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Maciliel
Valinor
Nov 2 2016, 6:09am
Post #1 of 34
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last chapter: journey to the grey havens -- 1
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like many, i have read lotr many times. i have had the additional pleasure of discovering the unabridged audio version narrated by the wholly gifted robert inglis, who gives voice to elves, hobbits, dwarves, orcs, rohirrim, ladies, and gents, and a smeagol as if they all are truly alive and he is channeling them, instead of narrating.
the bittersweetness of this last chapter, the tearful joy, was never quite as poignant to me as with this most recent reading.
more of that later. i'm not going to quite start at the beginning. i want to pick around the edges first.
first off.... we have elves meeting up with hobbits again. they've always lived within some sort of memory / awareness in the shire. each group knows of the other, has "lore" of the other. but how much actual interaction have they had? i think of these two groups who have coexisted peacefully -- but separately -- , and now representatives from these two groups are physically, emotionally coming together for a tremendous interaction, a historic step for each.
elves of the first age, of valinor, are set to cross the sea. if we think back to nerwen's / artanis' spirited speech that dark night in valinor, when the light of the trees was out and they lay dying. mabye on that night she stood on the shore of aman and faced east. now she stands, with her long memory, at the shore on the other side of the sea, facing west. in all of her visionary powers, did she ever forsee an inkling of her return journey with two small beings, of such humble stature and nature? she who was deemed (along with feanor) the mightiest of all the eldar, and who --- long ages ago -- thought upon lands she could rule and improve, she one of the greatest, most gifted, standing on that westward-looking shore next to the smallest folk, who are almost the definition of anti-ambition. fitting? ironic? is this something she would notice and reflect upon?
the hobbits might be filled with wonder -- seeing the sea for the first time, seeing this city of elves, seeing the particular nobility and grace of the primary elves who accompany them. they have spent most of our chapters in lands east of their homeland. now they, too, are facing west. their world view undoubtedly got bigger through their travels through middle earth. the physical nature of their struggles. the touch of grace in its spiritual intercessions.
but facing west, those trials are at their backs. in facing west, they are looking over an untroubled sea ('tho it may be also a mystery). how much bigger does their world get now? are they better able to perceive the grace of illuvutar and the beauty of this world, now standing on the shore, beholding a vista that was always within reach, but never something to which they outstretched their hands?
when they return to the shire (well, three of them, at least), of course they will continue to farm, and drink ale, and tell jokes. but will this vision of the sea, this moment in time when they can stand in peace with the eldest of the children of illuvutar, who may help them hear the messages in the music of the water --- do these hobbits bring that back in their hearts, and perhaps desire to more explore the sea, or at least sea-edging lands? what do they take back with them of the elves? have they made a connection now between the grace and beauty of the elves, and the sea, and the mallorn tree that now thrives in hobbiton, the connection between illuvutar, the music, and the bounty of the year 1420?
i am struck by this moment in time. the mighty, the first born, to whom such bountiful gifts have been given, standing next to those who are diminished in stature, considered not their equals in wisdom, and whose emergence in the annals of years was so undistinguished and their numbers so small even they themselves do not rightly know when they came to be. the contrast of these two peoples, looking westward, standing on the shore. was this always in the vision of illuvatar?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 2 2016, 8:27am
Post #2 of 34
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How much actual interaction have they had?
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Frodo seems to think that the elves wander into the Shire during Spring and Autumn, and believes that one can meet them sometimes in the Woody End. I've always thought that this meant Frodo and Bilbo at times encountered elves during their excursions throughout the Shire. Not really sure who else might be encountering elves in the Woody End...
But High Elves in the Shire was a surprise to Frodo (when he encountered Gildor).
So I'd think that if Frodo has such infrequent contact with elves, then other hobbits assuredly have even less. The elves appear to be aware of at least Frodo, but that's likely in their typical 'aloof' fashion, where they notice some things but really can't be bothered with such mundane goings-on of lesser beings. I imagine it was quite a shock when word filtered throughout elf-dom that halflings had been key in saving M.E.!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 2 2016, 11:21am
Post #3 of 34
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Two parallel (and complementary?) communities
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Very thought-provoking lead post Mac!
