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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
...not so easily forsaken

lionoferebor
Rohan


Oct 19 2016, 12:35pm

Post #1 of 19 (2202 views)
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...not so easily forsaken Can't Post

In BOFA, Thranduil says to Bard (in reference to the Gems of Lasgalen): The heirlooms of my house are not so easily forsaken.

Keep in mind, Thranduil is seen leading his army to Erebor in AUJ only to abandon their mission when they see Smaug sacking the Mountain. Further more in DOS he says to Thorin: Do not speak to ME of dragon fire! I know its wrath and ruin! I have faced the great serpents of the north! Both of these moments indicates to me that, most likely, Thranduil has not attempted to reclaim his Gems since Smaug's occupation of Erebor. (There is still the chance he may have, but I doubt it).

So along come the Dwarves, who chase Smaug out of the Mountain and now Thranduil sees his opportunity. Can't blame him. After all, when opportunity knocks...take it.

I wonder, had the Dwarves not reclaimed Erebor, would Thranduil eventually, over time, made an attempt to take back his Gems or would he had left them in the clutches of Smaug?

For the sake of this discussion (and for kicks and giggles), let's pretend Smaug still took Erebor but the Dwarves never attempted to reclaim the Mountain. Do you think Thranduil would have attempted to take back his Gems or would he have foresaken them?


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 19 2016, 1:06pm

Post #2 of 19 (2140 views)
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Hmmm... well..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think he would ever have launched an assault on the Mountain. When faced with external danger his instinct seems to be to raise the drawbridge, shut the borders and keep his own realm safe. He doesn't want to risk his people being killed in battle because he trusts that their immortality is enough to outlive most of the dangers. Besdies, it would be a shame to risk tangling the hair... Wink

So, would he forsake the necklace? No way. He just knows it's safe where it is for the moment (until those pesky dwarves come along). Assuming dragons aren't immortal, if Thorin hadn't come along he might at some time in the future have sent someone - a burglar, perhaps - to scout around and check that Smaug was still alive.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 19 2016, 2:05pm

Post #3 of 19 (2125 views)
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Elves are patient [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduil could expect to easily out-live even Smaug. If the dragon had gone unseen for much longer (another 50 years? 100 years?) he might have been tempted to see if old Smaug was dead or fled.

By the way, I agree that when the Wood-elves were marching on Erebor in the prologue, Thranduil was probably intending to force the issue of the gems and he wasn't expecting the attack of the dragon.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


NManfredi
Rivendell


Oct 19 2016, 8:51pm

Post #4 of 19 (2058 views)
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In my view, he would have grasped them and returned to his kingdom if possible [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that PJ's Thranduil would definitely have attempted to claim back what was "rightfully his"(? (even though none of us could tell if he was right, because both Elves and Dwarves told different tales –great move by PJ btw and reminded me of the Silmarillion).

I too believe, as Otaku-sempai said, that he would have waited to outlive Smaug, but most probably he would have waited until someone killed Smaug and then ventured with an army claiming for his share to be paid back immediately. I don't think he would have confronted Smaug by himself, because he seems to be blatantly upset and in pain while hearing"dragon fire" from Thorin.

Anyhow, if Laketowners would still be alive, then I believe he would have fought for them, no doubt.

The way it all happened was amazing to me, anyway, and I thought the backstories for Thorin, Train, Thror and Thranduil and how they all connected was very good. I won't extend any longer because I'm treading off-topic.

"Is it not a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt for so small a thing? So small a thing! And I have seen it only for an instant in the house of Elrond! Could I not have a sight of it again?"


(This post was edited by NManfredi on Oct 19 2016, 8:56pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 19 2016, 9:02pm

Post #5 of 19 (2056 views)
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Thranduil's march in the prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm inclined to agree that Thranduil would just wait out the dragon, and then go get his necklace. But as for the prologue, I always thought Thranduil was responding to Dale's call for help - Dale was blowing horns in the prologue, which like I said I figured was a call for help. I don't believe Thranduil summoned his army to attack Erebor at the very moment the dragon attacked. If he were going to do that he would have done it long ago, shortly after Thror refused to give up the gems. I realize the movie doesn't represent time very well, but the prologue says "Slowly the days turned sour....", which to me implies that quite a bit of time passed between the two events. He brought aid to the Laketowners, so I think he also would have tried to help the people of Dale. He's not such a bad guySlySlySly




Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 19 2016, 9:30pm

Post #6 of 19 (2041 views)
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How long ago? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm inclined to agree that Thranduil would just wait out the dragon, and then go get his necklace. But as for the prologue, I always thought Thranduil was responding to Dale's call for help - Dale was blowing horns in the prologue, which like I said I figured was a call for help. I don't believe Thranduil summoned his army to attack Erebor at the very moment the dragon attacked. If he were going to do that he would have done it long ago, shortly after Thror refused to give up the gems. I realize the movie doesn't represent time very well, but the prologue says "Slowly the days turned sour....", which to me implies that quite a bit of time passed between the two events. He brought aid to the Laketowners, so I think he also would have tried to help the people of Dale. He's not such a bad guy


How much earlier could it have been when Thror refused to return the Gems to the Elvenking? A year? Two? Less? Thorin was there and he did not appear to be much younger than he was when Smaug came to Erebor.

