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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 7:59am
Post #1 of 42
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**ROTK VI.5 The Steward and the King** 2. The Steward and the Shieldmaiden
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After five days of bed rest, Éowyn gets up, asks "the women who tended her" to bring her clothes, and she dresses and seeks out the Warden of the Houses of Healing. The Warden says Éowyn was supposed to stay in bed 7 days longer. Her main injuries were a broken arm and "black breath" from being in contact with the Witch King.
1. Éowyn left her home on short notice, dressed as a Rider of Rohan and with minimal baggage. She intended and expected to die in battle. What "raiment" did she put on?
2. The warden says she needs more bed rest. What is that based on?
The Warden launches, Ioreth-like, into a monologue about 'the new captain out of the North' who is said to be leading the army.
Thwarted by the warden but being completely familiar with how to get things done, she asks to speak to whoever's In Charge, who turns out to be the new Steward, Faramir.
4. How would you describe Faramir's physical and emotional state right now? How much do you think he knows about his father's death?
I still remember reading LotR for the first time, many years ago. When Faramir appeared in Book IV, I immediately said to myself, "OMG, somebody PLEASE introduce Éowyn to this wonderful Man!" Tolkien admitted that Faramir came into the story uninvited and unlooked for: A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir. (Letter 66, 6th May 1944)
5. Did Faramir walk into the story to meet this need? What other story problems does he solve for the Author?
6. Here the text has become more formal, speaking of "the Lord Faramir" and "the Lady Éowyn." Why have we gotten more formal?
The progress of their acquaintance is mostly seen from Faramir's POV. He is immediately drawn to the wounded Shieldmaiden, but she is still mostly focussed on dying in battle. Here, he is repeatedly described as feeling Pity. Now, pity is a big thing with Tolkien: Bilbo's and Frodo's pity for Gollum are major deciding factors, but at least to our eyes, it's a poor foundation for a love affair.
7. What does Tolkien mean by "pity" here?
Faramir is both respectful and logical, pointing out that right now the most useful thing she can do is recover her strength against whatever may come. She seems reluctantly to accept this, but confesses that a major concern is that her window does not look eastward. Faramir immediately understands, and promises to fix that, by inviting her to walk in the garden with an eastward view, and preferably with him, as that would "ease his care". She wasn't expecting that:
‘How should I ease your care, my lord?’ she said. ‘And I do not desire the speech of living men.’
‘Would you have my plain answer?’ he said.
‘I would.’
‘Then, Éowyn of Rohan, I say to you that you are beautiful. In the valleys of our hills there are flowers fair and bright, and maidens fairer still; but neither flower nor lady have I seen till now in Gondor so lovely, and so sorrowful. It may be that only a few days are left ere darkness falls upon our world, and when it comes I hope to face it steadily; but it would ease my heart, if while the Sun yet shines, I could see you still. For you and I have both passed under the wings of the Shadow, and the same hand drew us back.’
Whew.
8. In some past discussions, it's been suggested that Faramir's oblique reference to Aragorn was a tactical error. Does he, at this point, know anything of her attraction to Aragorn? Was that last phrase a mistake?
This is moving much too fast for Éowyn, who breaks off the conversation and flees, but not without accepting the invitation to walk in the garden with the eastward view. The smitten Faramir immediately sets out to learn more about this Shieldmaiden, first from the Warden and then from Merrie.
The next day, Éowyn does come (now dressed in a white gown, procured somehow) to walk and talk with the Steward, and they do so for five days, during which time Faramir sends for a beautiful cloak that belonged to his mother, and their relationship grows.
In the Houses of Healing, by Anke Eissmann
Next: A Fine Romance
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 4 2016, 8:03am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 10:50am
Post #2 of 42
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Pity and respect are what gets the romance going. At least, I think so - I find it difficult to read this section critically, I do so want the romance to work out.
Eowyn is a proud woman, in a good way that could turn to the bad. I think she currently feels somewhat humiliated by Aragorn's combination of romantic rejection and somewhat paternal affection (and I've just argued, Post 1 that it might make it worse that she now ought to be grateful to him as her healer).
Observe that Eowyn first notices Faramir's pity and is offended. Then she notices that he doesn't mean it disrespectfully. Then she assesses whether he in turn is someone she can respect. Lastly , she's suddenly worried about whether he won't respect her (because she is trying to pull rank on the Warden and get herself discharged).
