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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 9 2016, 12:23pm
Post #51 of 71
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seems a bit of an odd worry at this point, though, doesn't it? This is hardly the time to be wondering about whether his promised bride will give him a son. What can he do about it now? Cancel the wedding? See if Eowyn is still available after all? It's true he needs an heir (and an heir with the Elvish inheritance that is symbolised by the tree's own ancient lineage), and having confirmation of that is a great relief him. But he's waiting for a sign, right now, as he waits for the arrival of Elrond and his entourage - a time-sensitive sign, that he needs before he has the confidence to set watchers on the walls to look out for the arrivals (this detail makes me doubt whether he is using the palantir - which isn't mentioned, and which I admit I'd forgotten about! - or has any other way of knowing where the bridal party is. Perhaps it would be seen as overly controlling and presumptuous for him to keep tabs on his Elvish future family this way).
I take your point that the passage you quote is about fertility - the fertility of Aragorn's line. But I read it as meaning that Aragorn's hope of founding this royal line lies in winning his Elven princess. I don't think it's about whether the Elven princess will give him a son. In the mythic world we're in, I suspect that loving marriages are just meant to be (and assumed to be) fertile. Winning the bride was the hard part (and the part he's still looking for reassurance about). I'm pretty sure Aragorn is confident about his abilities in the heir-providing stakes, once he's sure he has Arwen by his side!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 9 2016, 1:14pm
Post #52 of 71
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That's a good explanation. But I'm still chewing over whether The timing of Arwen's journey makes sense
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I do like the idea that, with the tree, Aragorn has completed his quest.
I'm still like an old dog gnawing a bone with Arwen's itinerary though: if Elrond is really saying "no Tree, no wedding" it would be very strange for him and Arwen to have journeyed as far as Edoras already. Do they plan just to turn around and go back to Rivendell if no tree appears? Both personally and politically that would be a strange thing to do to Aragorn and Arwen.
I can partly fix that by imagining that Elrond and Arwen are satisfied, and that it's Aragorn who needs one last sign that he's done enough to at last be the Bridegroom. Getting out the plot-hole patcher, I could argue that while Aragorn has only just found the tree, It's been there for up to seven years: people equipped with magic mirrors etc. Might already be aware that this hurdle is passed. But I don't really like that idea.
Perhaps it isn't completely soluble: Tolkien needing to keep events moving in Gondor in a way that gives Arwen too little time to make her journey? She must have travelled pretty fast anyway, as one assumes she didn't set out before the Ring was destroyed.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 2:28pm
Post #53 of 71
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I agree with Silverlode's idea that Elrond had foreseen that the tree would be found. Or maybe he just kind of knew Aragorn would find it, because he had fulfilled all the other 'conditions,' and somehow he was meant to find it, whenever that would be.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 9 2016, 2:32pm
Post #54 of 71
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Finding the tree is a "sign"...
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I think you have to believe that if Aragorn is the true king, all the other things (the healing hands, the white tree) flow from that - are signs of his true kingship, rather than tokens he has to collect in order to "qualify" as the true king. Aragorn was worried because this last sign, the newly-flourishing White Tree, had not been seen. Once he has this final sign, symbolising the fruitfulness of his line, he knows he will found a dynasty and therefore that he has won his bride (he vowed long before that he would have no other bride, so it has to be Arwen or no dynasty at all).
In fact Elrond has clearly already accepted that Aragorn is now the true king of Gondor, since he's on his way with Arwen, but Aragorn it seems is not presumptuous enough to assume it himself without this last clear sign of approval (which is just another proof of his wisdom and humility, really, and makes him all the more worthy of the position he's now in!).
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 9 2016, 2:51pm
Post #56 of 71
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Midsummer's Day (romantic answer)
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8. The wedding is on Midsummer's Day, another significant date. Why was this important to Tolkien?
From the Appendices:
“Then for a season they wandered together in the glades of Lothlórien, until it was time for him to depart. And on the evening of Midsummer Aragorn, Arathorn’s son, and Arwen daughter of Elrond went to the fair hill, Cerin Amroth, in the midst of the land, and they walked unshod on the undying grass with elanor and niphredil about their feet. And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad.”
Somebody is being very romantic here, making the wedding day the anniversary of the troth-plighting. I like to think this is the reason for the date! 
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 2:55pm
Post #57 of 71
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That is most definitely the reason. Now nothing will sway me from this viewpoint! The best explanation I've ever heard about the reason for the timing of the wedding!
