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enanito
Rohan
Oct 28 2016, 3:43am
Post #1 of 49
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** The Scouring of the Shire ** 3) Sharky
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Surprisingly, we end the chapter with the death of the former Head of the White Council, a once-mighty Maia, at the hands of the pitiful creature he thought he had total power over. The One Ring had dominated Gollum and made him into what he had become, one who loved and hated and feared and worshipped and craved and loathed it. So it’s interesting to see the parallel with Saruman and Grima Wormtongue, and how both creations killed their creator.
A Where’s Gandalf?
Mention has been made during the Read-Through regarding why Gandalf disengages himself from M.E. post One-Ring-Destruction, but what about his disengagement from Saruman post-Orthanc? Sure his charge towards M.E. is complete, but Curunír is a fellow Maia. Not my brother’s keeper? Had he lost hope?
And does Gandalf feel no special attachment either towards Radagast or our lost Blue Wizards? Since he’s on the fast-track back to Valinor, is it a case of “It’s been nice, but not that nice, really”?
B. Gandalf as a caretaker
“Not he! When his tools have done their task he drops them. But you must go dangling after him, dawdling and talking, and riding round twice as far as you needed”
Once again Saruman’s critiques of Gandalf contain some measure of truth. People look to Gandalf for guidance and trust him to have their best interests in mind, and he often gives credence that this is indeed the case. But in spite of the daily suffering of the Shire people, Gandalf has taken quite a while to get the hobbits back to help them out. If they had a palantir handy and saw an updated vision of the state of Shire affairs, I can’t imagine they’d dangle and dawdle and talk and ride as they did!
Not even a “BTW guys, there’s a corrupted Maia waiting for you, just in case that matters…”
Is Saruman’s critique partially true? Or just purposefully portraying an incorrect interpretation of Gandalf’s behavior?
C.Take me to you leader
Seems most if not all the hobbits had never seen Saruman, yet knew that ‘Sharkey’ was in town and in control. What if Sharkey actually didn’t exist and was just an invention, with the hobbits none-the-wiser. How long could this deception continue? And would Hobbits be more inclined than others to simply go-along with the program, and assume Sharkey must exist somewhere behind closed doors?
I’m sure we have lots of real-world examples of imaginary leaders used by others to prop up their own power. Anyone have a favorite example or two to share?
D. Brave little hobbits
Our hobbits have been very brave and all grown-up, standing up to tyranny and raising the Shire to action. Yet it was all without knowing it was Saruman who they would face down at Bag End.
If they had known in Bree that Saruman sat waiting for them, would they have been just as brave? What would have changed? What would have stayed the same?
E. Saruman’s end-game?
Appendix B implies Saruman was not originally headed directly to the Shire post-Isengard, and Saruman himself indicates as much in this chapter. Where might he have been going if not to his sole remaining power base? Just “anywhere as long as it was away from Gondor”?
Sure he wanted to make as much mischief as possible, but did he just kind of make things up as they went along? No grand plan?
Did he expect Gandalf to return w/Hobbits? Or that the 4 Hobbits would win the day and evict him?
F. Why kill Frodo?
What would killing Frodo accomplish? The hobbits and the Shire would return to life as normal, assuredly.
What personal grudge could Saruman have against Frodo, as they had never crossed paths till now? After all, Frodo hadn’t even destroyed the Ring, so he couldn’t really be blamed for that.
Was it to spite Gandalf? Didn’t Saruman state that Gandalf didn’t truly care about Frodo, in which case would it really affect him?
If Frodo died, did Saruman expect to survive a public lynching or a flurry of arrows from the hobbits? (he was not immortal, as we soon discover)
G. A strange look in his eyes of mingled wonder and respect and hatred
Frodo’s compassion and mercy sure strike a chord inside Saruman, don’t they? Did Saruman have a death-wish, hoping to spread a poison and curse, and thus he was frustrated because that was taken away? Or did Saruman once possess these same noble attributes, and he cannot accept that a lowly creature such as a Halfling might have become what he once was?