Elves and hobbits have of course had very little contact, if we ignore the party of them gathered by the short here.
I have a sense of hobbits and elves being in and around the Shire but for the most part studiously ignoring each other. They are different in very many ways, and yet have clear similarities.
One clear similarity is a somewhat nervous dismissal of other cultures. Shire society is sniffy about those who don't conform to its parochial ways, or are interested in the outside. Hobbits rarely travel of of the Shire now (or at least, don't tell about it if they do, adventuring not being a respectable passtime). No hobbit in memory has travelled to the eponymous towers of the tower hills, or to see the sea. I read their lack of curiosity and wish to stay at home in the comfort of their own ways as being, at base a deep insecurity about the outside world rather than (as it can seem) an assumption of racial or cultural superiority.
Some elves are great wanderers of course, but we also meet some who stick to their enclaves of Rivendell or Lorien, and have no interest in the affairs of mortals. In out last read-through of the Sil., we discussed the elven reaction to discovering other intelligent life in Middle-earth. A severe culture shock, I thought (and they'd never seen Khazad-dûm!)
It's tempting to think of Tolkien's essay/lecture On Fairy Stories and his comments on how 'Faerie' is a strange and different land, but not necessarily a geographical destination. Perhaps elves and hobbits are like real life and faerie, interleaved like the leaves of a wood?
Represented on the shore now though are the bridge builders: Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf as the great internationalists of the closing age, who have worked to build and maintain an anti-Sauron coalition. Bilbo and Frodo as the uncharacteristically cosmopolitan hobbits. Sam, the lover of old tales - particularly faerie-tales. Merry and Pippin who have been dragged along in their wake. I agee - ther eis a feeling of a moment of coming together of two worlds.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Ingwion
Lorien
Nov 2 2016, 1:25pm
Post #4 of 34
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Was this always in the vision of Illuvatar?
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Yes, I think it was. Bilbo was meant to find the ring, Frodo was meant to get it. Sam was meant to escape Shelob and take the ring. Gollum was meant to fall into the lava, and the small (hobbitses) were meant to confound the mighty (Sauron). This is quite a Biblical concept (the small will confound the mighty, I mean) and Tolkien would have been aware of this and may have incorporated it into his story - not allegorically, but as a beautiful divine concept.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Nov 2 2016, 2:41pm
Post #5 of 34
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I’ve always had a problem with Tolkien/Gandalf’s use of those words. It seems to mean preordained, fate, out of the hands of whomever. This discounts free will. Did Illuvatar’s vision mandate every jot and tittle forevermore. I always fall back on Illuvatar’s words in Ainulindale “… I will sit and hearken … “. Was he/she aware of the fall of every sparrow? – yes. Did he/she intervene? – no. “Meant to be” seems in many ways a “cop-out”.
So was it destiny (meant to be) that Gollum took the Ring, or did he simply take the Ring? Was it destiny that Bilbo found it, or did he simply find it? Was it destiny that he left it for Frodo, or did he simply leave it? And on and on. Where comes “chance”? Where comes “free will”? It’s my thought that Eru/God set the pieces/peoples in motion and rarely, very rarely, intervened, allowing chance and free will to run rampant, and the pieces/people to choose/make their own destiny.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Ingwion
Lorien
Nov 2 2016, 4:54pm
Post #6 of 34
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It's impossible to know for certain I suppose. You do have a point though.....
I'm not sure..
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 2 2016, 5:57pm
Post #7 of 34
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And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will.
.
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And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined
My takeaway is that there's lots of free will, and plenty of elbow room for making your own path in M.E. But no matter how much we might try, even our greatest efforts to go against the 'master plan' are perfectly accounted for. And it seems that the more opposition, the grander Ilúvatar's plan becomes.
