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Eagles as transport - where did the idea come from?

noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 12:48pm

Post #1 of 16 (2469 views)
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Eagles as transport - where did the idea come from? Can't Post

From here, possibly?

[Caption - the current pub sign for The Eagle and Child Pub in St Giles, Oxford, one of Tolkien's locals. The sign shows an eagle in flight, using a sling to carry a baby in its talons. Photographed by me, 2016]

The Eagle and Child has had at least 3 signs in the 20+ years I've lived near Oxford. The current eagle looks like it is standing in for the delivery duties usually give to storks, and is being as badass as possible about it to cover up its embarrassment. If I remember correctly, an earlier sign looked much more like an illustration of the Greek myth about the abduction of Ganymede (https://en.wikipedia.org/...Ganymede_(mythology)). Ganymede was a young lad who was carried off by either an eagle under Zeus' orders, or by Zeus himself in the form of an eagle. In my memory, the 'Ganymede' baby in the old pub sign seemed to have mixed feelings about the whole adventure, as perhaps well he might.

But that doesn't seem to be the origin of the pub sign, which seems to go indirectly back to Saxon myths about eagles as baby-snatchers: perhaps a matter of interest to Tolkien professionally. The pub (as is pretty common for English pubs) derives its sign from devices of the local nobility - in this case the Stanley family, the Earls of Derby. How the Earls of Derby end up with an eagle and child in their arms is a pretty good story:


Quote
Many legends exist about the origin of the eagle and child crest of the Stanleys which was probably taken from the crest of the Lathoms. One account tells of a Sir Thomas Lathom who greatly desired a male heir, but his wife was advanced in years and their only child was a daughter. One day, he and his wife were walking in Tarlescough Woods, a wild section of his estate when they heard an infant crying. Servants were sent to investigate and they returned with a young male child which they had found lying in the grass below an eagle's eyre. In another version, it was discovered in an eagle's nest. The child was well dressed, and Sir Thomas and his wife decided to bring it up as their own son, naming him 'Oskatel'.

The tradition of a child being found unharmed in an eagle's nest is very old and exists in folklore in many parts of Europe, notably in Norway and France. King Pepin was said to have discovered a child in similar circumstances, and another tale exists that King Alfred the Great found a child after hearing it crying while he was out hunting. When his servants investigated, they discovered a male child in an eagle's eyre, dressed in purple with gold bracelets on its arms (the mark of Saxon nobility). The King named it 'Nestingium' and had it baptized and educated. It has been suggested that these old tales gave Sir Thomas Lathom the idea in the first place, when despairing of a son by his wife, he is said to have had an intrigue with a young gentlewoman whom he kept in a house nearby. She gave him a son, and his problem was to get it recognized and accepted by his wife in such a way that her mind would be free of jealousy. He thereupon arranged the whole thing, and the child was brought up as her adopted son and made heir to part of his estate.

excerpt from The House of Stanley from the 12th Century by Peter Stanley, retrieved from here http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/...age/stanleycrest.htm