Anything particular about Saruman’s death occurring right outside Bag End? Just a nice tying-up of how the story began at the same place? Or is there a deeper meaning?
H. How much good was left in Saruman?
When Sauron is finally destroyed, his spirit ends as a threatening hand reaching toward the West.
However, at Saruman’s end, his spirit wavers, looking to the West, and sighs as it dissolves into nothingness. Did Saruman truly wish for redemption?
I. Is there anyone truly evil in M.E. besides Sauron?
The Nazgûl were once great kings who were then corrupted. Maybe all goodness had left them, but weren’t they once not-so-bad?
Saruman, I believe, was torn by goodness, as was Wormtongue.
The Easterners and Southerners are eternal foes of Gondor, but not because they’re evil bad wicked scum-of-the-earth
Orcs, balrogs (both with and without wings), and other beast-like creatures don’t count
The real world has people we’d consider pure evil. Does Tolkien simply shade everything grey in M.E.? Or in the real world, do even the most truly evil people have some grey, maybe a love for their children, or a comradery with oath-bound friends, etc., that we don’t see?
Now at last we’re ready for The End. As we prepare to finally see the Grey Havens, any other thoughts to add on concerning Tolkien’s climatic scene with Frodo and Saruman the Wise, Saruman Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 28 2016, 7:25am
Post #2 of 49
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Mention has been made during the Read-Through regarding why Gandalf disengages himself from M.E. post One-Ring-Destruction, but what about his disengagement from Saruman post-Orthanc? Sure his charge towards M.E. is complete, but Curunír is a fellow Maia. Not my brother’s keeper? Had he lost hope?
And does Gandalf feel no special attachment either towards Radagast or our lost Blue Wizards? Since he’s on the fast-track back to Valinor, is it a case of “It’s been nice, but not that nice, really”?
Saruman was offered help and doubtless Gandalf would extend his hand again if asked. But the former White Wizard is responsible for his own decisions and his own fate.
Gandalf is not leaving Middle-earth for a couple more years yet. He might indeed be investigating the seeming disappearance of Radagast or looking into what has become of the rest of the Istari. Tolkien doesn't keep us apprised of the wizard's activities during this period.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 28 2016, 2:36pm
Post #3 of 49
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Back to Gandalf as in The Hobbit?
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Gandalf goes off at key times in The Hobbit, on unspecified 'other business'. There's the idea that he's leaving his protegees the challenge and the honour of sorting out their own problems. Clearly this works well for Tolkien, as Gandalf might resolve things too easily!
For much of LOTR, the stakes have been so high that it would have been incredible for Gandalf to wander off to do ...whatever. Tolkien has had to come up with specific good reasons (imprisonment and then death) why Gandalf is not on the scene.
So I have this feeling that Gandalf is reverting (regressing?) to more like his TH self.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 28 2016, 2:44pm
Post #4 of 49
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Gandalf's mission is complete.
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Sauron is defeated, the NIne vanquished. Gandalf realizes that the four Hobbits are now well-equipped to set the Shire to rights. He can see to other loose ends such as the whereabouts of Radagast.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 28 2016, 3:20pm
Post #5 of 49
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What personal grudge could Saruman have against Frodo?
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What personal grudge could Saruman have against Frodo, as they had never crossed paths till now?
I don't know whether Saruman knew which hobbit Frodo was when he was overtaken by Gandalf' party. Frodo says one line to him, and then the rest of the dialogue is with Merry. So while technically they have crossed paths, you're right in every important sense - Saruman knows Frodo as a 'chess piece' in the schemes he once had, not as a person.
Saruman does not come across as a very rational character at this stage. So to an extent he's a generally angry person lashing out at any target that seems appropriate. But I see his actions towards Frodo as motivated by Envy.
First, envy at Bilbo and Frodo's luck'. Frodo ended up with the Ring apparently by chance - perhaps a sore point to those who think they were more entitled? I'm imagining that Saruman has had thoughts like those of the crazed Boromir ('If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Númenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!')