So I try and think of "meant to be" in the sense of "Ilúvatar's got this". We shouldn't be terrified because all of a sudden there's this Ring of pure Evil that's dropped into our possession, and we're all screwed. Sure, from a personal point of view we might just be in trouble, and yeah that's no fun. But from the grand p.o.v., it's all good.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 2 2016, 6:18pm
Post #8 of 34
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I think that Tolkien means Middle-earth to be a world where there's both free will and a benign predestined divine plan. Sometimes I think about how those two things could be true simultaneously - it's easy to see predestination as only possible by removing choices. Whether the two are incompatible and whether either or both exist in real life is also, of course, a long-standing philosophical and theological debate.
If there's no free will at all, of course there are disastrous consequences for the story - characters are either never really in danger, or doomed from the outset. And Tolkien's moral themes collapse - we can't admire Frodo for being heroic or blame Saruman for becoming a villain if they are each simply completing their preset programming, with no real choice over what they do.
My current way of squaring this particular circle is to imagine that predestination is a highly opportunisitic and improvisational thing in Middle-earth. Clearly if Bilbo was meant to find the Ring since Creation Day, then a whole chain of prior events must have been pre-planned, which seems incompatible with free will. It's less of a difficulty if Bilbo was only meant to find the Ring for a much shorter time before he actually did find it. That would enable some other ring-finder to be give a chance if Bilbo had not accepted the dwarves contract, or had become a snack for three trolls.
After this read-through, I'm also pretty convinced that some Powers intervene subtly in day to day life- just enough to nudge the table at a critical time, rather than enough to take over the game or change its rules. The only overt intervention that I see is the resurrection of Gandalf.But 'nudges' could keep on creating opportunities, until one is accepted.
So in this particular context, I don't think it was always in Iluvatar's plan that precisely this group of creatures, on precisely this date, with precisely this back-story ended up awaiting a ship by the shore. But that isn't incompatible with a more general prediction or predestination allowing "the contrast of these two peoples, looking westward, standing on the shore." (NB: exact time, composition of party and back-stories may vary.)
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 2 2016, 7:34pm
Post #9 of 34
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For He did not predestine before He foreknew, but He predestined the rewards of those whose merits He foreknew.
-St. Ambrose, De fide 5.6.83. PL 16.692-93.
By being able to see all of creation past, present, and future, Eru preknows the outcome of the quest. But Frodo and Sam are still free agents in that Eru didn't predetermine their actions. They got to Mount Doom on their own merits. But when people have given their all and tried their best Eru is not above stepping in to give things a little nudge.
******************************************
Fimbrethil, Warrior Entwife
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InTheChair
Rohan
Nov 2 2016, 9:58pm
Post #10 of 34
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You change our minds, we make it happen. Iluvatar incorporated.
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how much actual interaction have they had? i think of these two groups who have coexisted peacefully -- but separately
Bilbo had spoken with them, (does GIldor even confirm this?) and someone like Farmer Maggot migtht be aware of them also. On the whole I think Hobbits would shun the elves though, same way they shun almost everyone else, except perhaps Dwarves.
do these hobbits bring that back in their hearts, and perhaps desire to more explore the sea, or at least sea-edging lands?
Sam is the one that eventually sets sail. Interesting given that of all of them he was most anti-boat. Somewhere though I suspect Sams longing might be more indictive of following his Master rather than beein attracted by the Sea.
the contrast of these two peoples, looking westward, standing on the shore. was this always in the vision of illuvatar?
Could have been, but it's not very clear what is meant by always? Iluvatar is free at any time to make any changes he finds appropriate. I suspect that when Gandalf says Bilbo was meant to find the ring, he intended, meant by a higher authority, rather than, meant from the beginning of time.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 3 2016, 12:00am
Post #11 of 34
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You conjure a nice image of Galadriel, you conjurer
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elves of the first age, of valinor, are set to cross the sea. if we think back to nerwen's / artanis' spirited speech that dark night in valinor, when the light of the trees was out and they lay dying. mabye on that night she stood on the shore of aman and faced east. now she stands, with her long memory, at the shore on the other side of the sea, facing west. in all of her visionary powers, did she ever forsee an inkling of her return journey with two small beings, of such humble stature and nature? she who was deemed (along with feanor) the mightiest of all the eldar, and who --- long ages ago -- thought upon lands she could rule and improve, she one of the greatest, most gifted, standing on that westward-looking shore next to the smallest folk, who are almost the definition of anti-ambition. fitting? ironic? is this something she would notice and reflect upon? It's not for nothing (which I know is awful grammar, but fun to say) that of all the Wise, the one person we see tempted by the One Ring the most is Galadriel. She was born both ambitious and talented, and she came to Middle-earth to rule a wide realm, not fight a long defeat. I think her separation from Middle-earth is possibly the most painful for the characters that we see. Elrond was born in Middle-earth and has never known Valinor, but his wife and possibly his parents are waiting across the sea. Gandalf is going home and will no longer be trapped in a physical body. But Galadriel--what does she have to show for 3 Ages of rule? A realm and people doomed to dwindle and slowly forget and be forgotten. Does she get on the boat feeling empty-handed?