The bombshell that Faramir drops on her is that he pities her as one equal might pity another. I don't think she's encountered that before. Perhaps especially not from a high-ranking man. He doesn't pity her as a greater being to a lesser (which must surely be how Aragorn comes across). He doesn't extend sympathy (or appear to extend sympathy) in order to get something. He doesn't pity her for being a woman. He pities her for being a great warrior whose abilities have been overlooked because they don't come in the standard warrior package, and who has been into and out of a desperate situation. He knows exactly of what he speaks, of course. They are alike in many ways - something that I as a reader come to realise just as they do.
What's with the Formal language?
It's how the nobility cover their dignity while putting feelers. Compare Eowyn's desperate 'thee' to Aragorn when she wants him to take her on his suicide mission through the Paths of the Dead, and how he recoils by calling her 'lady'.
What else is Faramir for?
I don't know that he is the gender-swapped version of the princess that Eowyn gets to marry for killing the dragon (though that is a nice idea in its way).
Faramir firstly gets Frodo and Sam across Ithilien, and then bears news (and no prisoners) back to Gondor to discomfort Denethor. His shrewd judgement of Gollum foreshadows what will happen chez Shelob. Also importantly, he is the key person who oils the return of the King - his instant and enthusiastic loyalty to Aragorn is politically important.
I wonder when Tolkien realised he had two grieving, lovable characters and should pair them off. I wasn't expecting it on first reading I was only about 11) and it has retained a sort of happy accident feel for me ever since
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Oct 4 2016, 11:05am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Oct 4 2016, 11:19am
Post #3 of 42
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I think I mentioned this before, he does link books 4 and 5 been the only character, I believe to appear in both! I don't know if Tolkien or his publishers planned it this way, but it is how it happened.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 1:02pm
Post #4 of 42
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The accessible version of Aragorn
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Tolkien may not know why he invented Faramir, but he puts him to use well. Book-Boromir never impressed me much, but Faramir did as the representative of the best of the Dunedain. He's more accessible than Aragorn, who seems to keep a lot bottled up inside, and besides that, he grew up as a wealthy prince in a great city rather than as a scruffy Ranger in the wild, so he's polished.
He's a great contrast to Denethor, who, according to Gandalf, represents some of the best of the Dunedain in their abilities, but not in their demeanor.
Those 2 roles alone would justify including him as a character. But as noble and wonderful as he is, always saying and doing the right thing (even resisting the Ring!), he's caught up in Denethor's negative web of family dynamics where he's the Despised Second Son that Denethor then regrets despising and ultimately goes insane over (among other reasons). Eowyn was stuck in a dark web of her own at Theoden's court, helpless to escape as Eomer did and forced to watch her uncle/father dwindle into dotage, then jilted by the Rescuer King she was so smitten by.
Gandalf (or Aragorn, I forget) left orders that the manner of Denethor's death should be kept from Faramir as long as possible, but I can't think it stayed secret long, so my assumption is he knew his father went mad and burned himself alive and tried to burn him too, and it wasn't that long ago that he learned his dear brother had died. He's got those horrors to equal Eowyn's own horror at watching her father-figure be killed in battle, and they both came under the Black Breath, and as he says, they were saved by the same hand.
So, it does seem there's some deep commonality between these two to provide some magnetic attraction. Though I know there's a school of thought that finds this whole romance too neatly contrived.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 1:14pm
Post #5 of 42
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Faramir's wooing skills and tactical errors
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He does come on strong, doesn't he? It seems love at first sight for him, because he doesn't seem to understand Eowyn that well until after he's talked to Merry, and he seems to figure out the whole Aragorn love triangle thing only later. So, as in all dating situations, you can walk onto someone else's land mines without knowing it because you just don't know that person's past and what their baggage is. All the same, for him to refer to Aragorn in even the most innocent and indirect way is certain to hit Eowyn's trigger point.
What is remarkable is that he's a grown man and prince of the city, and he must have had women trying to get his attention in the past, and let's assume with his confident approach to Eowyn that she's not his first girlfriend, but he quickly settles on her as "The One for Me." I'm reminded of Tolkien's essay of the ways of the Elves, where they meet their soulmate and just seem to know it, so Elven dating and the road to marriage is pretty simple. Faramir seems to be playing that out here.
Eowyn provides the stark contrast between supreme confidence in her military skill and amateurishness when it comes to emotions. In that sense, she's written like many super-strong (physically) male characters who get all tongue-tied and helpless when it comes to romance.
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 4 2016, 2:28pm
Post #6 of 42
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Pity is a poor foundation for a love affair
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7. What does Tolkien mean by "pity" here?
Eowyn is surrounded by pity, n'est-ce pas?