Of course Gandalf might question whether there is such as thing as chance in this regard. But I suppose that makes it worse for Saruman. I think he intended to be the main man of the wizards' effort to counter Sauron, and Sauron's characteristic creation, the Rings of Power. Hence all that study of Ring-lore - originally, I think, so as to understand how best to defeat Sauron (without just supplanting him). So either Saruman's long years of study have been valueless because of mere luck, or -perhaps worse- he's already been judged as the opposite to Frodo (meant NOT to find the Ring).
Perhaps there's also a kind of professional pique - when the crisis that Saruman trained for came, he couldn't cope with it, but a bunch of amateurs did.
Perhaps this further triggers Saruman's excessive pride - was he a dupe all along - fooled by some trick of the Valar?
I don't know whether Saruman knows the details of what happened on Mount Doom. But even if he doesn't know or suspect that Frodo can't have just tossed the Ring away, Saruman might envy Frodo for being able to try? This of course assumes that Saruman - at some level at least - feels his failure and is in denial about it. That would be one explanation for his apparently petty acts of revenge against Frodo and the Shire.
I think that Frodo's behaviour underlines all that even more - Frodo is wise and forgiving; the opposite to Saruman as the latter is consumed by hatred and revenge. I agree that trying to kill Frodo makes no rational sense. But I expect most of us have met people who feel that the only way they can pull themselves up is to drag others down?
These arguments assume, of course that there is still some 'good part' of Saruman, which now mostly acts to make the dominant evil part more angry. I think that's a workable reading, though one could also read it that Saruman is just evil now, and his motives need no more explanation than that. But I prefer thnking of him as a more complex character. I am reminded (perhaps Frodo is also reminded?) of Gandalf's comments about Gollum's original meeting with Bilbo, where Gollum was exposed to something that reminded him of his better days:
There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things. ‘But that, of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end –unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.’ Gandalf sighed. ‘Alas! there is little hope of that for him."
Shadow of the Past
One of the reasons I like this explanation is tat it seems to work with what happens after Saruman's death - the apparent questioning look to the West, before being scattered to the wind.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 28 2016, 5:38pm
Post #6 of 49
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Is anyone truly evil in Middle-earth?
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I like that this isn't a simple question, in Tolkien's book. Some fantasy authors like to arrange Good and Evil like two utterly opposite sides in a game of chess - they can only have a power relationship, win/lose, and the story is about which will win the battle. Tolkien is unusual (as far as I know) in having characters who are not deliberately or consciously evil, or evil for the sake of it (or because the author finds it convenient not to have t explain their motives). Rather, they believe they are doing the best they can. That's far scarier, because aren't we all capable of being like that?
I saw that point put engagingly in an interview with the Astronaut, Captain Alan Bean:
I went to an astronaut reunion here in Houston last week, and some of 'em would try to one-up you when they hadn't seen you in three years. You know? That's the way they are. They want to ...they want to ...give you a hassle. It's just them. It's just the way it is. And I feel bad for them, kinda. But they like it. On their deathbed, they're going to feel that that's the way the game is played. Everybody on their deathbed thinks that they did the best they could. Adolf Hitler thought that he did the best he could. I've read that he said the German people let him down, they didn't have the intensity and devotion that was required. And that allowed him to flood the subways when they were in there, to stop the Russians, and feel justified doing it. But in my philosophy, which I've read a lot though I never took it, everybody feels they did the best they could under the circumstances. And so we have to be careful.
Cpt Alan Bean, Apollo 12 and Skylab Astronaut, interviewed in "Moondust : In Search of the Men Who Fell to Earth" by Andrew Smith
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 28 2016, 5:39pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 28 2016, 6:31pm
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That doesn't seem like a good fit to Gandalf's closing words
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Last seen, he was off to unload centuries of responsibility into the black hole of wisdom that is Tom Bombadil.
