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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 5:08pm
Post #1 of 76
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The Goblin-King
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I recently rewatched An Unexpected Journey EE, and was struck by how horribly out of place the Goblin-King's song was. In my opinion it's the worst part of TH trilogy. I also dislike his voice, the CGI, the design - it's, for me, one of the worst characters in the movies. But what does everyone else think?
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Oct 15 2016, 5:31pm
Post #2 of 76
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It is bad but in a good way, I think it was meant to be a bad song because the goblins can't sing ( Barry Humphries have said in an interview that the Great Goblin is tone-deaf).
But I love the Great Goblin voice, I think he is really funny.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 5:55pm
Post #3 of 76
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Because it feels as if it belongs in a musical. It feels as if the GK is singing and the music is computer-generated and added retrospectively. If we could have clearly seen a band of goblins playing instruments it would have been better.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 15 2016, 6:35pm
Post #4 of 76
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We did see a goblin band before he starts singing, if i remember right. At least in the EE.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 15 2016, 6:36pm
Post #5 of 76
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But we do see goblins playing instruments, dion't we?
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Thinking about it I'm picturing a scene looking upwards at a group of goblins on a hanging platform playing various bits of junk as it they were instruments.
I don't care for the song itself much either. The style and tune don't seem to fit as comfortably to me as the dwarf songs in Bag End. But the goblins in the book do sing, if not at that point then under the trees in the 'out of the frying pan' scene. And as I reckon it would have broken the mood completely if Azog & co had started singing, 'Fifteen birds in five fir trees' I'd rather the singing happened in Goblintown! The Goblin King himself is suitably repulsive, I think, and they struck a good balance between humour and menace in the Goblintown scenes.
Thinking of Azog singing reminds me of my favourite episode of Peckish Owl's brilliant 'Oakentoons' - 'True story (for orthodox fans)'
(The Azog bit comes up at the end)
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 6:54pm
Post #6 of 76
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But it's not as obvious as I wish it was. The song just takes me out of the movie. Even my dad, who hadn't watched TH before, and doesn't know a lot about Tolkien, commented that it was very out of place.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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DanielLB
Immortal
Oct 15 2016, 7:16pm
Post #7 of 76
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I could have the Goblin King on repeat all day long.
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I love his song(s), the CGI, the design, and the voice. I can't help but sing-a-long with him. He's my guilty pleasure.
My wife also enjoys it since it is (almost) lifted straight from the book.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 7:33pm
Post #8 of 76
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...taken straight from the book. And it fitted in the book. But it didn't fit in the movie
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 15 2016, 7:33pm
Post #9 of 76
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I'd rather hear the Goblin King than Ed Sheeran.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 7:34pm
Post #10 of 76
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I'm more of a Tchaikovsky person myself ;) //
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It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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DanielLB
Immortal
Oct 15 2016, 7:54pm
Post #11 of 76
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I think there are far worse things that stick out in the trilogy than the Goblin King.
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He fits in great, in my opinion. Whatever Kili had down his trousers definitely stuck out ... literally and figuratively. 
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StingingFly
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 8:09pm
Post #12 of 76
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What exactly was the Goblin King?
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...was he supposed to be a mutated goblin, a troll, an ogre? Azog made sense in that he was an alpha male Orc, the largest and strongest of his kind. The Great Goblin was sort of a freakish oddity, which is not the impression I got from the book. His dialogue and voice were well done. I liked the character, but the visual was all wrong. I didn't care for the "humorous" death either. One of the truly awesome Gandalf moments in the book was when Gandalf shows up out of nowhere and strikes the Goblin King down. Gandalf rarely unleashes his powers, but he sure did there.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 8:29pm
Post #13 of 76
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It does not fit. The actual Goblin-King fits ok, but no more than ok
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 8:42pm
Post #14 of 76
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Tolkien added some stuff which didn't make sense in his wider mythology (cough) a certain talking purse... (cough). The Goblin-King doesn't really, but I suppose maybe he's just a sizeable goblin....