Few other griefs amid the ill chances of this world have more bitterness and shame for a man's heart than to behold the love of a lady so fair and brave that cannot be returned. Sorrow and pity have followed me ever since I left her desperate in Dunharrow and rode to the Paths of the Dead; and no fear upon that way was so present as the fear for what might befall her.
To me, Faramir's "pity" seems much like "empathy". You can pity somebody without coming close to understanding them as a person; you can have sympathy by imaging that it must be tough to be them; or you can have empathy, where you intimately feel the other's pain and suffering.
Faramir is described as a man whom pity greatly stirred, and I'm sure this was not what Eowyn wanted or expected. But while Faramir initially offers her pity as equals, he stresses later on that pity is not what he then offers her -- his pity (or compassion) has been left behind and replaced by love.
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 4 2016, 2:37pm
Post #7 of 42
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Perhaps I'm jumping ahead in the discussion, but since we're talking about Faramir and Eowyn, I love the part where they realize they love each other. When Faramir asks her why she remains and doesn't go to join her brother, she responds "Do you not know"? And when he replies that there's two possibilities, Eowyn exclaims "I do not wish to play at riddles. Speak plainer!"
Of course Eowyn herself is playing at riddles when she say's "Do you not know?" I've met many a strong-willed person like that in my day, who speaks guardedly concerning themselves yet demands clarity and plainness from those around them 
But Eowyn's behavior does actually sit well with me. She was on the rebound from love un-returned, a love she had imagined must be something that Aragorn likewise felt. So now she likely was afraid that she maybe had misread Faramir, so she's quite hesitant to jump in feet-first. Lucky for her, Faramir had no such qualms!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 3:47pm
Post #8 of 42
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The chapter through Eowyn's wardrobe choices
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First she just has 'raiment'. Somebody has been busy stitching, just as somebody at Rivendell had made Frodo a new clean suit by the time he gets up at the start of Book 2. Tailoring services as a gesture of hospitality for a high-status guest who has turned up only in very battered stuff.
The white gown in telling, as Elizabeth suggests. We once had an excellent essay on clothing in LOTR (one of the TORN symposium pieces). I remember that white clothes are very high status - hard to make white cloth and white garments are hard to look after. It is also, of course, Eowyn's signature colour. Somebody has been getting it ready to help Eowyn look her best - possibly without the current circumstances in mind, or possibly the healers have been observing how things are going and quietly giving a girl a helping hand.
Five days after their first meeting, we have Eowyn draped in a blue robe Faramir has got out for her that used to belong to his mother. The two of them are just about to sort out in words what they feel about each other, but the fact that she's wearing his (mother's) cloak already declares them to be a couple. It's 'wearing her boyfriend's jacket' http://tvtropes.org/.../HerBoyfriendsJacket with some potentially interesting twists thrown in.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 4:36pm
Post #9 of 42
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"Her Boyfriend's Jacket" taken literally seems like a gag that Tolkien isn't using. As you say, we should look at the 'twist': Eowyn isn't wearing his clothes, something that I imagine women would not have done before the mid-20th century (and TV Tropes specializes in cross-references that don't go much earlier than that).
Instead, she is wearing her future/late mother-in-law's clothes. I agree that you are in the ball park - nice! But where else can we find instances of a more gender-restricted transferred intimacy like this, say in medieval or Victorian tropes that Tolkien would have easily used: The Hero's wooed Girl wearing Mom's stuff?
I never know when to stop, but more often than I like, I return to Tolkien's writing about women seeming to be reflective of his own, fairly limited, experience. I wonder if this episode might suggest to us that Tolkien once gave his fiancee Edith something that had belonged to his later mother, Mabel?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 9:08pm
Post #10 of 42
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Is it morbid, or romantic, or both?
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In the real world, men can give their mother's ring to their wives-to-be. That's romantic.
But something about clothing--isn't that a bit morbid? "Here, my dead mother used to wear this. You'll look good in it." Isn't that what the crazy serial killer says to his female victim just before killing her?
On the other hand, it is touching that he kept his mother's clothes, and it's a sure sign of his strong intentions for Eowyn that he gives her the loaner. And there's a pragmatic side to it too, that she's a princess used to wearing princess garments, and as Elizabeth pointed out, she left Rohan with nothing but a male warrior wardrobe.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 9:12pm
Post #11 of 42
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Well, I was too dense to ever notice that, so thanks for pointing it out.
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I like the contrast in the two people here via dialogue, where the more sophisticated Faramir seems to speak in riddles, and the blunt, less sophisticated Eowyn wants him to be more direct. But you pointed out, what I've always overlooked, that she's being just as coy with that "Do you not know?" If she were "speaking plainer," she'd tell him just what the reason is.