As you say, he's no longer fighting Sauron. He's, practically speaking, no longer an Istari in the sense of having that mission. Why waste time 'looking for Radagast', who can presumably take care of himself? And of course, we have no reason to believe that Radagast is 'missing' in any case. He may be missing to us readers who feel he is an unexplained or underused 'piece' in the great game of the War of the Ring. But Tolkien gives us no sense of that in his own writing about the Brown Wizard, in the book. In one letter, he does speculate that Radagast let his mission slip, but even that doesn't seem to justify giving Gandalf the job of tying him up like a loose end to a plot that, in the story, doesn't exist.
I tend to go with NoWiz's idea that Gandalf in some sense now reverts to his 'Hobbit' self, which was a lot more vague and undirected. In my mind, I could see him going back to his workshop in Dale and perfecting fireworks that are fun to set off even when the Ring of Fire has lost its oomph.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 28 2016, 7:03pm
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That doesn't seem like a good fit to Gandalf's closing words
Last seen, he was off to unload centuries of responsibility into the black hole of wisdom that is Tom Bombadil.
Yes, Gandalf parted from the hobbits "racing towards the Barrow-downs like a wind from the North" on the back of Shadowfax. That makes it seem like the old wizard may have been in some haste, perhaps not just eager to tell Bombadil about the Ents but also wanting to consult with him on other matters.
Gandalf and Radagast were arguably as much friends as colleagues, and given Saruman's actions during the War of the Ring, Gandalf had good reason to be concerned about the absence of the Brown Wizard. Tom might have had some word about Radagast or might at least be able to provide some insight into his disappearance.
You write of Gandalf reverting to type. Well, he was always one to show concern for his friends. And he also had a well-earned reputation for meddling, not letting things lie, whether he was inciting young hobbits into mad adventures (including Bilbo's mother and her sisters?) or injecting his own agenda into the quest of a certain Thorin Oakenshield. Looking into Radagast's whereabouts seems completely in character for Gandalf. Even investigating the activities and/or fates of the two Blue Wizards could be said to be in his wheelhouse; a corrupted Istari could easily become a new Dark Lord, beginning the cycle of evil all over again.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 28 2016, 7:04pm)
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InTheChair
Rohan
Oct 28 2016, 7:38pm
Post #9 of 49
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but what about his disengagement from Saruman post-Orthanc? Sure his charge towards M.E. is complete, but Curunír is a fellow Maia. Not my brother’s keeper? Had he lost hope?
We are not told if Gandalf broke Sarumans staff on his own judgement or if he was carrying out the verdict of some higher authority. There's the posibility that once Gandalf had thrown Saruman out of he order he no longer felt any responsibility neither for him nor towards him. He might have offered friendship had Saruman been interested, but he wouldn't go out of his way to set Saruman right unless Saruman himself worked for it.
And does Gandalf feel no special attachment either towards Radagast
Sure he does. But Radagat hasn't done anything that would merit intervention from Gandalf. They are or were friends, even after Gandalf leaves on the ships.
‘Sharkey’ was in town and in control.
Sharkey is one of those peculiar translation things. Noted to probably derive from Orkish Sharku(?), so not Westron bur still given an English representation, not in meaning but sound. Don't where it fit in. Brandywine for Baranduin is of a similar mode, as is most of the English names of the Hobbits.
Where might he have been going if not to his sole remaining power base? Just “anywhere as long as it was away from Gondor”?
Saruman maybe didn't know himself at first. Leaving Orthanc his only road was north-west or he would end up in Rohan of Fangorn. If he hadn't stopped in the shire maybe could have holed up far north in Angmar?
What personal grudge could Saruman have against Frodo, as they had never crossed paths till now? After all, Frodo hadn’t even destroyed the Ring, so he couldn’t really be blamed for that.
Saruman though he had never seen it was yet consumed by desire for that ring. Odd thing. Frodo had not only possessed the ring, but carried it all the way to Mordor enabling it's destruction and with that the destruction of all of Sarumans hopes, and Frodo had also outright claimed the ring for his own, an event that I do not know if Saruman registered or not. Not sure how he could have beeing bereft of his Palantir, but the ring works in mysterious ways. Furhtermore Frodo had put his friendship and faith in Gandalf, Sarumans lesser colleague, and in the end his usurper, from Sarumans point of view. With all that I think Saruman felt that Frodos death might give him some revenge.
did Saruman once possess these same noble attributes, and he cannot accept that a lowly creature such as a Halfling might have become what he once was?
