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Mironiel
Lindon
Oct 10 2016, 2:12pm
Post #1 of 102
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**Many Partings**
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First of all, I'm terribly sorry that this is a day late. Yesterday was Thanksgiving, and we had family over and stuff, and I was unable to get around to posting this post. Anyways, here are the discussion questions I came up with(There's only two, but if you have any you'd like to add, feel free to do so!):
1) Was Treebeard right to let Saruman go? Should he have killed him, as Saruman deserved?? Or was it a noble and forgiving thing?
2) What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!"
(I'm almost wondering if this is a warning, like 'Dang being married to Galadriel is hard, I hope Arwen isn't like her grandmother. Idk, just a though lol)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 10 2016, 4:29pm
Post #3 of 102
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What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!"
JRRT toyed with the idea of making Celeborn a Teleri Elf who came to Middle-earth with Galadriel, but here he is a Sinda who will remain at least for a time--and maybe for the remainder of all the days of the world--when his wife takes ship for the Undying Lands.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 10 2016, 4:29pm)
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 4:32pm
Post #4 of 102
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1) Was Treebeard right to let Saruman go? Should he have killed him, as Saruman deserved?? Or was it a noble and forgiving thing?
I think Saruman persuaded Treebeard to free him with a spell-ridden speech
2) What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!"
At first my automatic presumption would be that it seems Celeborn will not be able to go over the sea with Galadriel, and will linger on in Middle-earth in sadness, and he hopes Arwen will be with Aragorn until his death. But this makes zero sense, as we know Celeborn went with Galadriel to Aman. This is a question that has puzzled me for a long while. A possible suggestion is that Celeborn was feeling the loss of Lothlorien deeply, and "your treasure" means Gondor, and Celeborn hopes Aragorn will never be parted from it, like he was from Lothlorien.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 4:35pm
Post #5 of 102
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Ah ok Otaku-sempai replied while I was typing
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I didn't know Celeborn left the shores a good while after Galadriel
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2016, 5:34pm
Post #6 of 102
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Why is his doom just temporary?
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This is under the assumption the doom spoken of is the separation of Celeborn and Galadriel, which seems the most-accepted (but not only) interpretation. I know Celeborn's in-world history is a bit twisted between his depiction in LOTR and the Silmarillion (and likely Tolkien's other writings, I'd imagine), but let's agree he's a Sindarin Elf.
What I don't understand is why Celeborn's "doom" has an expiration date. Does Celeborn simply mean that he is doomed to remain in M.E. for a period of time, unable to join with Galadriel in her ship when departing for the Undying Lands, because he's Sindar? The elves always seem to be bragging about how the timespan of mortals is like a blinking of an eye to immortals, and it's not like the two of them really spent every-waking-moment-together anyways. Why would a few years, decades, or even centuries be considered a doom?
Or did Celeborn mean that he wasn't really sure the Valar would allow him, a Sindar, to join with Galadriel? The wisest of all elves in Middle Earth surely must have had some kind of hope, right?
So when he talked about his doom -- was he a pessimist? Pouting? Trying to embarrass Galadriel in public so she might reconsider and stick around for a while longer?
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 10 2016, 5:37pm
Post #7 of 102
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1) Was Treebeard right to let Saruman go? Should he have killed him, as Saruman deserved?? Or was it a noble and forgiving thing?
I can't believe Treebead would have let Saruman go if he'd realised what Saruman's tree-destroying plans for the Shire were. I suspect Gandalf is right, and Saruman knew just how to make the Ents feel sorry for him, and believe he was now harmless. I pretty much made the same mistake on my first reading, expecting that Saruman had organised some mischief in the Shire, but not that he was about to do more. Did everyone else see that coming?
Gandalf seems to think that Saruman should have been kept captive awaiting the King's judgment. I wonder what Aragorn would have done with him? Execution seems un-Tolkien like to me. But Saruman is utterly unrepentant, so it might be a long prison sentence!
I like the way that this chapter, which appears to be a tidying up and a getting home, actually sets up the next bit of action. There are hints both about The Scouring of the Shire, and about various of our heroes heading West soon. And about Sam getting married! Bilbo gives him the last of Smaug treasure to do it: how did the old hobbit know?
Speaking of treasures....
2) What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!" I can think of two readings:
Galadriel is Celeborn's "treasure". I suppose Celeborn already knows that Galadriel will be leaving soon, whereas he has decided to stay yet awhile. So for a time, he will have to do without her. She might be, as you suggest, not the most restful of company, but I think he'll miss her (just as driven, brilliant people can be bereft without their quiet, calm partner).
Or maybe Celeborn's treasure was their kingdom of Lorien, which will turn into a normal wood now without one of the Tree Rings to keep reality at bay.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 10 2016, 6:01pm
Post #9 of 102
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I wonder why they left Arwen behind?
