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Gandalf the Green
Rivendell
Oct 8 2016, 8:16pm
Post #1 of 53
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Anyone else who felt that The Hobbit trilogy (temporarily?) ruined Middle-Earth (films) for them?
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I enjoyed AUJ and still consider it to be the best of the Hobbit films, an overall decent film that goes wrong in certain places but still feels believable as a prequel to the LOTR films, in a sense of not deviating from the feel of the world as much. Sure, it was more lighthearted, but it (except for the whole goblin cave sequence) wasn't ridiculous and unbelievably over-the-top like the other two. After DOS, things started going down the gutter for me and after BOFA, I guess you could say I felt like those movies had ruined my view of Middle-Earth for some time, as someone who is largely a fan of the LOTR trilogy.
I feel that The Hobbit films defiled much more than it ever enriched. For any others who have the same problem... how do you deal with this? I personally feel it's best to separate the events of The Hobbit into a universe different from the LOTR films entirely.
Now, nearly 2 years after the theater release of BOTFA, I feel things might be settling down and, not hearing much about The Hobbit anymore, feel more able to restore my view of the ME (cinematic) universe to the way it was back before The Hobbit started coming out.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 8:40pm
Post #2 of 53
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Coming from a person who liked the Hobbit Trilogy (although some of the directorial decisions were woeful), what made it such a bad trilogy for you? CGI? Tauriel, Kili & Legolas love triangle? The borderline "fan fiction"?
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 8 2016, 9:08pm
Post #3 of 53
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I haven't felt the desire to revisit any of PJs Middle-earth movies since DoS...
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I have however discovered a new appreciation for the Rankin/Bass adaptation since seeing PJ's misguided attempt.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 9:22pm
Post #4 of 53
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Not even LOTR? I understand people who aren't crazy about TH but I'm yet to meet a person who hated the LOTR movies
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 8 2016, 9:43pm
Post #5 of 53
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Anyone else who felt that The Hobbit trilogy (temporarily?) ruined Middle-Earth (films) for them?
PJ hardly ruined Middle-earth for me, but I do agree that he went much farther than he needed to in order to flesh-out and expand the narrative. He took what was a fairly simple story and complicated it far too much, even factoring in Tolkien's own notes and expansions.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 8 2016, 9:44pm)
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 8 2016, 9:44pm
Post #6 of 53
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I don't hate the LotR movies...
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but the Hobbit movies made me more critical of the lesser aspects of the earlier trilogy, and more interested in revisiting what came before all of the hype.
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Gandalf the Green
Rivendell
Oct 8 2016, 9:50pm
Post #7 of 53
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Among those being the way they break certain "rules" that were established in the LOTR films, particularly in the way they deviated from the realistic feel of those films, as well as the unnecessary pandering to as many audiences as possible (creating heart throb dwarves, a very weak romance between a heart throb dwarf and an elvish lady (there really was no substance there, just them trying to shove a romance in for the sake of it), the way the films stopped having much of a main character somewhere early on during the second film (the first one was clearly focused on Bilbo, but after that, they threw themselves into a mess by introducing tons more characters to the story, including the elves, fleshing out Bard's story in an unnecessary manner, etc.) The CGI really taking you out of the films, ridiculous action sequences and awful jokes (yes, Alfrid plays a part in this) that made you feel like you were watching a parody of the LOTR films... on top of many other things, including that the films were overly long for how empty they felt.