He would certainly on instictive level have recognized the attributes that he himself once claimed. Not sure if he possessed them.
It is curious that Saruman should tell Frodo he has grown. Saruman did not know the old Frodo. He has met him only once on the road after the major character arcs were fulfilled. Maybe Saruman was referring to Frodos nature growing outside the bounds of his incarnate origins or something? Don't really know. Or possibly again the ring had worked in mysterious ways.
Is there anyone truly evil in M.E. besides Sauron?
Probably few who would embody it the way Sauron managed. The big spiders are not considered handsome by Tolkien, but I don't know if that means one can call them truly evil.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Oct 28 2016, 7:41pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 29 2016, 8:17am
Post #10 of 49
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What, after all, does Saruman know about the destruction of the Ring?
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He hasn't had his palantír since well before. He thought his orcs had captured the Ringbearer, but he was wrong. Gandalf, by casting him out of their "order" and breaking his staff, had removed most of his remaining power except for his persuasive voice. I can easily imagine Saruman was still capable of feeling a "disturbance in the Force" when the Ring was destroyed, but how would he associate Frodo with that?
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InTheChair
Rohan
Oct 29 2016, 11:33am
Post #11 of 49
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Gandalf spoke to Frodo from afar, when Frodo wore the ring on Amon Hen. Take it off fool. Gandalf can tell somehow. Saruman is of a similar nature to Gandalf, and the claiming of the ring is a significant ring-event, and one that is closely connected with the purpose Saruman came to ME for.. Proves nothing, but it's not at all impossible that Saruman did know Frodo claimed the ring and that it was later destroyed. The last he would have found out through other channels, such as Treebeard anyway.
Wonder which event most triggered Sarumans decision to leave Isegard?
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Oct 29 2016, 11:35am)
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 29 2016, 12:07pm
Post #12 of 49
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I. Is there anyone truly evil in M.E. besides Sauron?
The Nazgûl were once great kings who were then corrupted. Maybe all goodness had left them, but weren’t they once not-so-bad?
Sauron was also "not-so-bad" to begin with - until Morgoth corrupted him. So one could also argue Sauron is not truly evil.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 29 2016, 12:10pm
Post #13 of 49
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Yes, Gandalf parted from the hobbits "racing towards the Barrow-downs like a wind from the North" on the back of Shadowfax. That makes it seem like the old wizard may have been in some haste, perhaps not just eager to tell Bombadil about the Ents but also wanting to consult with him on other matters.
I like to think Shadowfax would have "raced" just for the pure joy of it, completely effortlessly. He is, after all, the Lord of the Mearas: after weeks having to go at the same pace as the hobbit's ponies, a good run must have felt very good
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 29 2016, 12:14pm
Post #14 of 49
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Sharkey is one of those peculiar translation things. Noted to probably derive from Orkish Sharku(?), so not Westron but still given an English representation, not in meaning but sound. Don't where it fit in. Brandywine for Baranduin is of a similar mode, as is most of the English names of the Hobbits.
If I remember correctly, Sharkey was given an English representation (or possibly Sharkey was coincidently sufficiently anglicised already) because "Sharkey" was what the hobbits (and ruffians) would have called him, and would have said it in Westron, thus meriting a anglicisation.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 29 2016, 1:02pm
Post #15 of 49
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I like to think Shadowfax would have "raced" just for the pure joy of it, completely effortlessly. He is, after all, the Lord of the Mearas: after weeks having to go at the same pace as the hobbit's ponies, a good run must have felt very good
You could be right, which is why I qualified my statement concerning Gandalf's haste. Even so, he might have had a number of different reasons for visiting with Bombadil at least one of which might have involved the missing Radagast.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 29 2016, 1:11pm
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When Saruman encounters Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and the others, I think his comments imply he knows the Three Rings are now powerless, which in turn implies he knows that the One Ring is destroyed. How he knows this is unclear (that Treebeard told him seems as good a theory as any).
