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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Oct 15 2016, 7:46pm
Post #77 of 140
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Nice to have you here to defend the integrity of the talking purse!
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 15 2016, 7:56pm
Post #78 of 140
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we had an adaptation of Tolkien's story in which the talking purse would have fit in seamlessly. As well as many of the other more whimsical aspects of the book. Alas it was not to be. Instead we got an "R" rated grand finale and immature sexual innuendos.
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StingingFly
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 8:34pm
Post #79 of 140
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...I have to admit, I enjoyed Dain, especially in the extended edition.
I believe the grey areas are where directors and screenwriters can get creative and have a little fun. The book doesn't say much about Dain, but we do know he stubbornly tried to march his army right past the force of elves and men. After seeing the elves elevated in the previous films, it was great to see a dwarf fearlessly calling out their leader.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 8:46pm
Post #80 of 140
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The "Rhosgobel Rabbits" were whimsical enough ;) //
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It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 8:52pm
Post #81 of 140
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maybe suited his character, but it was still unnecessary.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 11:38pm
Post #82 of 140
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I just tend to get defensive about the book because it's my favorite of all of Tolkien's works. I have no issue with the characterization of the Dwarves in the movie (except not letting Dori take care of Bilbo), and I'm glad they all got at least one standout trait.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 16 2016, 4:20pm
Post #83 of 140
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And I will get slammed for this by the likes of wizzardly, but really, the book was so thin on characterization for most of the characters that I believe it gave Peter Jackson license to do whatever he wanted. I mean, most of the dwarves in the book didn't even get to talk, and they all looked alike except for different colored hoods. I'd say every one of the movie dwarves was a great improvement over that. I will agree that movie Thorin was very different than book Thorin, but IMO in a good way (not just because he's hot, but yeah I confess I liked that part, too). IMO book Thorin was just a jerk, whereas movie Thorin was someone I could actually care about. I also thought book Bard was a jerk, and like movie Bard much better. There's already been numerous discussions regarding Bard & Thranduil seeming to be flipped in the movie, with Bard wanting to avoid war instead of Thranduil. But I suppose wizzardly is right that Gollum is probably the closest characterization to the book, followed closely by Bilbo.
Almost forgot about your Radaghast & Alfrid question, hmm. Yes, Radaghast was silly but I'm re-reading "Fellowship" right now, and it seems he was something of a messenger so I guess that part is right. As for Alfrid, he was mostly annoying & there was way too much of him.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on Oct 16 2016, 4:22pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 16 2016, 4:30pm
Post #84 of 140
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that the majority of Hobbit movie fans don't care about faithfulness to the book, and would defend anything PJ decided to do with his adaptation, and some would even go so far as to say that Tolkien himself would probably have gone back and re-written his book with similar changes if he had the chance lol.
I DON'T care that much about faithfulness to the book, largely because I didn't think it was that great of a book. Most of the characters are barely realized. I'm currently re-reading the LoTR series, and well, it's just a superior book IMO. However, even that book drags in places, so I'd have to say I like PJ's adaptation better than the book as well.
Anyway, I agree that PJ's Thorin was a terrible adaptation of the character, however, none of the dwarves felt like Tolkien's dwarves to me. As far as best character I would say Gollum was the closest to the book.
As I said above, the dwarves in the book are so underdeveloped that how anyone can get any kind of "feeling" for them is beyond me. But I agree that Gollum was probably closest to the book - not sure that's a great thing, but there you are.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 4:48pm
Post #85 of 140
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...I'm not a big fan of Ori. He's not very dwarvish
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 6:59pm
Post #86 of 140
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No, they didn't all look alike
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I realize that's a popular excuse for the vast departure taken by the WETA artistic team for these films but nowhere does it say they were clones and other depictions -- including the graphic novel and Rankin-Bass animation -- showed they could vary in appearance and still look like Tolkienish dwarves instead of just short men. The book concentrated on Bilbo -- other sources had to expand on Thorin and Company -- but the change in focus is why I said it would have been more accurate to supertitle the trilogy as "The Quest for Erebor" or "Thorin and Company" instead of "The Hobbit". They did manage to get Balin's and Bombur's characters right and Bofur's portrayal would have been about right for Dori. Fili and Kili were supposed to have the sharpest eyes (although Balin was relied on more as the watchman -- perhaps he had more experience in what to look for even if they had sharper eyesight), others were more skilled in building fires, etc.
PJ had license to do what he wanted by virtue of having the license to do the film. Period, end of story. It doesn't mean that what he ended up doing was in character with the book or even made sense. Frequently it did and also frequently it didn't.
Thorin in the book was a proud heir to the legacy of Erebor shaped by centuries of existence and travail. He was cautious in revealing his plans and thoughts because of his past experience but he wasn't outright belligerent to Elrond or other Elves except when provoked (as in being tossed in Thranduil's gaol) -- which made sense because the Longbeards were historically friendly with Elves. Thorin in the movie was a racist horse's patoot with flowing locks and more beard than sense. Bard in the book was captain of the guard of Long Lake, a skilled bowman and fighter in the service of his town. Bard in the movie was a smuggler and anti-establishment proletarian with a chip on his shoulder over the idea that his ancestor screwed the pooch in fighting Smaug (who somehow had superior combat skills as well despite not being a part of the town guard or any other profession that would develop those skills). BTW, Bard in the book wasn't in favor of war either -- he tried to reason with Thorin at the gates (one of the scenes in BOTFA that was actually fairly true IMO to the book).