Hasn't she always been surrounded by lesser people? Well, not always: she had that long tutelage in Doriath under Melian. But even there she was among the Sindar, who weren't as sophisticated as any Valinorean Elf. And after that, her people only got simpler--Haldir seemed a worthy person, but not as sharp as someone you'd expect to meet on the streets of Tuna. So taking ship with a couple of hobbits is probably not much different than ruling over Silvan Elves who never saw the Two Trees in their prime, never saw the Silmarils, and never had brunch with Varda.
She would be going home to her father and nameless mother, and her daughter Celebrian, and she'd have to wonder how many of her 4 dead brothers had been reincarnated, or if they ever would be. So all is not loss for her. And having passed her test, and gained in inner knowledge, would she have a deeper appreciation of the Valar and their role in the world, and what it means to be powerful and not necessarily have dominion over others? Would the Valar have a deeper appreciation of her?
And who knows, maybe there are some Starbucks that have opened up in Valinor since she's been away, so she can finally get a decent mocha latte. This could be a good turn of events for her.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 3 2016, 2:28pm
Post #12 of 34
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"‘I pass the test,’ she said. ‘I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.’"
Galadriel to Frodo, having declined to take the Ring
The Mirror of Galadriel, FOTR
I wonder whether Galadriel is feeling 'diminished' and what that would mean? The elves Rings of Power project has ended. Always something of a Faustian bargain, it allowed Galadriel to preserve a kingdom outside of normal time and decay; such distressing things to elves. This operation was a kind of 'embalming' Tolkien says, rather disapprovingly, in Letter 131 - an unnatural opting out of what Middle-earth should be like; a creating of a Little Valinor on one's own terms*.
So has Galadriel surrendered at last to necessity (or whatever you'd like to call it - 'Eru's grand plan', perhaps?) Should we see her as having grown in stature rather than diminished because of this?
It's possible to imagine that she's going back to Valinor sadder, wiser and chastened. One could even try to match this to the trope of 'talented and rebellious young person taught a lesson'. But that doesn't seem quite right to me. Galadriel has been Middle-earth's Metternich, the prime mover of its anti-Sauron coalitions. So perhaps, just like Gandalf, one would expect her to look back on a job that didn't always go to plan, but was still well done.
*What I don't know, come to think of it is whether it was Galadriel's idea to create /preserve Lorien with the power of the elven Ring, or whether she inherited this policy, along with the Ring, from an earlier ruler? Does anyone know?
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Nov 3 2016, 2:37pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Nov 3 2016, 3:54pm
Post #13 of 34
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Galdariel's diminishment vs Ingwë's growth
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So yeah, Galadriel's sees (and has likely forseen this for a long time) that she cannot truly recreate in M.E. the same state of perpetual bliss that she had experienced in Valinor. Sure she had a good share of pride, but to me it wasn't in an "evil" way, more in a "selfish" way, which I know doesn't justify going against Eru's plan (pride goeth before the fall, the road to Hell paved with good intentions, all that jazz).
But I'm struck by NWM's question of what Galadriel has become. To me, she has passed a test of fire, and come out stronger/wiser/humbler. And I'm wondering what kind of comparable growth she could have received had she remained by Ingwë's side at the feet of Manwë? How much growth has Ingwë gone thru during this time?