Here's the passage I'm inferring from:
"For a moment his eyes kindled. ‘Go!’ he said. ‘I did not spend long study on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it. And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled down your own house when you destroyed mine. And now, what ship will bear you back across so wide a sea?’"
Many Partings.
Come to think of it, if Saruman didn't know, he'd presumably assume that someone had used the Ring (as he would have done) & so he would have been sensible to try and escape the new Ringlord.
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 29 2016, 1:15pm)
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Morthoron
Gondor
Oct 29 2016, 2:40pm
Post #17 of 49
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A Where’s Gandalf? and B. Gandalf as a caretaker:
A wizard arrives precisely when he means to.
Sorry for interjecting a movie meme, but it seems pertinent in this instance. The Lord of the Rings is, among other things, a coming-of-age story for the hobbits. By the end of the three books they have grown from carefree, self-indulgent halflings to formidable warriors and wily strategists, full-ready to assume leadership roles (which three of them eventually do, save for Frodo).
This leads me to believe that Gandalf stayed away on purpose. There was enough news from Bree regarding "newcomers and gangrels" coming up from the south along the Greenway and killing some Breelanders ("killed dead" as Butterbur would say).
In Homeward Bound Gandalf himself says "Nearly all lands have been disturbed these days, very disturbed," and Butterbur warns "that all is not well in the Shire neither." So Gandalf, who suddenly didn't completely lose the sense of prescience that sustained him throughout the books, knew full well that the 4 hobbits were facing trouble, but he let them go alone.
Why? Because the hobbits had been trained in fire throughout the story for this test, and Gandalf deemed them ready to assert their own minds and courage to overcome whatever they faced in the Shire. This was their fight, and did not need the intrusion of wizards or kings to complete the task.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Oct 29 2016, 2:46pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 29 2016, 5:51pm
Post #18 of 49
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Is it right for Gandalf to set the hobbits a test? (This is beginning to puzzle me)
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It seems that he's held back some information that the hobbits might have found helpful - wouldn't it have been only friendly to warn them clearly what they were riding into?
If it's a test, what's it for: what is the reward for passing, or the penalty for failing? And what right does Gandalf have to go around setting tests for people, anyway?
I'm also wondering whether Gandalf is assessing this 'test'. Is he spending some time round at Tom's partly so that he finds out whether the hobbits succeed (and possibly so that he can intervene if they can't manage)?
As a reader of the story it looks to me as if Tolkien desperately wants Gandalf out of the way so that the struggle to expel Sharkey and the Ruffians is dramatic, rather than a walkover. Currently I'm not really satisfied by how Tolkien has done it.
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Morthoron
Gondor
Oct 29 2016, 7:03pm
Post #19 of 49
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I think Tolkien sets up things beautifully. A victory by the hobbits against Sharkey and his men would ring hollow if Gandalf intervened. Come on now, would Sharkey's men even stand up against Gandalf the White manifesting all his power and wielding Glamdring? No, Harry and the boys are bullies and would wilt against a supernatural power far beyond them.
But the time of the Istari and High Elves wielding Rings of Power against an immortal Dark Lord are over. Gandalf was right not to intervene because, as I stated earlier, the 4 hobbits are war veterans returning home to find greedy usurpers pushing around a peaceful native population unused to martial pursuits.
And Tolkien further turned a wonderful narrative card to have Frodo become the pacifist of sorts, refusing to take up arms against other hobbits and letting his three comrades control the action. Frodo even shows mercy to Saruman (which makes Sharkey's End even more satisfying). And Frodo becomes the forgotten hero, more important than all the rest but unrecognized in his own country.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 29 2016, 8:06pm
Post #20 of 49
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Thanks for helping me -- but now you could use my help, and I'm outta here
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I just keep thinking I would have liked it more if Gandalf had a Reason to leave the four hobbits to their own devices. Like, he felt an urgency to go find the other Istari, since he did not know how long that might take and his time in M.E. was short. Or a different explanation of how he felt that not only were they prepared to save their own people, that Gandalf also felt it would be Wrong for him to intervene (personally I don't much like the explanation he gives). Etc, but that's just me.