On the other hand, I see Eowyn as 1) not very mature emotionally and 2) not very sophisticated, so maybe she's not being deliberately evasive, she just doesn't know how to put her feelings into works. It's like she's sixteen, and Faramir is her first date ever.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 4 2016, 9:43pm
Post #12 of 42
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A bride is traditionally advised to wear:
"Something old,
something new,
something borrowed,
something blue."
The gown is definitely old, borrowed, and blue.
Coincidence?
I think not!!
Additionally something blue protects the bride from the Evil Eye.
(Now who around here is both Evil and an Eye? Three guesses and the first two are free.)
Also something borrowed from a matron who has borne healthy children specifically protects the bride from being struck barren by the Evil Eye.
A gift both suggestive and practical! Clever Faramir!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 4 2016, 9:51pm
Post #13 of 42
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Tolkiens text on it is interesting
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"over all the Lady Éowyn wore a great blue mantle of the colour of deep summer-night, and it was set with silver stars about hem and throat. Faramir had sent for this robe and had wrapped it about her; and he thought that she looked fair and queenly indeed as she stood there at his side. The mantle was wrought for his mother, Finduilas of Amroth, who died untimely, and was to him but a memory of loveliness in far days and of his first grief; and her robe seemed to him raiment fitting for the beauty and sadness of Eowyn."
The fair and queenly bit is romantic, the sad bit is a little morbid. Or perhaps not: certainly "I like you because you're sad" doesn't seem a healthy foundation for a relationship. But maybe Faramir is both considering Eowyn as a potential consort here ("queenly") and doing the nearest he can to asking for his dead mother's blessing? And maybe the sadness is a fear that this lovely woman might be lost to him too: in the war, or because of she's unable to heal.
The mantle is evidently a high-status garment, way beyond just something practical you'd offer an honoured guest to keep them warm. That's enough for it to act as a potent tie sign. Whether Faramir told Eowyn about the history of that item goodness knows. It might indeed sound a bit odd. One could go all psychological about a man who wants to dress his girlfriend like his mother. Maybe Eowyn was checking the Houses of Healing shower room for a hidden string section for weeks?
And squire is quite right- there could be allusions quite specific to Tolkiens time (or to stories that he knew) that are largely lost now, just as Tolkien might have taken at least until 1960 to get my "Psycho" reference just there.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 4 2016, 9:55pm
Post #14 of 42
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Compare the intricate and almost sinister investigation by Faramir of Frodo, Sam, and Gollum versus the blunt and pretty forthright questioning by Eomer of Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Oct 5 2016, 1:34am
Post #15 of 42
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Yes, perhaps it is something Elvish in Faramir
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In the back of my mind, while I read this chapter, I am always reminding myself that Faramir has an exceptional gift for reading people. It doesn't take him long to discern the locked doors within Gollum's mind and deduce that he is faithless and a murderer. So, taking his exceptional insight into account, I imagine he discerns virtue in Eowyn that even she does not fully appreciate herself.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Oct 5 2016, 1:48am
Post #16 of 42
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Taking up the mantle of Finduilas
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In addition to foreshadowing their impending union, the mantle also seems to symbolize Eowyn's rebirth (if that is the right word). Eowyn was unable to find a suitable place for herself in Rohan. In desperation she ventures blindly to Gondor in search of death and renown. There she finds the man that at last presents her with "raiment fitting for her beauty", the raiment of a Gondorian noblewoman. Eowyn, at last, has found her rightful place in the world.
Interesting, too, is the fact that Finduilas (as we learn in the appendices) felt desperately out of place in Minas Tirith. She soon withered away there and met an untimely death. But now, through her son, she has brought salvation to another woman who was in danger of suffering a similar fate - that is: death due to hopelessness. Thus, the mantle could be seen as symbolic of the legacy of Finduilas.
"Good Morning!"
(This post was edited by Al Carondas on Oct 5 2016, 1:48am)
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 2:40am
Post #17 of 42
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It's always about the beauty of the woman
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Or so it seems. At least in Faramir's declaration of attraction, he moderates his flattery of her beauty, a little. He admits that her only other apparent quality - her sorrow - also appeals to him because of their shared loss, their shared knowledge of coming doom, and their shared rescue from the Shadow by Aragorn. But he leads his pitch with her beauty, as poetically rhapsodized as any woman's vanity could wish for.