I have trouble with the idea of the dwarves or Bard understanding ravens being too silly to depict in the film but Radagast's many non-canon scenes being okay. Loved the actor, hated the role as scripted (but that's true of so many things in this trilogy).
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 9:05pm
Post #87 of 140
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He was cautious in revealing his plans and thoughts because of his past experience but he wasn't outright belligerent to Elrond or other Elves except when provoked (as in being tossed in Thranduil's gaol) -- which made sense because the Longbeards were historically friendly with Elves.
It was his impertinence towards Thranduil which made him cast Thorin into the prison. Thorin refused to speak to the elves because he didn't trust them
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Oct 16 2016, 9:57pm
Post #88 of 140
(695 views)
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Really? That's not what I remember
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"I realize that's a popular excuse for the vast departure taken by the WETA artistic team for these films but nowhere does it say they were clones and other depictions -- including the graphic novel and Rankin-Bass animation -- showed they could vary in appearance and still look like Tolkienish dwarves instead of just short men."
In fact, I can't remember what any of them looked like, just that they had different colored hoods. If Tolkien really did describe their appearance, it must have just been a couple of lines. Btw, I have that graphic novel and have trouble telling Thorin and Balin apart, so I can't say that their depiction is better than PJ's.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 16 2016, 10:04pm
Post #89 of 140
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Physically Tolkien identifies the dwarves by hood colour....
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..and hair colour. And age, to an extent, though we can only assume how that effect a dwarf's appearance. And Bombur's weight. I can't remember any other physical description.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Oct 17 2016, 12:45am
Post #90 of 140
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Tolkien does also say that Dori is the strongest of the Company, which may have been reflected in his physique, but we don't know for sure.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2016, 5:50am
Post #91 of 140
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love the book from childhood? What makes it so wonderful to you? I would be interested to know, just to widen my own perception of it...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2016, 6:09am
Post #92 of 140
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like his unexpected flamboyance!... And his song, although of course horrible, is catchy, LOL!!!  "Down-down-down in Goblin-town... Yeah!..." As funny as could possibly be done with such a topic and such a gigantic mess of a Goblin, I'd say.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2016, 6:31am
Post #93 of 140
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are so similar to those I expressed higher in the thread (see "To me, every single character"), about the book, the Dwarves etc, and that your post has elicited a second discussion just as had happened before with mine, on the very same topic all over again!  It's quite interesting and amusing which arguments and references have have been used on the two occasions by different persons...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 17 2016, 6:35am)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2016, 6:44am
Post #94 of 140
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quite a bit of fun, and I really thank Dain & PJ's script for that. Although I have quite a soft spot for this absolutely gorgeous Elf-King, Thranduil having shown himself repeatedly to be almost abusive of Gandalf, so arrogantly he behaves with him, it feels good to see him forced to drink some of his own medicine! 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Oct 17 2016, 6:47am)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Oct 17 2016, 6:55am
Post #95 of 140
(649 views)
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comparison is right on, I'd say, are as your other points as well... And the quote from Tolkien hits its mark just as the Black Arrow will when Bard finally releases it upon the astonished cat, er, dragon too sure of himself!!!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Oct 17 2016, 3:15pm
Post #96 of 140
(608 views)
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I only began to read Tolkien's works after seeing FOTR, when I was 12 or so.
I like the Hobbit because it's such a refreshing change of pace from all the weighty doom and gloom of the other books (especially Silmarillion). It's nice to know that there's some fun in Middle-Earth. The Hobbit is so goodnatured and gentle that I can't not love it.
I tend to prefer stories with a nice mix of serious and comedic elements, and that don't take themselves too seriously. It's the same reason I like Marvel movies but find DC a chore to watch.
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DainPig
Gondor
Oct 17 2016, 4:48pm
Post #97 of 140
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I think the problem was Mikael's acting and body. After reading the book, one expects to see a really huge man. In the film Beorn is just tall not really strong. Look at all the arts pre-films, there Beorn is gigantic.
Also as I've said before Mikael couldn't make the anger fance correctly.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 17 2016, 8:26pm
Post #98 of 140
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I think the problem was Mikael's acting and body. After reading the book, one expects to see a really huge man. In the film Beorn is just tall not really strong. Look at all the arts pre-films, there Beorn is gigantic.
Also as I've said before Mikael couldn't make the anger fance correctly.
I think that bodybuilders have given modern audiences an unfair preconception of what a physically strong man should look like. Such a man does not have to be covered in massive well-defined muscles like a Mister Universe contestant. Mikael Persbrandt looks fine in the part to me, make-up and prosthetics notwithstanding.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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DainPig
Gondor
Oct 17 2016, 8:52pm
Post #99 of 140
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I know exaclty what you're talking about
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Yeah real strong men are not like Arnold Schawargnegger (how do I spell his name?). They are mora like Hulk. Eh the thing I missed from Beorn were the muscles, where are the muscles? And as I've said, many illustration have showed a larger skingchanger.
(This post was edited by DainPig on Oct 17 2016, 8:53pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 17 2016, 9:05pm
Post #100 of 140
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"...many illustration have showed a larger skingchanger."
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Or a shorter Hobbit! 
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Great that your feelings
[
