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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 9:27pm
Post #26 of 102
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2) What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!" Sam's daughter Elanor was puzzled about this too, but in the unpublished Epilogue, while discussing the Red Book with her father, she explains what she finally figured out:
Elanor was silent for some time before she spoke again. “I did not understand at first what Celeborn meant when he said goodbye to the King,” she said. “But I think I do now. He knew that Lady Arwen would stay, but that Galadriel would leave him. I think it was very sad for him. ..."
Sam replies:
"...I think Celeborn is still happy among his trees, in an Elvish way. His time hasn't come, and he isn't tired of his land yet. When he is tired he can go.”
Elanor and Sam also compare this to Sam staying behind when Frodo leaves, so I suppose you could say that Celeborn was feeling "torn in two" between his wife who was leaving, and the land that he was still attached to. I can't help noticing that Celeborn seems to have more sympathy for Aragorn, who never will need to feel "torn in two", than for his granddaughter Arwen who is going to have one of the saddest and loneliest deaths in the legendarium!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Oct 10 2016, 9:39pm
Post #27 of 102
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...at least people are reading my posts, if only to point and laugh.
Not mindless drivel which NEVER comes from the mouth of Darkstone...
Mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey. A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Oct 10 2016, 9:47pm)
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 10:03pm
Post #28 of 102
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You have totally flummoxed the younger crowd.
They don’t know a doats from a dozy, from a lamzy, from a kiddley – Doo they? 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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a.s.
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 10:49pm
Post #30 of 102
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1) Was Treebeard right to let Saruman go? Should he have killed him, as Saruman deserved?? Or was it a noble and forgiving thing?
Leaving aside whether it was noble or not, Saruman still had a few tricks up his sleeve, and he persuaded the old Ent that he was harmless (obviously untrue) and convinced him to let him go.
But in the story, it matters that Treebeard let's him go to work his final mischief in the Shire, because I believe we need -- or Tolkien felt we needed -- to see the hobbits directly save the Shire, not just return home to bliss. We've had a few hints along the way that Saruman is connected somehow to some trouble brewing in the Shire (the pipeweed in barrels in the stores of Isengard, for instance).
Now, a question I always have in this chapter: Saruman refuses the kind assistance offered by the company, mocks them for destroying the power of the other three rings when the one ring went in the fire, and taunts Galadriel by asking her "And now, what ship will bear you back across so wide a sea?". He says this "mockingly".
How does he know Galadriel used that line in her song back in Lorien?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 10:59pm
Post #32 of 102
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Old Saruman's been doing a bit of eavesdropping with the palantir. If you can hear stuff with it. I don't think you can. It's been like 6 months since I've read UT so I can't remember.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Oct 10 2016, 11:11pm
Post #33 of 102
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But possibly Galadriel has made this comment before once or twice over the centuries, back when she and Saruman were on speaking terms?
Otherwise, I'd vote for him spying on her with the palantir. Or possibly, since these people are telepathic and he was once one of them, he might have "heard" her say that.
Anyway, it is creepy that he seems to have overheard that private conversation, isn't it?
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 11:14pm
Post #34 of 102
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But sure we know Saruman was like that - watching Gandalf smoke pipe-weed and secretly copying him. He seems very jealous of other White Council members
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Oct 10 2016, 11:16pm
Post #35 of 102
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Maybe Arwen is "character clutter" at this point
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as we whittle the group down back toward the original hobbits + Gandalf. But I agree it's odd she was left behind, and she should have wanted to be with Aragorn as much as possible at this point.
Maybe it was too uncomfortable between her and Elrond, with their great separation written in stone? I could see her wanting out of that discomfort.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2016, 12:07am
Post #37 of 102
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Easy enough to conjure up a reason
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I think it's just weird that there's no mention of a reason for her to remain behind. You could make up lots of easy reasons, such as her goodbye with daddy being so traumatic that she barely could let him go, and she feared going back towards Rivendell would tear her in two (ok, kinda lame, but anyways).
Obviously we need to get back to just the 4 Hobbits (Gandalf leaving next chapter likewise seems quite out-of-the-blue). Poor Arwen just seems like window-dressing.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2016, 12:12am
Post #38 of 102
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I'm of the opinion that Saruman would have been quite unsuccessful at spying inside Lorien, even prior to his 'turning'. Galadriel seems to have been quite protective of her realm, and I'd think she would have noticed any outside power trying to penetrate her borders. Sauron was quite unsuccessful at this, and I'd think even a "friend" like Saruman was, would not be able to catch her unawares.
So I doubt Saruman had espied her singing this in Lorien before. But it's possible she had sung this during a White Council meeting, or at some other time when Saruman had visited her in Lorien. In person, perhaps, but not via a Palantir or other means.
