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Tolkien notes that an updated long prose version was not known to him when the Silmarillion was prepared for publication, and also that '... it is so closely based on the rewritten form of the Lay as to read in places almost as a prose paraphrase of the verse.' Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Lost Road And Other Writings

And although a substantial text it goes no further than the betrayal by Dairon to Thingol of Beren's presence in Doriath.


InTheChair
Rohan

Nov 11 2016, 5:58pm

Post #15 of 32 (2946 views)
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Vamps and Werewolves are dark, large, foul and mean, and that's as often as not as far as Tolkiens description of evil creatures tends to go. [In reply to] Can't Post

Whoever wrote that looper piece can't be very familiar with the works of Tolkien. Those looking for new facts about werewolves or vampires are most likely going to be bittelry dissapointed.
Since they already published the lay, I hope this will contain the prose version of the lay.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Nov 11 2016, 5:58pm)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 12 2016, 3:40am

Post #16 of 32 (2885 views)
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Prose versions [In reply to] Can't Post

I certainly hope we get the 1950s prose version. Honestly, if we don't, I can't understand the point of this book. There would have to be something new, I'd think, to make it worth publishing. I'll be bitterly disappointed if it's not included.

But aside from that, there's the 1930s prose draft A (as Christopher calls it) that we still haven't seen either. It was meant to be in the Silmarillion but was getting too long, so Tolkien started over and condensed it. That next draft (the shorter one) was also abandoned and restarted again, but it forms the basis of part of the chapter in the published book. As far as I'm aware, draft A was not used in the published text, and so I'd like to read that one too.

I'm still wondering how this book is going to be presented. The publisher's blurb says it's a standalone completion, but the press release contradicts that. I'm hoping for some further information soon.


InTheChair
Rohan

Nov 12 2016, 8:36am

Post #17 of 32 (2869 views)
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I certainly hope we get the 1950s prose version. [In reply to] Can't Post

Is not this what the published Silmarillion is based on?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 13 2016, 2:53am

Post #18 of 32 (2807 views)
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*waves* Nice to see you again, Ardamire! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 14 2016, 7:13pm

Post #19 of 32 (2753 views)
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Hi, CG! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see you, too! What are your thoughts on this latest book announcement? I was stunned, and am very much looking forward to seeing what we get.


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 14 2016, 7:15pm

Post #20 of 32 (2753 views)
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Nope [In reply to] Can't Post

We've seen nothing from the 1950s prose version. As Elthir pointed out above, Christopher says he was unaware of its existence when putting together the published Silmarillion.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 14 2016, 9:02pm

Post #21 of 32 (2751 views)
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I think I'm wait and see [In reply to] Can't Post

I do like the version we have in the published Silmarillion. Could there be a better, alternate version? Possibly. Or could they take that version and embellish on some parts that seem condensed? That would be my ideal.

But I believe the press release (I need to go back and re-read it; short memory) said it would be more HOME-like, with different versions presented. That could still be interesting in its own right, but doesn't take the place of a stirring narrative. If I read the Sil straight through, I feel like things are pretty gloomy just before the B&L story, and then their story comes at the right psychological moment to be a big boost. (Even within the narrative it does, as it inspires Maedhros and others, though that ends badly.) Still, it's one of my favorite parts, so I just have to wait & see what's altered.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 14 2016, 9:36pm

Post #22 of 32 (2745 views)
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Scholarly work vs. popular fiction [In reply to] Can't Post

To be honest I would prefer to see the story of Beren and Lúthien presented as a complete novel with the previous versions included as appendices with notes. However, if Christopher Tolkien didn't feel up to that, I don't know who I would have suggested as a collaborator (though probably not Kevin J. Anderson!).

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 15 2016, 12:28am

Post #23 of 32 (2734 views)
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There seems to be mixed reports [In reply to] Can't Post

About the content of the book. The press release makes it sound like HOME-lite, but the publisher's description says it's continuous text. Also, the cover is so comparable to The Children of Hurin, that it's hard not to draw the conclusion that it's more of the same. Also, the cover says "edited by" which I wouldn't think necessary if it was more of HOME (though I can't remember if those books also have Christopher as editor on the cover).

After my initial hesitation, I've come around to the idea that I'd prefer a standalone, continuous story. At first I thought that would be a distortion of what Tolkien actually wrote, but I realized that even the chapter we have now in Silm77 is a mash-up of different materials, so it wouldn't be any different. Ultimately I think using the Lay as the basis and sprinkling in prose between lines would work (though I'd make it clear in the preface that doing so was the editor's choice and not how Tolkien originally wrote the story).


InTheChair
Rohan

Nov 15 2016, 7:13pm

Post #24 of 32 (2693 views)
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How many upublished prose versons? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I have some confusion. Is Ethir talking about the prose version of the lay, or about another prose version from around 1950? Or are these two one and the same?



Edit: Ah sorry. It was this quote from you that has made me mix things up.



Quote

But aside from that, there's the 1930s prose draft A (as Christopher calls it) that we still haven't seen either. It was meant to be in the Silmarillion but was getting too long, so Tolkien started over and condensed it. That next draft (the shorter one) was also abandoned and restarted again, but it forms the basis of part of the chapter in the published book. As far as I'm aware, draft A was not used in the published text, and so I'd like to read that one too.




In that case I hope we get to see some of both the 1950:s prose version and of this early 1930:s text.
I think I'm beginning to look forward to this book for the first time.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Nov 15 2016, 7:19pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Nov 16 2016, 1:52pm

Post #25 of 32 (2656 views)
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the long and short of it [In reply to] Can't Post

That's right... I was referring to the long prose version -- as intended to be long -- as opposed to earlier draft versions that became too long for the Silmarillion tradition (let's call the QS tradition the short prose version). The long prose version was embarked upon in the time when The Lord of the Rings was "finished" but its publication doubtful.

Back to the earlier QS versions, Christopher Tolkien described text A (already referred to in the thread) as a rough draft, soon abandoned, which was followed by QS1, again a very full form (but less so than A) , which was also abandoned quite early in the tale.

So at this point the story intended for the Silmarillion "kept overflowing the bounds". JRRT next made a rough draft B for the whole story which became the basis for a second, more compressed QS version, and this was interrupted toward the end when JRRT sent the QS manuscript to his publishers... then we have text C, continued as a substitute when the QS manuscript was with Allen and Unwin, which completed the tale... then in 1951 the conclusion of Beren and Luthien was at last added to the QS manuscript.

Those are different texts compared to the revision of The Lay of Leithian and the long prose saga (the text I referred to in my earlier post) that were taken up when The Lord of the Rings was finished but not yet published.

I suppose we could see some of these earlier prose starts too, but in my last post I didn't have The Lost Road handy to confuse anyone properly about this (which matter is more detailed in the Lost Road of course)...

Wink

Basically I've just jabbered more about what Ardamire already referred to!


(This post was edited by Elthir on Nov 16 2016, 1:57pm)

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