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She's had her only speaking part in the story, being nice to Frodo (and foreseeing a problem nobody else has yet thought of about Frodo's likely difficulties in retirement), It's the only time we readers 'see' her directly, rater than through the impressions of other characters.. But then she leaves the party at Edoras, along with Eomer and Eowyn, Faramir and Imrahil. This seems a little odd.
It makes sense for Eomer to stay there (it's his court and there's probably plenty of king stuff to do). Eowyn and Faramir have a wedding to plan. Imrahil is probably waiting for a chance to impress upon Eomer how important it is for a king to have a queen, how much nicer double weddings are than single ones and how he conveniently shares his ancient and noble bloodline with a very charming and extremely single sister.
But why does Arwen stay? She and Aragon have been running a long-distance relationship/able to see each other only between his 'tours of duty' for a gazillion years; you'd have thought that they'd want to stay together.
To be sure someone has to be regent in the King's absence: perhaps she does that? But you'd have thought that the royal couple could leave that to their loyal Steward?
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 10 2016, 6:04pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Oct 10 2016, 6:35pm
Post #10 of 102
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1) Was Treebeard right to let Saruman go?
It’s the fundamentally Christian thing to do, but personally I think Saruman flummoxed the poor sap.
Should he have killed him, as Saruman deserved??
*I* think so. Heck, I’ve argued Gandalf and Aragorn should have killed Gollum rather than leaving him with the Elves. Would have saved a lot of Elves’ lives and prevented a lot of empty cradles. I’m sure Providence could have figured out another way to get the Ring to fall into the Cracks of Doom. Maybe Frodo could have accidentally cut his finger off on a sharp rock on the ledge and it fell in. Or how about Sam? He’s got over five times the number of teeth as Gollum. It’d make a lot more sense than Gollum gumming it off.
Or was it a noble and forgiving thing?
Absolutely. Probably made him feel all warm and fuzzy inside. But other people paid for it.
2) What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!"
(I'm almost wondering if this is a warning, like 'Dang being married to Galadriel is hard, I hope Arwen isn't like her grandmother. Idk, just a though lol)
Celeborn is saying he’s fated never to see his treasured daughter Arwen again, but hopefully Aragorn will be together with his treasured love forever. Like Aragorn says to Arwen when he dies:
"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!"
-Appendix A I (v) The Story of Aragorn and Arwen
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 10 2016, 6:50pm
Post #11 of 102
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...Celeborn went to Aman eventually. We do know that he wasn't on the ship with Galadriel, and I don't think we hear anything more about him. Galadriel is his "lost treasure." Plus, he's losing his granddaughter now!
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 10 2016, 6:54pm)
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InTheChair
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2016, 7:20pm
Post #12 of 102
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The mayan said 2012. Let's hope Celeborn didn't put his faith in them.
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2) What does Celeborn means when he tells Aragorn: "May your doom be other than mine, and your treasure remain with you until the end!"
(I'm almost wondering if this is a warning, like 'Dang being married to Galadriel is hard, I hope Arwen isn't like her grandmother. Idk, just a though lol)
Guessing that when that passage was written Celeborn was still thought of as beeing one of the Elves that would never leave Middle-Earth, so that as far as he could see, Galadriel going to Aman would mean that the two of them would remain separated at least until the end of the world. Which one would imagine is quite a long time.
As a by-comment, I think Celeborn wish for Aragorn was granted once Arwen chose a mortal fate like that of Luthien.
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 7:56pm
Post #13 of 102
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She had a fear of the Misty Mountains - I think that her mother Celebrian was killed by orcs in that region - she may not have wanted to go that way unnecessarily, and there must have been orcs still around even after the West's victory. I'm thinking that if Arwen & Elrond took the Pass of Caradhras when going to Gondor in about May (no snow), she would have been ok with it as I don't think the POC is ever described as being orc-infested in the books, and I suppose her mother may have been killed somewhere else.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2016, 8:08pm
Post #14 of 102
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I had thought the Prologue was fairly conclusive that Celeborn was the very last of the Elves to journey to the blessed realm?
... but there is no record of the day when at last he [Celeborn] sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth I guess you could read ambiguity in to the full sentence, but it doesn't seem to flow right when I read it that way.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 10 2016, 8:09pm
Post #15 of 102
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Celeborn is saying he’s fated never to see his treasured daughter Arwen again, but hopefully Aragorn will be together with his treasured love forever.
Come on, Darkstone, you know better than that. Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and Celebrían. Celeborn is her maternal grandfather just as Galadriel is her grandmother.
Now, Celebrían did take ship and sail into the West after receiving a poisoned wound from Orcs that she never fully recovered from. It is possible that Celeborn is speaking of losing both his daughter and soon his wife.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 10 2016, 8:14pm)
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 8:09pm
Post #16 of 102
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I think that's pretty conclusive //
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It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Oct 10 2016, 8:21pm
Post #17 of 102
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Why is his doom just temporary?