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Mironiel
Lindon
Oct 11 2016, 12:47am
Post #39 of 102
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Wow. Everyone here has so many valid points and are thinking of things I never could have thought of 
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squire
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 1:01am
Post #40 of 102
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Songs used to be made from oral formulas
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Although I tend to think that Tolkien actually overlooked the impossibility of Saruman heaving heard Galadriel sing, I suggest the best explanation is that her song in Book II was her 'version' of a well-known song of the Exiles. Saruman, like all the Wise, would know it well. His zinger would have all the more force for throwing in her face, not a one-time composition, but a well-known trope of the Elvish song-book.
One reason to go with this approach is that Galadriel's song is such a production number in the 'Farewell to Lorien' chapter. We get it in Elvish and English (courtesy of Frodo's translation done from memory years later), Galadriel is heard from impossibly far away, she sings from a setting that evokes the 'white shores' imagery that connects the hobbits to Elvenhome, and it's presented as an elegy not just for Lothlorien as the Fellowship returns to the mortal world, but for the Elves of the Silmarillion itself as they fade from their last appearance in the Third Age 'sequel', The Lord of the Rings. The scene is very comparable to, but far outweighs in importance and meaning, Goldberry's farewell song in Book I.
I agree that Saruman's palantir 1) wouldn't allow him to overhear a watched scene, as it gives only silent visions of events and telepathic interchanges between shared stones; and 2) would no more succeed at seeing into Lorien against Galadriel's will than Sauron's stone (surely the mechanism for his famous 'Eye') could.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 4:57am
Post #41 of 102
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That also answers the question of whether he could go.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 10:07am
Post #42 of 102
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Sauron's 'Eye' is his palantir? That's a good eye-dea!
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In the books we don't have a literal searchlight-eye atop the tower, at best we see a red gleam, I think, and the effect of the eye is felt physically by Frodo and (I think) Gollum.
So that makes sense to me, but I would never have thought of it for myself!
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 10:33am
Post #43 of 102
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This would be a great point at which to discuss Arwen
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An odd thing about Arwen is that she hardly appears at all - we 'see her' at Rivendell, or rather we read the hobbits' report of her, with her identity given by what appears to be an editorial comment. But all we learn is that she's astoundingly beautiful in an unearthly way, and that there is some association between her and Aragorn. I can see why first-time readers can be surprised to see her turn up an marry him last chapter. Repeat readers (or those thinking back) join the dots: the elfstone Arwen leaves in Lorien for Aragorn, the war banner she weaves him, occasional comments he makes and things that he does. It's possible for a reader to infer a lot from this, and since so little authorial direction is given, I suppose we end up with very different but vivid impressions of what she's like. We certainly 'see' Arwen only through Aragorn until some brief comments this chapter - Eomer too has been stirred (Romantically but non-sexually I think) by her appearance; she's kind and insightful to Frodo. But then she's left behind to run the realm, or choose curtains, or whatever it is. And that's it, unless one reads the appendices.
So I can't decide whether Arwen is an unexpectedly successful piece of writing - a sort of pencil sketch that is more successful than any detailed portrait. Or whether she's a missed opportunity; a character who has an interesting if peripheral story, but is barely given enough writing to become more than a plot device.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 10:35am
Post #44 of 102
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That's the best thing about the Reading Room, I think!
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Wow. Everyone here has so many valid points and are thinking of things I never could have thought of !
Yep, I usually end up feeling that. Good, isn't it.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 11:04am
Post #45 of 102
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Perhaps that's also where he gets his creepy 'grey ship, and full of ghosts"?
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I agree, throwing a well known quote at Galadriel sounds right. None of this seems likely to be meant literally - as far as I know there's no reason that Galadriel should think that she would be denied access to the West if she wanted to go, though of course that was the situation for the Noldor in Middle-earth until the end of the First Age? The vessel on which she travels will not be grey, nor literally full of ghosts. But her departure will very likely be full of regrets (or so Saruman hopes, in his spite).
BTW, this 'grey ship' line now always reminds me of the song Grey Ship by EMA (a song that I like very much). Spotify link: https://play.spotify.com/...BgHUnCZmh0uqaZEvXkPS The song does not appear to be literally about Galadriel, but links between art works don't need to be literal or obvious, do they? It's ''applicable' to me, anyway.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 11 2016, 11:27am
Post #46 of 102
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This bit's good:
The hobbits and their remaining companions part company with Aragorn and his court:
"With that they parted, and it was then the time of sunset; and when after a while they turned and looked back, they saw the King of the West sitting upon his horse with his knights about him; and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn was turned to a flame. Then Aragorn took the green stone and held it up, and there came a green fire from his hand."
Firstly, that's quite a piece of writing!
Secondly, from Aragorn's POV the others are literally riding off into the sunset: but I'm not sure we often get this view: the view looking back.