As is, he takes his own sweet time (as Saruman insinuates), then out of the blue ditches the hobbits. Sure the hobbits were now capable, but just because they're capable, why not help anyways? So what if it's "overkill", using Gandalf's powers to free them? (sure from a story pov it wouldn't be good, but if I was the hobbits I'd want as much firepower as possible, who cares!)
I understand that Gandalf cannot be entirely understood and can be inscrutable.
But wouldn't it be a nice payback for everything he put the hobbits through (Bilbo included), all in order to achieve his grand objective of defeating Sauron? Almost dying multiple times, leaving family and friends for over a year, and one of them experiencing a trauma that could only be healed by traveling to the Undying Lands. Now that all his chess pieces had played their part for him, couldn't he return the favor and help them out in what they needed?
That said I do like it that the hobbits save the day on their own, it just seems a bit 'forced' as written.
(This post was edited by enanito on Oct 29 2016, 8:09pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Oct 29 2016, 10:38pm
Post #22 of 49
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What do we REALLY expect from Gandalf? A thought…
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How heroic must he be and how many times must he be so?
As a reader of the story it looks to me as if Tolkien desperately wants Gandalf out of the way so that the struggle to expel Sharkey and the Ruffians is dramatic, rather than a walkover. Currently I'm not really satisfied by how Tolkien has done it.
Gandalf was a messenger …sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him…
After some 2,000 years of struggle he had at this point accomplished his raison d'être quite well I should think. Well done!
As he said in “Homeward Bound”:
“My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends you will need no help. You are grown up now … and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.” Even knowing there was likely trouble in the Shire I never had a problem with his confidence in the four Hobbit’s ability to unite the good Hobbits of the Shire and clean house. Need he, at this point, be involved in every jot and tittle?
I never had a problem with his leaving the Hobbits (he left Aragorn to take care of the leftovers, he left a troubled Bree to its own, and so forth). Should he continue on with the Hobbits and use his inestimable powers would this not take away from a lesson the Shire Hobbits needed to learn: “There will not always be a Knight in Shining Armor (or wizard) to ‘set things to right’.” His task is done and a short period of ‘down time’ is long overdue.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Meneldor
Valinor
Oct 29 2016, 10:48pm
Post #23 of 49
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As I see it, the test wasn't so much to see if the hobbits would pass it or not, as it was to show the hobbits that they could pass it. They're all grown up now, they don't need Uncle Gandalf watching over them and pulling their bacon out of the fire, and they need to learn that they are fully capable of dealing with their own troubles. After all, Gandalf knows he won't be around much longer. The hobbits have to not only be capable of standing on their own, they also have to know they are capable. It's time for Gandalf to let go and let them be.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Morthoron
Gondor
Oct 29 2016, 11:21pm
Post #24 of 49
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Bracegirdle stated it succinctly enough...
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and found the perfect quote as an exclamation:
“My time is over: it is no longer my task to set things to rights, nor to help folk to do so. And as for you, my dear friends you will need no help. You are grown up now … and I have no longer any fear at all for any of you.”
It is the 4th Age now, the Time of Man (and by extension, Hobbits). You must make your own way without supernatural aid through the snares and deceptions of the wide world. And Saruman's voice, dimmed to a crow-like squawk but still potent, is the last of those treacherous impediments of a previous Age to overcome.
Gandalf's aid was not needed, and it would have merely muddled the story if it were added. The hobbits needed to solve their own problems, and they did quite effectively.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Oct 29 2016, 11:21pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 30 2016, 3:14am
Post #25 of 49
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If Gandalf had gone off on a mission...
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...to find Blue Wizards or anything else, we'd want to know how it turned out, wouldn't we? Tolkien needed to get him out of the way so we could see the Hobbits come into their own, and did so in a way that leaves us with an enigma we already had, rather than creating a new one.
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