(This post was edited by Gandalf the Green on Oct 8 2016, 9:51pm)
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 9:59pm
Post #8 of 53
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dormouse posted this a few days ago, and it certainly made the whole thing make more sense to me
I think the same could be said for the other inventions you single out. If you haven't watched the Appendices you're not in a position to appreciate the thinking behind the changes made to the story. Take Tauriel and Kili: for all the objections that have been raised to this, they explain that the inspiration for this came from Tolkien's own story of Gimli and Galadriel. Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh were intrigued by Tolkien's idea of a dwarf loving an elf, given the antipathy between the races in his stories, and they wanted to explore it further. What happens between Kili and Tauriel isn't a love affair in the modern sense and they make it clear that it was never intended to be. Just the intense but ultimately doomed emotion that can spark between two individuals who are restless in their own surroundings. I'm betting that there wouldn't have been half the number of objections to it had it not been for a few clunky passages in the writing - and for me those are outweighed ten times over by the 'Feast of Starlight scene' which is one of the most beautiful in the trilogy.
It makes the whole romance so much more beautiful (although in places it is cringely and badly done)
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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dormouse
Half-elven
Oct 8 2016, 10:18pm
Post #9 of 53
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...for me the new trilogy enriches the old, as I'm realising now, watching them back-to-back for the first time.
We've disagreed about the Hobbit many times here. I realise you don't like it and that is as it is, but I can't understand why you would let that affect your enjoyment of Lord of the Rings. After all, you've said in another thread that the Hobbit doesn't feel part of the same universe for you. If that's the case, how can it affect your view of the other films? I don't enjoy the Rankin Bass Hobbit or the Bakshi Lord of the Rings, but that doesn't impinge in any way on my enjoyment of Peter Jackson's films. Even though they're the same stories they're different films; I just forget about them.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Oct 8 2016, 10:24pm
Post #10 of 53
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The two trilogies have been separate entities for me from day one anyway...
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...so no. I'm not really negative about The Hobbit films like some on here are, but even if I was, PJ's LotR trilogy remains the shining cinematic jewel it has always been. Nothing's ever likely to change that.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Oct 8 2016, 10:32pm)
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 10:28pm
Post #11 of 53
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That actually makes it worse for me
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I think the whole Kili/Tauriel plot, while it did have some sweet moments, detracted from the power of Gimli's affection for Galadriel, and for that matter his friendship with Legolas. The friendship was a milestone in Elf/Dwarf relations in the book, and the noble courtly appreciation Gimli showed Galadriel was something of an anomaly. Having an Elf/Dwarf romantic connection just a few decades earlier makes those relationships feel less exceptional.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 10:36pm
Post #12 of 53
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...to watch both trilogies back to back next Saturday. I'm going to enjoy seeing how they fit together.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 10:40pm
Post #13 of 53
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I do agree with this, but I'd rather have that than a thoughtless romance thrown in for wider appeal
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 10:41pm
Post #14 of 53
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I am a person who likes the Hobbit trilogy, but I will never love it like I love LOTR
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 8 2016, 10:51pm
Post #15 of 53
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that some of the action scenes and jokes were awful
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 4:31am
Post #16 of 53
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I think it's pretty obvious I don't think much of PJ's attempt at The Hobbit but I won't let it ruin the LOTR movies for me. If anything, the numerous and profound deviations in The Hobbit trilogy makes the spectacular rendition of the LOTR trilogy all the more special.
How do I deal with it? I just don't think about the Hobbit film trilogy (except when I'm on this board or I see it on the channel guide). I ignore it like I ignored the horrible messes that were Superman III/IV, Star Trek V/VI, Star Wars Episodes I-III, etc. As bad as it was seeing Superman become a Richard Pryor movie, it couldn't take away from how Superman the Movie made me believe a man could fly. The cheap special effects in Star Trek V or poorly thought out blatantly political storylines in Star Trek VI couldn't take away from Kirk's awe and appreciation of the new Enterprise as Scotty flew him around in ST:TMP or the nautical combat of Star Trek II.
If you disliked it that much, just pretend it doesn't exist and don't let it ruin anything else for you.
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malickfan
Gondor
Oct 9 2016, 12:22pm
Post #17 of 53
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...To be honest The Hobbit trilogy has kinda put me off the LOTR trilogy as well, many of the issues and flaws I've seen pointed in the TH films could also be applied to the earlier trilogy, I haven't watched LOTR since before AUJ came out, and I don't feel any desire to do so, I suppose I find it hard to separate my appreciation from the earlier trilogy to my disappointment in the second, I certainly have no desire to rewatch TH trilogy for the forseeable future.