Don't get me wrong, hanging out in paradise, constantly experiencing the joy of your surroundings and the Valar, is priceless. But wouldn't Galadriel have a much greater appreciation for Valinor? To know true joy, do you need to experience a commensurate amount of suffering? Or can you be truly happy, like the Hobbits in their Shire bubble, protected from the evils of the world?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 3 2016, 5:24pm
Post #14 of 34
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But wouldn't Galadriel have a much greater appreciation for Valinor? To know true joy, do you need to experience a commensurate amount of suffering? Or can you be truly happy, like the Hobbits in their Shire bubble, protected from the evils of the world? She will be "diminished" in no longer being a de facto queen and no longer having the powers of a Great Ring. But she's lived in Valinor in its bliss, saw it fall into darkness, and then spent 3 Ages in Middle-earth, from the early hopeful days of the Noldor thinking they could beat Morgoth, then through many ups and downs to the ultimate defeat of Sauron. Isn't she going back to Valinor wiser and more insightful than any Elf who never left?
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sador
Half-elven
Nov 4 2016, 5:56am
Post #15 of 34
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Only a memory which will slowly fade, I'm afraid.
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As in The Last Ship, a poem we've discussed here
http://newboards.theonering.net/...21950=View+Flat+Mode:
Firiel looked from the river-bank,
one step daring;
then deep in clay her feet sank,
and she halted staring.
Slowly the elven-ship went by
whispering through the water:
‘I cannot come!’ they heard her cry.
‘I was born Earth’s daughter!’
No jewels bright her gown bore,
as she walked back from the meadow
under roof and dark door,
under the house-shadow.
She donned her smock of russet brown,
her long hair braided,
and to her work came stepping down.
Soon the sunlight faded.
Equals in wisdom? It seems to be two very different kinds of wisdom. Before Merry wakes up in the Houses of Healing, Aragorn says of him:
His grief he will not forget; but it will not darken his heart, it will teach him wisdom.
And when Merry wakes up, these seem to be the first wise words he says:
It is best to love first what you are fitted to love, I suppose: you must start somewhere and have some roots, and the soil of the Shire is deep. Still there are things deeper and higher; and not a gaffer could tend his garden in what he calls peace but for them, whether he knows about them or not. I am glad that I know about them, a little.
This seems to be the epitome of whatever wisdom hobbits might or should aspire to, as Tom Bombadil says of Farmer Maggot:
There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers; wisdom in his bones, and both his eyes are open.
Notice the clay, into which Firiel sank when rejecting the call.
Such a contrast with the Frodo, who seems to have been uprooted and transplanted into Elfland:
When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien.
(on a side note - could this sentence be the germ of the odd scene in Jackson's RotK in which Frodo is helped by Galadriel in Cirith Ungol?)
Frodo has gone over to the side of the elves. He might have, in Gandalf's words
become like a glass filled with clear light for eyes to see that can - but he has lost all hope of peace and healing in the Shire, and I can't help feeling that he is the worse for the exchange.
And that clearly wasn't Eru's intention for mortals. One hobbit needed to be sacrificed, perhaps - but this moment of transfiguration is not one of triumph, but of surrender.
(This post was edited by sador on Nov 4 2016, 5:58am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 4 2016, 9:53am
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Ethereal Frodo no longer fits in anywhere?
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I think that's an interesting idea - that Frodo has become in some way quite elvish (as can perhaps be seen from time to time by people who know him well when he takes on a luminous or transparent quality). Is this to do with being an 'elf-friend' - a title that is conferred upon Frodo several times, first in jest by Gildor, but thereafter with more seriousness? (I've never been all that sure I've understood what being an 'elf-friend' means.)
Perhaps this is yet another possible reading for why Frodo seems not to fit in the Shire any longer - he has "gone over to the side of the elves". Perhaps though, like a famous British Explorer* he's now caught between cultures - neither at home in the Shire, nor truly able to fit in with his adopted culture. And of course, Frodo always was something of a misfit in Shire society....