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 9 2016, 2:55pm
Post #58 of 71
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I think I'm going to assume there's a simple mistake in the Tale of Years
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OK, but I'm still bothered by the lack of cause and effect. If the wedding's definitely on and the tree will most certainly turn up, why is Aragorn waiting for a sign? It seems excessively legalistic And It could also be seen as rude to have made no preparations for the Longest Expected Party until the last minute.
So I'm going to imagine that a mistake got into the Tale of Years. If we read it as "25 May- Aragorn finds the white tree" (not 25 June), this clears up a lot of what's bothering me.
For one thing, it reconciles the Tale of Years with the chapter, making sense of the points that Hammond & Scull note don't work with a 25 June discovery.
For another, it makes more sense of Arwen's itinerary. From 20-27 May, Arwen and party are at Lorien. I presume that, as a wearer of one of the now-powerless Three Rings, Elrond had a way of knowing quickly that the One Ring was gone. So he and his daughter set off as soon as possible.
Then either Aragorn finds the Tree as a sign that his bride is about to depart Lorien, or she departs Lorien because the tree is a sign that she should: all conditions are now met (take your pick).
Lorien is far enough away and secret enough for Aragorn to have no means of knowing Arwen's progress (I agree that snooping on your sweetie by palantir doesn't seem very polite). It's also a reasonable forward base for Elrond to stop at, if he's confident the tree will be found it is waiting for it to be found before travelling on to Gondor.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 2:57pm
Post #59 of 71
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The Tree has absolutely nothing to do with Arwen, other than it being a proof of the kingship Aragorn needed to wed Arwen
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 9 2016, 3:10pm
Post #60 of 71
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I hadn't checked the Tale of Years, and it's got to be wrong - it says Aragorn finds the Tree on 25 June, yet the text says it blossoms when "the month of June entered in" (i.e. began). So both those things can't be right! If you assume that the "25" notation has got into the wrong month in the Tale of Years, and should be in May, it all makes good sense. It would mean that the Tree is found while Arwen is in Lorien, which is a nice touch too, since it's where she and Aragorn plighted their troth all those years ago - plus we know that there are all kinds of mystical ways of seeing what is happening afar when you are there!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 3:32pm
Post #61 of 71
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I didn't realise there was a textual inconsistency. It seems more likely the month was wrong as opposed to the date.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 9 2016, 6:46pm
Post #62 of 71
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Gandalf and the Elves have ways of keeping in touch.
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I agree that the Tree is about more than Arwen's fertility, and we have established that it isn't about the Elven party setting out, as they're almost here already. I agree that it's about heritage and all that implies.
I think Gandalf is stage-managing.
As we'll see in the next chapter (and have seen at moments throughout, though without much emphasis), Gandalf and the Elves can communicate mind-to-mind. I suggest the following scenario:
1. A former King planted a seed, and it's been dormant all these years.
2. Elrond communicated to Gandalf that they were setting out.
3. Gandalf communicated to the seed that it was time to sprout, and it grew to its present height in just a few months (after all, it grew even more and was in full bloom within a few weeks).
4. Gandalf took Aragorn up the mountain to find the Tree when it had reached a suitable height and it was time to prepare to receive the Elves.
Steps 2 and 3 might be in the reverse order, or concurrent. Does this theory work for you?
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 9 2016, 7:37pm
Post #63 of 71
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I was thinking the question is about Aragorn's fertility, not Arwen's
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It wasn't the line of queens that failed, it was the line of kings. In Tolkien's good old-fashioned Middle-earth, the primacy of descent is through the father. Aragorn, as I read it, is thinking of himself, not Arwen, when he finds the tree blooming in the frozen waste - and Gandalf agrees, making the connection between the tree and the line of Isildur buried in the chill north.
Arwen is important to the story of course, as she is the connection with Luthien and the 'reuniter' of the sundred kin of Elrond and Elros. I think she represents the power of love to Aragorn, and the finding of the tree definitely reassures him that his marriage will take place and gods approve of his success. But the life and future of Gondor and Arnor lie within his blood and potency, not hers.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 9 2016, 7:49pm
Post #64 of 71
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Nice theory but I'm not sure about 3...
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I like your assumption that Gandalf and the Elves are in touch with each other through some mysterious mind-to-mind communication. That seems quite likely, based as you say on various unexplained hints throughout the story, as well as the example in the next chapter (although at that point they are face-to-face, IIRC). I don't think the communication even has to be very specific - just a sense that "it is time" is all it would take - a bit like the feeling that Frodo and Sam get on Mount Doom - and then Elrond and Gandalf would both know what their next moves would need to be.