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 11:43pm
Post #15 of 76
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I enjoyed all of the songs in AUJ, and one of my biggest disappointments with the other films is the relative lack of songs. Since this one comes more or less from the book I don't have an issue with that, and I like the comedic tone of the Goblin-King's scenes. I think he's one of the more interesting Middle-Earth villains as far as the films go.
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Oct 15 2016, 11:45pm
Post #16 of 76
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If I had to guess, I'd say the Goblin-King is a goblin with gigantism. He certainly looks nothing like the Trolls and Ogres we see (and is significantly more intelligent than them besides).
It is odd to me that the Goblin-King is even bigger than Bolg and Azog though.
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DainPig
Gondor
Oct 16 2016, 1:22am
Post #17 of 76
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I think the Extended Edition greatly I mean GREATLY improves the Goblin-king. Disagree with you completely, I think he is one of the best characters in AUJ. The song is nice though.
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LSF
Gondor
Oct 16 2016, 4:17am
Post #18 of 76
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Great characterization, design, dialogue, voice... And the song fits his grandiose character. I totally buy him doing it. I never felt it was out of place, especially since we had 3 songs already before this point. AUJ's tone allows for it. Now if something like this had been in DOS or BOFA, then I would think it's out of place.
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DeadRabbits
Rohan
Oct 16 2016, 10:58am
Post #19 of 76
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Well, according to the AUJ appendices The Goblin King belonged to another species than the goblins...
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... but what species exactly, we can only speculate in. Some crossbreed between an Ogre and a man, perhaps?
In the books, he was nothing but a giant goblin, though.
Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 1:40pm
Post #20 of 76
(2001 views)
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......3 songs were brilliant. But the Goblin-King song just was so different, in my opinion. Good song, if it had been a musical. I don't know why exactly it feels so out of place...
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 1:42pm
Post #21 of 76
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They also turned the goblins into a different species than orcs. If the goblin king is different again, I would say he is a cross between a goblin and a troll.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 1:44pm
Post #22 of 76
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contrasts against Azog ten minutes later like snow against tar. I'm not sure it entirely works
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 7:08pm
Post #23 of 76
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The Goblin-King was IMO the worst part of AUJ
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I felt they went way overboard with the CGI in the Goblintown sequence. I was initially excited that they were expanding on the scene as I felt the Rankin-Bass animation was a bit underwhelming in this score. However, everything from the Goblin-King's song and animation (as well as his general character) to the ludicrous sequence of the dwarves falling dozens (hundreds?) of feet only to shake it off and prepare for battle again just left me cold. Viewing it again when the EE came to the theater didn't help any.
If they were going to go silly with the GK and Radagast then they shouldn't have had any issue with the dwarves and Bard understanding raven speech or with the Eagles talking.
I can't quite go with it being the worst part of the TH trilogy -- there were too many other items competing for that title, not least of which were the Kili-Tauriel-Legolas thing, Azog, and Superelf defying gravity in the battle with Bolg -- but it was right up there.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 16 2016, 9:16pm
Post #24 of 76
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I agree with you about the Goblin-king. But I quite like Radagast, and I don't see anything wrong with Azog at all. Who cares if it's Bolg in the books? Zero difference.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 16 2016, 9:59pm
Post #25 of 76
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I don't see anything in Goblintown as 'silly'....
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..more an attempt to capture something of the different tone of The Hobbit, which I think in large part they did. It's lighter, more childlike - more still preserving the undercurrent of danger. And Tolkien's goblins do sing. For me the only problem with the song is that the tune sounds too modern. As for the fall, if you should watch it again at any time you might notice that the dwarves survival is explained - at least in intent - by the fact that the platform they're on breaks its fall repeatedly by hitting the sides of the chasm and finally lodges between the sides before it reaches the ground. It's exaggerated but not, I'd say, completely implausible.
As for the birds, Bard wasn't supposed to understand raven speech - the thrush was his bird. They found another way of letting him know Smaug's weak point but the thrush did seem to be communicating with Bilbo. Thorin was supposed to understand the raven and they made it very clear that he did understand it - and by implication Dain did too. They just didn't let us in on what it was saying. (The sequence with the raven was one of my favourite scenes)
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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