Perhaps this idea also makes sense of an exchange between Frodo and Merry as they are about to re-enter the Shire. Merry comments that the world outside the Shire feels like a dream; Frodo says that on the contrary, he feels like he is falling asleep again. perhaps each of them feels more 'awake' in the world to which they now belong?
I don't see this tension so much in Bilbo - I thought Bilbo's movie line about being ready for another adventure fitted quite well: a flash of the old character of a person now mostly exhausted by old age.
Sam? I've begun the find Sam's final line "Well, I'm back," wonderfully ambiguous. Is it deep contentment, or it is much more ambivalent than that? Is there a part of him that will always wish he'd been able to go with Frodo (just as there was part of Frodo, which grew stronger of the years, that wished he'd quite the Long-expected party with Bilbo)? This ambiguity about Sam's feelings would have been intensified had Tolkien kept the lovely last line from his proposed epilogue:
'And you came back,' said Rose.
'I did,' said Sam; 'to the most belovedest place in all the world. I was torn in two then, lass, but now I am all whole. And all that I have, and all that I have had I still have.'
They went in and shut the door. But even as he did so Sam heard suddenly the sigh and murmur of the sea on the shores of Middle-earth.
Tolkien's draft epilogue - cut from LOTR on the advice of his 'beta readers', but preserved in his papers and eventually published in HoME 9 (my italics for the last sentence that wanted to highlight)
As this quote shows, the Epilogue tends to be rather saccharine, and I think Tolkien was right to cut it. But that last line's superb.
--
*I think this is an observation of Wilfred Thesiger's, but I can't find the quote I'm thinking of. So I can't rule out it being TE Lawrence or Richard Burton (the explorer, not the actor).. It's a sentiment that would fit what I know of the other two very well, in fact, suggesting that ending up with a slight dislocation from several cultures might be something more generally associated with great explorers. Of course, one could argue what is cause and what is effect here - perhaps it i the feeling of being a misfiot that sends one exploring. And perhaps that applies to Frodo (and Bilbo) too.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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sador
Half-elven
Nov 4 2016, 12:13pm
Post #17 of 34
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Not the least because it is the signature of FarFromHome (who visited the RR a couple of weeks ago, when I wasn't around!  )
On another note - I think Gildor conferred on Frodo the title of elf-friend, while blessing him in the name of Elbereth, in full seriousness; and it was both potent and immediately effective - Goldberry noticed it, and the invocation of Elbereth stood Frodo in good stead twice against the Witch-king - Aragorn says that on Weathertop the name of Elbereth was deadly, more than the sword which missed; and it also stopped the Wiki for a moment which might have been critical at the Ford.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 4 2016, 8:43pm
Post #18 of 34
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Evolution = Elvishness, in my mind
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That's the undercurrent I get from reading LOTR, that the more advanced you are spiritually/ethically/personally, the more Elf-like you are. It's no accident that the most advanced Men take after the Elves, and if you're lucky like Aragorn, you get to marry one. There are times when Faramir speaks in the book, and I think he sounds like Elrond.
While I don't think it's entirely deliberate, or maybe it's deliberate but not meant to be literal, I think Frodo becomes more Elf-like throughout LOTR as he grows as a person. He seemed to start with some Elf-like potential thanks to Bilbo's connection to the Elves and influence over him. Hence, he would fit in in the West among the Elves there, and he's outgrown the Shire. Even if Frodo didn't have that physical & spiritual malaise, I don't think he'd ever feel at home again in the Shire.
I'm never sure what to make of "Elf-friend" either. I had always taken it as a casual, superficial remark, but as we discussed LOTR this year and other people talked about it, it seemed that naming him an Elf-friend was a sort of supernatural blessing upon him of sorts. I remain on the fence about that: not 100% convinced, but partly so. I suppose I may have to reread the trilogy a few more times to be sure of anything after this read-through upset so many of my old ideas. :)
(This post was edited by CuriousG on Nov 4 2016, 8:44pm)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Nov 4 2016, 11:12pm
Post #19 of 34
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In these final chapters, is how deadly and near to evil rule ME did become in the War with Sauron. The final few pages do become very sleepy, with Tolkien back in years going by quickly mode and one can easily forget how desperate events where a bit earlier in the book.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Nov 5 2016, 1:42pm
Post #20 of 34
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Iluvatar is free at any time to make any changes he finds appropriate. I suspect that when Gandalf says Bilbo was meant to find the ring, he intended, meant by a higher authority, rather than, meant from the beginning of time.