And the idea that Thranduil could have arrived at Erebor in response to the dragon's attack while the Dwarves were still fleeing the Mountain seems ludicrous. First, he has to muster his army and then get it to Erebor. Realistically, it should have taken one day just to get ready and another three to reach Dale and the Mountain. Even with Peter Jackson cheating with time and distance, it ought to have taken a couple of days or more. Also, why march all the way there in order to help, only to turn back at the last moment? And then even deny the survivors any aid or comfort? No, that theory doesn't wash with me. This was Thranduil at his worst.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 19 2016, 9:32pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 19 2016, 9:42pm

Post #7 of 19 (2025 views)
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How long? [In reply to] Can't Post

"How much earlier could it have been when Thror refused to return the Gems to the Elvenking? A year? Two? Less? Thorin was there and he did not appear to be much younger than he was when Smaug came to Erebor."


No, Thorin doesn't look much older, but I still think a long time had passed - certainly enough time for Thranduil to have raised an army to attack Erebor IF he'd been inclined to do so. As for your second question, I don't lose much sleep over the time differential - it is a movie after all, and we've both discussed that PJ compresses time a great deal in the movie. In fact, it doesn't even look like Esgaroth is all that far from Mirkwood in the movie - didn't it take a day or so just for the barrels to be gathered up in the book? My point being, I think the ONLY reason Thranduil would have been there was to respond to Dale's request for help - it's not like the Dwarves rang that big bell or anything, so how else would Thranduil hear about the attack?


"Also, why march all the way there in order to help, only to turn back at the last moment? And then even deny the survivors any aid or comfort?"


Thranduil refused to help the Dwarves; we have no idea whether he helped the survivors of Dale or not. The movie simply didn't show that. Since it's not shown, I have no reason to believe he didn't help the survivors of Dale. I admit, I'm reading what I want into this, but as I said, since it's not shown there's no reason to believe Thranduil turned his back on Dale.



Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association

(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on Oct 19 2016, 9:43pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 19 2016, 9:58pm

Post #8 of 19 (2016 views)
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Thranduil at Erebor. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
No, Thorin doesn't look much older, but I still think a long time had passed - certainly enough time for Thranduil to have raised an army to attack Erebor IF he'd been inclined to do so. As for your second question, I don't lose much sleep over the time differential - it is a movie after all, and we've both discussed that PJ compresses time a great deal in the movie. In fact, it doesn't even look like Esgaroth is all that far from Mirkwood in the movie - didn't it take a day or so just for the barrels to be gathered up in the book? My point being, I think the ONLY reason Thranduil would have been there was to respond to Dale's request for help - it's not like the Dwarves rang that big bell or anything, so how else would Thranduil hear about the attack?


To me, 'it's just a movie' is not an acceptable excuse for sloppy plotting. Yes, Thranduil had plenty of time to raise his army if he wanted to attack Erebor. Not so much if he was responding to a call for aid. To arrive when he did, it seems to me that he would have had to start before the dragon even attacked Dale. Oh, and I would say that the Forest River in the films probably flows much faster than it did in the book for much of its course, getting the company to Esgaroth faster. For the record, Thranduil's Halls seem to be about 30 miles or so from Erebor, while Erebor is perhaps a little over 20 miles from Lake-town.


In Reply To
Thranduil refused to help the Dwarves; we have no idea whether he helped the survivors of Dale or not. The movie simply didn't show that. Since it's not shown, I have no reason to believe he didn't help the survivors of Dale. I admit, I'm reading what I want into this, but as I said, since it's not shown there's no reason to believe Thranduil turned his back on Dale.


That's just it. Thranduil shows up at Erebor. We have no idea whether or not he rendered aid to Dale, but that is not the point. He showed at Erebor and then did nothing to help. It was a jerk move.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 19 2016, 10:11pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 19 2016, 10:27pm

Post #9 of 19 (1994 views)
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Is he at Erebor, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

I assumed he was on the heights they refer to as 'the overlook', where later thorin & co were supposed to wait for Gandalf and didn't. If so, then they would be just above Dale, which in the film at least is not very far from Erebor, so Kilidoescartwheels theory would work.

In fact, forget my first question. If Thranduil is overlooking Erebor he's also near Dale and could be on his way to help.