Thirdly it's as if their long-time friend and comrade Aragorn is turning into a legendary Arthurian King.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Oct 11 2016, 12:01pm
Post #47 of 102
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So I can't decide whether Arwen is an unexpectedly successful piece of writing - a sort of pencil sketch that is more successful than any detailed portrait. Or whether she's a missed opportunity; a character who has an interesting if peripheral story, but is barely given enough writing to become more than a plot device. Poor Arwen, seemingly missing from the story and only turning up as a trophy wife at the very end! Yet there's something about the cryptic hints through the story that give some life to her, I think. It's a bit unbelievable really that a 3,000 year old daughter would obey her father's wishes about her choice of husband, yet she seems to behave like a young girl might who encourages her lover behind her father's back! She seems to have sent the Elfstone to Aragorn via Galadriel (who is not just in on the conspiracy, but pretty much got the whole love affair going in the first place). She sends her banner, which she has woven "in secret" (from Elrond? that's what I find myself imagining), via her brothers, who also seem to be in on the conspiracy. And she sends that cryptic message ("Either our hope cometh, or all hope's end. Therefore I send thee what I have prepared for thee.") What does it mean? I think it means that she knows she shouldn't be helping Aragorn like this until he's actually won her hand, but she's thinking, hey, close enough. At this point you'll either win through and we'll be married, or there's no future for anyone anyway. She loves and obeys her father, but still there's a benign conspiracy going on behind poor Elrond's back!
Her absence from the main story may be because Tolkien decided to make Aragorn's journey the heroic one, in contrast to Frodo's, and there wasn't really a place for Aragorn's more personal story (especially as we see events mostly from the perspective of the hobbits). Aragorn seems to feel almost a taboo about mentioning his beloved, perhaps reflecting the social taboo I remember to some extent myself in England, where you didn't talk about anyone you were getting serious about until it became official (until you "spoke", I suppose, as Sam puts it). Aragorn doesn't talk about Arwen in the story because, in his own mind, he doesn't have the right to claim his connection to her yet, just as Sam doesn't talk about Rosie. There's an odd little moment in Lothlorien, when the hobbits are comparing notes on what Galadriel put into their minds. Sam says she offered him the chance to go back to his life in the Shire "with ... with a bit of garden of my own." In a previous discussion somebody (sorry I can't recall who) had the lovely insight that the hesitation was Rosie - he's not prepared to mention her. And he doesn't mention her to Frodo at all, until after he's "spoken", at which point it seems clear that Frodo had no idea (although Bilbo had an inkling from somewhere, giving him some money "in case you decide to get married" and causing Sam serious embarrassment!)
I do sometimes wonder if Tolkien was to some extent drawing on his own experience of having to wait to propose to Edith until he came of age. He must have had to keep his love locked away in his heart too. And perhaps Arwen's role in this chapter has a resemblance to Edith's - Edith was the heart and soul of the family, no doubt, but she didn't join in his other life with his friends. Maybe that's what's happening in Many Partings - Arwen is letting Aragorn have time to himself with his old companions while she stays closer to home to start forging their new life there.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2016, 1:13pm
Post #48 of 102
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They cannot conquer for ever! (at the Crossroads)
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This also ties back into the foreshadowing that occurs at the Crossroads, when the setting sun gleams upon the statue of the fallen king:
... but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed.
Nice symmetry in having this literally fulfilled for both Sam and Frodo, who were the only ones to witness what they took as a 'sign' of hope in their hour of darkness.
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2016, 1:24pm
Post #49 of 102
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So what do we envision LOTR would be like if Tolkien, in a fit of writer's despair, simply chopped her completely from the story?
Aragorn's character development shouldn't really be affected, I think, since as has been mentioned, first-time readers are assuredly surprised when she shows up to the wedding, and returning readers still have to do a bit of extrapolation to identify the 'clues' in-text.
Tolkien loved his epic stories, so no Arwen would mean he wouldn't be able to have another man-elf union like the other two that were so significant in the Sil. But then Aragorn-Arwen is really just epic from the outside-looking-in, we don't see anything about who they are to each other or the trials they shared together.
Would we just be missing a nice tie-up to the High Elves vacation in M.E., where they left a legacy thru the Evenstar? And a nice feeling of satisfaction from readers who like seeing our suffering King inherit his realm while he proves worthy of Arwen's love?
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2016, 1:29pm
Post #50 of 102
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No book-Arwen affecting the movies!
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And ick, thinking about what the movies did to book-Arwen with her ahem "expanded" participation, and what they also did with a certain she-who-shall-not-be-named invented elf, just imagine the worst of both these worlds -- if there's no book-Arwen and the movies invent her and give her an even-more-expanded role to play!
My mind hurts from mentally going down that road. So I'm thinking Tolkien was likely inspired in at least placing her in the tale so she wouldn't be invented later on 
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