But Time was created at with and within Ea, so outside Ea there is no such thing at time. So at any one second Iluvatar, observing Ea, would watch The War of Wrath unfold before his eyes simultaneously with the destruction of the Ring. So as Iluvatar watched Men come into being, he could be watching a descendant of Men destroy the Ring. So Iluvatar could essentially have "sent" Gandalf "back" immediately after (or possibly before) the Valar descended into Ea. So really, at the "beginning of time" (aka the creation of Ea) Iluvatar at once, from his point of view, makes all the changes he ever makes in the whole history of Ea
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 5 2016, 2:28pm
Post #21 of 34
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Boethius, an early Christian philosopher, used a similar argument for real-word predesitnation, I think
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I tried to envisage it in an earlier discussion (here's it is, though I think your description is better!)
I was recently reading a possible philosophical solution, in Grant Sterling's essay, The Consolation of Bilbo. (It appears in a very interesting book, "The Hobbit and Philosophy" Ed. Bassham and Bronson, pub. Wiley-Blackwell.) it seems to me that it could work - Id be interested to hear what others think. It's really a version of Brethil's idea about "prophecies with wiggle room". Here's how I understand the idea: We are used to a world where there is one settled past. Our actions now - which appear to us to be based on our free will, and chance, and other factors - contribute to the one future we go on to experience. But, the argument runs, Eru exists outside time, and could have a complete view of the present and of all possible futures that can arise from it. I find it a bit hard to imagine this: it helps me to imagine a control room with lots of monitors on which all aspects of the present and all possible futures can be seen. Assuming I can watch an infinite number of monitors at once- which Eru maybe can, not even needing the monitors. ... This explanation bought to you by the philosopher Boethius, apparently. Grant Sterling quotes a Tolkien story which I haven't read - Ósanwe-kenta - for evidence that Tolkien saw things as working this way. an earlier noWizardme post http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=620131#620131
I still haven't read Ósanwe-kenta, BTW!
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 5 2016, 2:52pm
Post #22 of 34
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Bitter-sweet - hard to do and mostly pulled off
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I agree we certainly don't get a wholly happy ending (and I think I prefer Tolkien's more ambiguous and mixed ending to a conventionally happy one). It means this whole chapter is a difficult balancing act - probably all the more difficult as everything is winding down.
Some bits are brilliant:
I love the release of Lotho and Sharkey's opponents form the Lockholes - the determined emergence of Lobelia on her own two feet and her humbled reaction to her new popularity. I like the nice touch of Freadeager Bolger, who did not want to accompany the expedition out of the Shire, having had to make his own stand. He might be the only character who has to do this - at various times, our other characters are offered release from danger (or in Eowyn's case denied the opportunity to face it as she wishes) and someone raises the point that this isn't a full release. The point is always made that 'the black tide' of Sauron might overtake you anywhere and you might have to fight on your own ground, in your own way, whether or not anyone is there to appreciate it.But Gimli goes on from Lorien, Pippin and Merry both disavow their dismissals from their Lord's service, and Eowyn smuggles herself onto the battlefield. So only Fredeager (sorry I can't call him 'fatty' having been a fat child myself at whom that name was hurled, and not in good humour) has stayed where it appeared to be safe, and been challenged anyway.
And there's a place in the Shire called 'Scary' - isn't that nice?
I like the swift recovery of the Shire's agricultural fortunes and landscape, with the bitter note that the trees will of course take a generation or two to recover properly (applicable as a lament for the elms, being felled nation wide during Tolkien's time, perhaps?) I admire the lack of a parallel course for Frodo's health and his standing in the Shire.