For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 19 2016, 10:39pm

Post #10 of 19 (1989 views)
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We will have to disagree. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don't think that Thranduil could have arrived at Dale/Erebor at that point in time if he was responding to Smaug's attack. I'm convinced he was after his gems. The proof is his turning his back on the plight of the Dwarves. Surely he wasn't too afraid of reprisals from Smaug to even offer food and healing to Durin's Folk?

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


lionoferebor
Rohan


Oct 19 2016, 11:19pm

Post #11 of 19 (1988 views)
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Irrelevant [In reply to] Can't Post

As I see it, Smaug was the only thing standing between Thranduil and his jewels. Just as he could've taken the jewels back from the Dwarves at anytime (as you say), he could have attempted to take them back from Smaug at anytime as well. (He has the army for it). But he doesn't. Why? Because "he would not risk the lives of his people against the wrath of the dragon." Instead he waits for the problem to take care of itself.

This said, the reason Thranduil summoned his army to Erebor/Dale in the AUJ prologue is irrelevant in this scenario. Whatever the reason, point is he retreated the moment he saw Smaug. This is why I included this moment as an example.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 19 2016, 11:32pm

Post #12 of 19 (1975 views)
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Why would he? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why would Thranduil help the Dwarves, especially if as you say he was there for the gems. I think my scenario fits just as well, why would Thranduil help the Dwarves when he was responding to Dale's call for help? For that matter, why would Thorin expect help from him? The movie implies that they weren't exactly on speaking terms.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 19 2016, 11:45pm

Post #13 of 19 (1978 views)
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Irrelevant? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not trying to hijack the thread, but you mentioned the prologue which is why I commented on it. As previously mentioned, Thranduil is immortal so he'd probably just wait for the dragon to die.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


lionoferebor
Rohan


Oct 20 2016, 12:32am

Post #14 of 19 (1966 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Not trying to hijack the thread, but you mentioned the prologue which is why I commented on it.


Yes, I mentioned it, but not for the reasons you commented. As stated I used AUJ as an example because Thranduil retreats when he sees Smaug. The reason he marched his army to Erebor/Dale is irrelevant to my question. They could have been there for a picnic and a walk in the park, point is once they saw the dragon all plans were off.

As for highjacking the thread, the thought never crossed my mind. I was only trying to offer some insight into why I used AUJ as an example.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Oct 20 2016, 1:09am

Post #15 of 19 (1955 views)
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Exactly my point. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Why would Thranduil help the Dwarves, especially if as you say he was there for the gems. I think my scenario fits just as well, why would Thranduil help the Dwarves when he was responding to Dale's call for help? For that matter, why would Thorin expect help from him? The movie implies that they weren't exactly on speaking terms.


You've stated exactly why I think Thranduil wasn't there to help the Dwarves. His purpose, though, was not to aid the Men of Dale either, in my judgement. He might have helped them anyway, but we don't know that. We are left with the impression that the Elves simply turned around and returned to Mirkwood.

However, for clarity, it was the Elvenking and Thror who were in disagreement. Thorin was on the sidelines and it did not seem as though he necessarily agreed with his grandfather's actions. Thranduil blew an opportunity to get the young Dwarf-lord on his side.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


DainPig
Gondor


Oct 20 2016, 3:50am

Post #16 of 19 (1936 views)
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hmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

"As previously mentioned, Thranduil is immortal so he'd probably just wait for the dragon to die"

Or he would wait for the return of Thorin. Thranduil was probably aware of the "prophecy".



Ingwion
Lorien


Oct 20 2016, 4:38pm

Post #17 of 19 (1882 views)
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He has the army for it? [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all, although mustered hastily, the black arrow-less army which arrives at Dale in BOFA is not big enough, in my opinion, to tackle a fire-breathing dragon. And even if he had all the time in the world to muster his troops, even twice or thrice the size of the BOFA army, would it be enough when Smaug could kill hundreds with one breath?


It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.

It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien


Noria
Gondor

Oct 21 2016, 11:48am

Post #18 of 19 (1820 views)
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I agree with Otaki-sempai [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I just don't think that Thranduil could have arrived at Dale/Erebor at that point in time if he was responding to Smaug's attack. I'm convinced he was after his gems. The proof is his turning his back on the plight of the Dwarves. Surely he wasn't too afraid of reprisals from Smaug to even offer food and healing to Durin's Folk?


I have always thought that in the AUJ prologue Thranduil was coming to lay siege to Erebor but turned back when he saw the dragon, knowing that he was outmatched. He did nothing to help anybody, Man or Dwarf, as far as we know. It's the only interpretation that makes sense, IMO. It's also exactly what he was planning to do when he turned aside to help the people of Laketown after Smaug's death, as he freely admits.

That answers the OP's question too: I suspect that Thranduil would have bided his time and waited for an opportunity.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Oct 24 2016, 9:16am

Post #19 of 19 (1699 views)
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Agree with you on this...// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

 
 

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