From babies being carried by eagles to dwarves, hobbits and wizards getting a ride doesn't seem to far a jump to me, though of course I can't prove anything. Actually of course no real-life eagle could manage it - an eagle can carry about a third of its body weight (https://www.nationaleaglecenter.org/eagle-diet-feeding/) so perhaps 1 - 2 kg (roughly 2- 5 lbs).

~~~~~~

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(This post was edited by noWizardme on Nov 4 2016, 12:49pm)


enanito
Rohan

Nov 4 2016, 2:08pm

Post #2 of 16 (2426 views)
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African or European eagle? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard there's differences between what an African or European swallow can carry, how about Eagles? Those Valinorean Eagles might have a better weight ratio... Wink


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 2:10pm

Post #3 of 16 (2421 views)
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They ones that carry around coconut shells // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Lissuin
Valinor


Nov 4 2016, 2:23pm

Post #4 of 16 (2425 views)
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Answer: Maybe from New Zealand....and the Haast Eagle? [In reply to] Can't Post


image reprinted from http://www.prehistoric-wildlife.com/...h/haast's-eagle.html

First described by Julius von Haast in 1871.
http://www.wingspan.co.nz/...nd_haasts_eagle.html

BBC video from series: Monsters We Met {Warning: bird on human violence}Pirate
http://www.bbc.co.uk/...ast's_Eagle#p00cl8kf

Discovery Science video {Warning: Same}Pirate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUkgdYq7Zos

Very big bird. Might have carried a hobbit. Smile


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 3:34pm

Post #5 of 16 (2416 views)
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Oh, here we go, all Monty Python now. [In reply to] Can't Post

But what about storks delivering babies when they're born? Do storks drop them off, and then eagles snatch them? Do parents get to enjoy their newborns at all, or does it all go to the birds?

I think there's a good reason to have babies well away from birds. Or to have a shotgun handy when you give birth.


Meneldor
Valinor


Nov 4 2016, 3:43pm

Post #6 of 16 (2414 views)
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There's a verse in Exodus where God says to Moses, [In reply to] Can't Post

"Did I not bear Israel out of Egypt on the wings of eagles?" If you choose to interpret that literally, it makes for quite the amazing mental image of the exodus. Shocked


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 3:59pm

Post #7 of 16 (2396 views)
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"Haast, thou's slain the Jabberwock!" [In reply to] Can't Post

What a fantastic creature that must have been! Oh and I notice Australia only has the Little Eagle of Australia (Hieraaetus morphnoides) Wink

But more than likely Australia has an eagle that is extravagantly venomous, or can drink more beer.....

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 4:01pm

Post #8 of 16 (2399 views)
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Could there possibly be anything more all-American... [In reply to] Can't Post

Than having a shotgun in the delivery room, in case of eagles? Wink

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 4:16pm

Post #9 of 16 (2398 views)
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Come to think of it, it's a bit odd for artists to represent Ganymede as a baby [In reply to] Can't Post

Zeus abducted him to be a cup-bearer, not because he wanted to change nappies.

~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172

A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 4 2016, 8:33pm

Post #10 of 16 (2380 views)
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We generally have shotguns on hand for every occasion. [In reply to] Can't Post

Births, deaths, marriages, special sales on lattes at Starbuck's, and especially when your in-laws visit. A shotgun is almost as versatile in solving situations as duct tape.


Ingwion
Lorien


Nov 5 2016, 1:05pm

Post #11 of 16 (2350 views)
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Phew [In reply to] Can't Post

That would take a whole lot of eagles! Wink


It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.

It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Nov 11 2016, 1:30am

Post #12 of 16 (2261 views)
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fantastic! [In reply to] Can't Post

We have many eagles here on the Susquehanna River and Chespeake Bay. No carrying off of babies, though they could carry off your cat.

Or break both bones in your arm if you decided to hold one...

bigger on the inside...

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...

Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...






Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 11 2016, 3:43am

Post #13 of 16 (2256 views)
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The four things necessary for a civilized life [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Duct Tape
2. Bailing Wire
3. WD-40
4. A good pump-action 12-gauge shotgun.... ( the click-clack is usually good enough Cool)

‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'

Gandalf to Denethor




CuriousG
Half-elven


Nov 11 2016, 12:37pm

Post #14 of 16 (2243 views)
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"duct tape" is almost a meme [In reply to] Can't Post

I was playing an online game, and someone was asking for help in public chat since they were having various technical issues. Several people suggested they clear their cache, and one person observed, "Clearing cache: the duct tape of video games."


squire
Half-elven


Nov 11 2016, 12:51pm

Post #15 of 16 (2240 views)
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"Duct Tape: the nanny's friend" [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw that in Doonesbury at least ten years ago. I think it's a strong meme already!

Any others?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Nov 11 2016, 1:51pm

Post #16 of 16 (2240 views)
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As is WD-40 (google it for dozens of uses) [In reply to] Can't Post



‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'

Gandalf to Denethor



 
 

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