I like the main point we've been discussing - the 'thinning' of Middle-earth as a less magical, less elvish fourth age dawns. I suppose we ought to stop to appreciate that there's an orderly transition, largely thanks to the efforts of Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf. We don't hear of elves remaining behind in Middle-earth in bitterness - angrily defending their former lands against the rise of Men, setting up no-go zones and kidnapping teh odd man (or woman) as per Tam Lin, for example.
There are a couple of points where it does get a bit over-sweet for me. I don't like Frodo foretelling Sam's fortunes, especially a roll call of some of his upcoming children. Either we have to accept that Frodo has now acquired a kind of superpower, or it's a clunky way of Tolkien reassuring us that all will be well for Sam. Sam and Rosie go on to have 13 children, it seems, so Frodo doesn't foresee them all, and nor does he get the birth order quite right.I like to think of that as deliberate on Tolkien's part some limitation of Frodo's rather over-convenient new power.
Wow - thirteen children. Good thing the Shire seems to be producing a lot of provender. Still Sam, if you will go scattering Galadriel's fertility dust around without wearing gloves and a surgical mask, I guess you've got to expect some consequences.
Difficult to write these ending chapters, I expect: with the antagonists now down, there isn't much to stop a sentimental author from showering their favourite characters with all kinds of goodies.
~~~~~~
The Sixth read-through of LOTR continues until Christmas. All chapters now have volunteer leaders. Schedule here; http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=916172#916172
A wonderful list of links to previous chapters in the LOTR read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 5 2016, 6:21pm
Post #23 of 34
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That is a good way to view it, I think--thanks.
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It's funny that JRR was no astrophysicist, but when you read about Einstein, relativity, black holes, etc, some of that science seems to be conceptually reflected in Tolkien's Eru-cosmos.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Nov 5 2016, 6:40pm
Post #24 of 34
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Since we are at the end of the chatpers, how did most people feel about the trilogy's ending?
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On first read, I didn't want the book to end at all. And for such a well-written book, I didn't like that flat ending of "Well, I'm back." I much prefer that last line of the Epilogue where Sam hears the sound of the Sea as he returns home--that seems so much more "true Tolkien" than the minimalist ending we're stuck with.
I didn't like the ending for Frodo at all, and I didn't appreciate that he was "going to a better place," I just felt a bad sense of defeat, that the whole quest had been a disaster for him.
But those were things I didn't like. I really appreciate how the Shire hobbits, who could have been divided between "collaborators" and "non-collaborators," and who could have become a more martial society in fear of future Sharkey invasions, instead quickly returned to being a unified group of happy people who quickly restored the land's arcadian charm. Things did work out happily ever after for most, and I liked how the lifelong friction between the Hobbiton Baggins and the Sackville-Baggins came to an end. Things even got better in some ways, such as the mention of how the ugly and unneeded brick buildings were torn down but the bricks were used to improve hobbit holes.
I really like this line, which is both reassuring and humorous:
And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.
And Wiz makes a good point here, because fairy stories are usually full of vengeful spirits punishing the living for things lost in the past (we even had The Dead fill that role in LOTR):
We don't hear of elves remaining behind in Middle-earth in bitterness - angrily defending their former lands against the rise of Men, setting up no-go zones and kidnapping teh odd man (or woman) as per Tam Lin, for example. There's something graceful about how everything is wrapped up, including the departure of the Elves--no booby traps left behind in Rivendell or the Woody End or wherever, we can be sure. And that's something I can now appreciate about Frodo, that though things didn't work out for him, he didn't become bitter, or full of self-pity, or end his friendship with Gandalf because it was the Wizard's fault, etc. He gracefully accepted his fate as well. So the book ends on a high note of noble behavior, where most people do their best and not their worst, and if that's escapist, I'm all for escapes.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Nov 5 2016, 8:24pm
Post #25 of 34
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JRRT's friend CS Lewis wrote some interesting things about God and time
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in his book Mere Christianity. What I remember best is comparing God to an author; He can open the book to any page and read or write focusing on whichever character He chooses to, whenever and as often as He chooses. Characters may be stuck in a linear existence of sequential pages, but the author has complete freedom to enter the book at any point he chooses.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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