The LOTR films made me into a Tolkien fan, The Hobbit films turned me into a purist 
I like the Rankin Bass version as well, but for the Graphic Novel will always be the best adaptation of the novel...
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Noria
Gondor
Oct 9 2016, 12:55pm
Post #18 of 53
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But then I love TH movies, all three of them. DOS, which expands the story and universe so much beyond AUJ, may be my favourite Hobbit film.
I have always separated The Hobbit book and the Lord of the Rings novel in my mind anyway, because they are so different in so many ways. The Middle-earth of The Hobbit is barely recognizable as the world of LotR: TH is a fairy tale, LotR a history, which happen to be set in the same world. I distinguish the two movie trilogies in the same way, and just as I greatly prefer the LotR book over The Hobbit, I favour the LotR movies over the Hobbit trilogy, a little.
I suggest that you try to separate the two trilogies and just forget about TH movies, never watching them again.
Peter Jackson said in one of the videologs that he didn’t want to repeat himself with TH. He made TH as a movie for adults as well as for kids. But PJ was still the director and TH movies are rife with the same strengths and weaknesses, the same virtues and flaws, as their predecessors.
I too don’t understand why dislike of one trilogy would affect one’s feelings about the other. Do the Star Wars prequels ruin A New Hope etc. for anyone?
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 9 2016, 2:43pm
Post #19 of 53
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Basically, every adaptation I can think of, be it film, radio dramatization, comic book, and even video game, has been better than PJ's. I think I'll have to dig out that graphic novel when I get a chance and give it another look. I remember it being pretty decent, particularly the landscapes.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 2:50pm
Post #20 of 53
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What makes TH so bad, for you? I really can't understand why some people dislike it so much
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 9 2016, 3:24pm
Post #21 of 53
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but the simple answer is that I love the book, and this adaptation strays so far from it, at times I forgot I was watching The Hobbit. And the changes they decided to make are completely uncharacteristic of the author. Many people here don't care about the book and therefore don't care that the movies only barely resemble it, but I find it offensive as a lifelong fan of the book and its author.
(This post was edited by wizzardly on Oct 9 2016, 3:31pm)
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 3:30pm
Post #22 of 53
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I understand. However, I love the book, yet I still enjoy the Hobbit films, although I admit some of the changes are on the verge of fan-fiction (and some are stupid). I don't really mind that, because they were always going to have to change some things. It may have been better had it been a two film adaptation.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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wizzardly
Rohan
Oct 9 2016, 3:41pm
Post #23 of 53
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Fan-fic is exactly the feel I got from this adaptation...
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And I don't know about you, but I have yet to see a fan-fic that comes anywhere within a thousand miles of Tolkien.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 3:44pm
Post #24 of 53
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I'm not saying TH was all bad, I enjoyed it, but I think it could have been better.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Oscarilbo
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 5:04pm
Post #25 of 53
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If you analize PJ's filmmaking style in both trilogies, you'll find that LOTR trilogy has a more realistic cinematography, the camera work is much more on a "guerrilla" style. Wether The Hobbit trilogy is a pretty romantic, dolly tracking, perfectly controlled camera work.
Of course this is to stress the differences between both stories. The hobbit, while still ME is meant to be a more innocent and bright land, and LOTR dark and dramatic one.
The perfect way to appreciate this and PJ's intentions is watching both trilogies back to back, in chronological order, therefore by the time you reach Frodo's statement "but my own adventure turned out to be quite different" at Rivendell in FOTR, with Bilbo, I promise you, you'll just get it!
"The World is Changed, I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air"
(This post was edited by Oscarilbo on Oct 9 2016, 5:09pm)
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