I definitely like the idea that Gandalf is stage-managing. That missing day seems important to me, although I know we will never have an explanation for it!
The idea that Gandalf could communicate with the seed, though, is a bit too "magical" for me. I'd prefer to imagine that Gandalf went looking for a sapling on that missing day, before bringing Aragorn to the spot overnight and giving him a massive hint ("turn your face...") about where to look. I even kind of wonder if maybe Gandalf knew all along where a sapling was safely growing in some hidden spot, and actually moved it up onto the mountain for Aragorn to find. It's all complete speculation, of course, and there's never going to be an answer. But it's more to my taste than a magical seed that grows on command. That may just be me though - I'm not a fan of overt magic that can't have any natural explanation. That the transplanted sapling grows and blossoms within a week or two of being planted out seems wonderful but not unbelievably magical - it could have been forming buds already, and once it's in good soil in a warm environment instead of on the cold barren mountainside, it would probably be quite ready to make up for lost time. (In fact now I think about it, that's what professional growers do if they need a plant to be at its best at a certain time - as a fan of the Chelsea Flower Show I've seen how plants can be kept cold to stop them blooming too early, so that when they are given warmth and water they will come into bloom at just the right moment for the competition.)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 9 2016, 8:26pm
Post #65 of 71
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I never felt there was a 'missing day' in the story
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As I read it, the narrator simple sets up a mystery to hook the reader, then doubles back a few hours to solve it. He starts by saying there 'came' a day, i.e. a day began, when Gandalf could not be found by the companions. They presumably all live together in some housing, the way Pippin and Gandalf did in Book V. His absence would be noted as soon as everyone was awake.
So where is he? and then we are told: the night before - in the dark before the dawn, it would seem - Gandalf took Aragorn out of the city and up the mountain. They were several thousand feet higher - the city was 'far below' and its towers seemed like pencils:
And standing there they surveyed the lands, for the morning was come; - LotR VI.5, bold by squire. So now it's 7 in the morning in midsummer and the sun shines, revealing all of Gondor. They find the tree, and Aragorn takes it back to the city. They return by early afternoon, maybe.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 9 2016, 9:21pm
Post #66 of 71
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It's certainly the line of kings that failed, as you say. And I agree that Aragorn needs to know that he will be able to reestablish the line of Isildur.
But I would give greater importance than you do to Aragorn's exceptional situation in having won the heart (and now hopefully the hand) of someone of much greater lineage than himself, whose inheritance will now be blended with his in all the heirs of Gondor. After all, after Gandalf makes the connection you mention between the tree and the line of Isildur, he goes on to add, "Yet the line of Nimloth is older far than your line, King Elessar." Why does he add that? Well, he's speaking in riddles yet again, but I think he's referring to Arwen's line, "older far" than Aragorn's, and, like Nimloth's, a survival from the Elder Days.
I must say that I've always thought this White Tree episode was just a nice moment of completion, bringing the tree to life and symbolising the rebirth of the line of kings, more or less as you say. But when I read the chapter carefully yesterday and put together all the circumstantial evidence, I did come to the conclusion that it's more about about Arwen than at first meets the eye. It's about Aragorn and Arwen together, of course, as the founders of the new line of kings - but from Aragorn's perspective at this point it seems to me that it's all about Arwen. Because without her there will be no line of kings. She has been the inspiration for everything he has achieved, and he has known since he met her that only she will ever be his wife. So I guess it's not surprising that he's anxious and needs the final reassurance that he has done everything he needed to do. He still isn't taking anything for granted. I for one like him all the better for it!
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Ingwion
Lorien
Oct 9 2016, 10:00pm
Post #67 of 71
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That may just be me though - I'm not a fan of overt magic that can't have any natural explanation.
As far as I know Tolkien disliked this as well.
"Yet the line of Nimloth is older far than your line, King Elessar." Why does he add that? Well, he's speaking in riddles yet again, but I think he's referring to Arwen's line, "older far" than Aragorn's, and, like Nimloth's, a survival from the Elder Days.