My assumption here is that at the time he spoke to Aragorn, Celeborn was not certain what his fate would be. He seems to have felt an obligation to remain with his folk even after Galadriel takes ship at the Grey Havens. He was probably conflicted as to whether he should remain in Middle-earth and fade or eventually join his spouse in Aman (as it is indicated that he probably did in the Prologue to The Lord of the Rings).
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 10 2016, 8:32pm)
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 8:26pm
Post #18 of 102
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Whew, hard to get a word in here....
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I’ve often been puzzled as to why Celeborn didn’t take ship with Galadriel and the Keepers. He certainly had every right.
Perhaps Celeborn became somewhat enamoured with Middle-earth. And knowing the loss of the beauty of Lorien with the departure of Galadriel decided to divvy –up Mirkwood (4th Age – Eryn Lasgalen) with Thranduil and the Woodland Elves, with the thought of taking a later ship, perhaps on the Last Ship with Cirdan…?
But we don’t know if Celeborn EVER ‘took ship’, and same with Elladan and Elrohir…
? Would their remaining automatically cause them (the Half-elven bros) to become mortal?
But enanito’s quote seems to strongly indicate that he (Celeborn) DID eventually take ship…
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Ingwion
Menegroth
Oct 10 2016, 8:35pm
Post #19 of 102
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But we don’t know if Celeborn EVER ‘took ship’, and same with Elladan and Elrohir…
? Would their remaining automatically cause them (the Half-elven bros) to become mortal?
I don't think it would. I'm not sure if the "Half-elven bros" had made their decision whether or not to become immortal/mortal, but this remaining wouldn't automatically render them mortal, unless they chose so.
Perhaps Celeborn became somewhat enamoured with Middle-earth.
If he had a free choice, surely he wouldn't be moaning about leaving Galadriel if he treasured Lorien more than her (he might just have said it to keep her happy though )
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 8:44pm
Post #20 of 102
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1) Was Treebeard right to let Saruman go?
No, not ‘right’. He should have been left ‘treed’ in Orthanc (pun not originally intended  ); his disposition left to others. But I think even though Gandalf cast him from the order of Istari he likely still had some semblance of his Maia roots – such as his golden voice, and smooth-talked Treebeard into letting him free. As Treebeard said, ”…I hate the caging of live things…”
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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enanito
Nargothrond
Oct 10 2016, 8:53pm
Post #21 of 102
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I like that distinction, that in a vacuum perhaps Treebeard's decision was 'right', but the decision really wasn't his to make. Saruman had a lot more to answer for, to a lot more people, for a lot more wrongs, than just Treebeard's empathy/pity/forgiveness. And it's not like Treebeard had no idea when Gandalf might be returning, the two of them seemed to have some kind of long-distance communication scheme (similar to Elrond/Gandalf?) anyways. It's not like Treebeard was the only one standing between Saruman and an irreversible life-sentence in Orthanc, with a time-squeeze on when the fate would become fixed...
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Oct 10 2016, 9:04pm
Post #22 of 102
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Yet more evidence of the rapid onset of senility.
I may have to stop posting ere I descend into mindless drivel.
(Or it already too late?)
Otaku-sempai 1
Darkstone 0
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 9:09pm
Post #23 of 102
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? Would their remaining automatically cause them (the Half-elven bros) to become mortal?
I don't think it would. I'm not sure if the "Half-elven bros" had made their decision whether or not to become immortal/mortal, but this remaining wouldn't automatically render them mortal, unless they chose so.
Hmm, both Foster in his Complete Guide and Tyler in his Companion state that since they (the brothers) chose not to take ship with their father they became mortal. Perhaps someone could help me with textual evidence?? *thinking*
If he had a free choice, surely he wouldn't be moaning about leaving Galadriel if he treasured Lorien more than her (he might just have said it to keep her happy though )
I believe he had free choice – go or stay (a while). Leaving (or being left) by Galadriel for fifty or a few hundred years could be likened to a day at the office for a mortal.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Bracegirdle
Doriath
Oct 10 2016, 9:15pm
Post #24 of 102
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Leaving out the word "grand" is just a typo. Not mindless drivel which NEVER comes from the mouth of Darkstone...
Er, I saw that too and decided to "let it ride" - *He really Knows!" 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Oct 10 2016, 9:21pm
Post #25 of 102
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I’ve often been puzzled as to why Celeborn didn’t take ship with Galadriel and the Keepers.
The band's new label persuaded them to ditch him for another drummer?
("Galadriel and the Keepers" sounds so irresistibly like a band.)
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Galadriel and the Keepers
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1