He may have been reminding Aragorn there were many things in the world of greater lineage than him, including the Tree and Arwen - reminding Aragorn to be humble and not depend on his lineage for greatness. Or maybe another of Tolkien's subtle nods to the Elder Days which frequent LOTR
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 10 2016, 12:41am
Post #68 of 71
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For it is said that, though the fruit of the Tree comes seldom to ripeness, yet the life within may then lie sleeping through many long years, and none can foretell the time in which it will awake. Remember this. For if ever a fruit ripens, it should be planted, lest the line die out of the world. Here it has lain, hidden on the mountain, even as the race of Elendil lay hidden in the wastes of the North.
It seems to be in the nature of the trees descended from Nimloth that they know when to bear fruit, and the fruit (if planted) knows when to sprout. I don't see any other way to interpret this. Yet the seed itself, buried in the ground for centuries, has no knowledge of the affairs of Men. It seems to me far more likely that one of the "higher beings" (Valar, maiar, etc.) can communicate with it somehow. This is Gandalf's assignment, so he's the most probable source of whatever nudge the seed took to wake up.
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 10 2016, 8:36am
Post #69 of 71
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Yes they are magical seeds in terms of the myths and legends about them that you quote. But the behaviour in that quote isn't fundamentally magical - there are real plants that produce seeds that can lie dormant for years and then germinate at a time that "none can foretell" (which is all the quote says - it doesn't say that the trees "know" when to sprout, except as all plants know when to sprout and bear fruit, I suppose, which they learn from their environment). That's the kind of non-overt magic that I mostly see in Tolkien - magic that lies deep within the everyday nature of the world. But having the seed spring to life on command, and then quickly put on several years' growth to appear to be older than it is - that just doesn't feel right to me. The Valar, or whatever Higher Power you like to imagine, may well be at work in the background, but this level of overt, unnatural magic doesn't really seem to be their style! (I've no problem with the idea that Gandalf is managing this event, though - in fact it seems highly likely to me. But I like to imagine him using his deep knowledge of nature to work his "magic", just as the Elves do, rather than using magic to rewrite the rules of nature.)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 10 2016, 9:04pm
Post #70 of 71
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Is the White Tree Arwen + Gondor in general?
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You've made a finely constructed case that the White Tree was connected very much to Arwen, which I find persuasive.
My question is: did it stop there? My thinking is that Aragorn "needed a sign," and what bigger sign did he need than 1) the downfall of Sauron, and 2) being hailed as King of Gondor, and inheriting the Arnor kingship already.
Then I thought that Sauron's downfall was a destructive act, and being hailed king was a political act. Was there a creative, positive act needed to go beyond those two, i.e., the restoration of Gondor's fertility in the abstract, meaning the gift of the Eldar (Nimloth and its descendants) as a blessing upon the Dunedain? In that sense, maybe the White Tree was needed for Arwen in particular and the Gondor-Arnor realm in general as a sign that Aragorn had indeed created something grandiose and worthy of Elrond's daughter, proving that Elros' line was indeed restored and no longer vagabonds in Arnor and extinct in Gondor.
For those in the know on trivia: was there ever a White Tree in Arnor, or only in Gondor?
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Oct 11 2016, 11:14am
Post #71 of 71
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According to what I've read, the only White Tree to survive the downfall of Númenor was the one grown from a fruit of Nimloth that was heroically saved by Isildur and planted in Minas Ithil. Several (tree) generations later, the only known survival is standing dead in the courtyard of Minas Tirith. So no tree in the north kingdom. But since the tree owes its existence to Isildur, there's a northern connection right there.
In fact I don't think the tree's symbolism really refers to Arwen herself. I think it refers to the future line of kings of the reunited kingdoms. But its specific meaning to Aragorn is what links it so strongly to Arwen. In the mystical, mythical way of Man-Elf love bonds, he just knows that Arwen is the only queen he will ever have. So to the world in general, the blossoming White Tree is a sign that Aragorn will have heirs. To Aragorn it's a sign that he will have Arwen as his bride - because she's the only one who can ever give him heirs. And that's what the urgency is, I think, as he waits and hopes that she is on her way for the Midsummer's Day anniversary of the plighting of their troth. Basically he's got the wedding jitters - and he'll feel better once he hears the first notes of Here Comes the Bride (or in Aragorn's case, sees the first blossom on the tree) and knows he hasn't been left standing at the altar!
So I'm thinking of the finding of the tree at this moment not as a sign to others that Aragorn is a worthy king of Gondor (he seems to have proved that already), but as a sign to Aragorn himself that he has been found worthy of Arwen so that together they will follow in the footsteps of Beren and Lúthien to found a new dynasty.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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