Is Eowyn vain at all? Is she taken by this, whether she lets him know it or not? Is she used to her physical looks drawing constant male attention? Unused to it, as some here have suggested? Has Faramir won other women with a similar pitch, so that he is baffled by her insistence that she does not wish to be wooed for her beauty, but respected for her (whoops!) fighting skills? As I read it, Faramir is completely sincere, and in the context of the story, has never before fallen for a woman because he's never met one as gosh darned beautiful as this one is.
If I remember, Aragorn also is first taken by Arwen's unearthly beauty, in their 'Tale' that we read only in the appendices. There aren't any other romantic courtships in the book, unless we count Tom Bombadil's brief musing on how he found Goldberry. But there are plenty of other women described as being incredibly, unbelievably, incomparably, beautiful.
I guess we have to take as a given Tolkien's own love of crafting a Romantic ideal in this area of story-telling. We're never going to learn what other character traits might actually draw his couples together during the courtship phase, any more than we will learn the details of countless other 'realistic' aspects of life in Middle-earth.
But I have to admit I occasionally get tired of the proposition that it's only incredibly beautiful women who win, instantly, the hearts of these incredibly talented, brave, wise, good-humored, and cultivated men. She has one quality worth mentioning; he has half a dozen.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 6:09am
Post #18 of 42
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Very true- conventions in how men and women behave too?
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Wishing to indicate her interest in Aragorn, Eowyn restricted herself to glances and trembling hands. Perhaps Rohan and Gondor are among the cultures where it is not respectable for a woman to make the running in courtship?
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Oct 5 2016, 6:32am
Post #19 of 42
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that there's also a greater sense of being given a family heirloom than the "boyfriend's jacket" idea suggests. It was not unusual in English society for families to pass on some important item - for instance, a special piece of jewelry - from mother to eldest son's (the heir's) wife as an engagement or wedding gift. Being given an heirloom is a sign of joining the family, while the boyfriend's jacket is more a personal gesture as he gives his own possession (or achievement, in the classic case of the school letter jacket) to his girl.
I think Finduilas' cloak being given to Eowyn is more similar, for instance, to Kate Middleton being given Lady Diana's engagement ring. When Eowyn marries Faramir, she's not just getting the man, but the rank and position as well. She'll take the place that his mother held in her generation, just as he'll take his father's. She's literally taking on the mantle of Steward's wife, and later, Princess of Ithilien.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 7:58am
Post #20 of 42
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By bringing up TVTropes there, I was emphasising that the mantle is something that is bound very widely to be seen as a tie sign between the two of them. I'm in full agreement that 'her deceased potential mother in law's mantle' is not the same in every respect as 'her boyfriend's jacket'. Where it has the one of the same effects is that anyone seeing them together (and knowing what that garment was), would be very likely to come to a conclusion about the relationship between them. I think this is entirely what Tolkien intends, and gives the readers a strong prompt of what is going on before Faramir and Eowyn's (realistically) fumbling effort to communicate this in words.
I'm sorry if TVTropes was distracting....
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 9:25am
Post #21 of 42
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That's one trope Tolkien doesn't step beyond
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The only ugly female character is Shelob! Perhaps elves can't help but be mesmerisingly beautiful to mortals, and for the lack of lady orcs or dwarves in the story we have to look to the "Men". Eowyn is the only young female man we get much of a look at in this story, and Tolkien decides to make her both the beautiful fairytale princess and a much more of an active (and to me interesting) character that fairytale princesses traditionally are.
Various thoughts - more independent observations than anything that is a logical series of points leading to a conclusion. I'd be interested to read what others think.
Eowyn has it all (except, as yet, happiness): the looks AND the ability to ride to battle and decapitate a full-grown fell beast with a single stroke. Too much? Or a fitting match for Faramir?
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It would be refreshing to have a leading female character who doesn't also have to be drop-dead gorgeous: it doesn't really seem to be necessary given how well Tolkien has (by this stage) been able to get us involved with Eowyn's character and predicament. On the other hand, it does seem to assist Tolkien to give us Eowyn as he does - when he first meets her Aragorn notes both Eowyn's beauty and a steely quality about her. Is making her pretty a quick way of getting the sympathy of the readership at this point? If she were ugly would it raise an unwanted distraction ("of course Aragron doesn't fancy her, Arwen is far prettier", rather than "of course Aragorn is not going to be drawn into a romantic entanglement with anyone, being unshakably loyal to his existing relationship, and no fool politically').
Now Tolkien is in a hurry to pair Eowyn and Faramir off. Reminding us that she looks lovely helps things along. Getting us too see that he things she's lovely despite her plainness by conventional standards would take longer.
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If you're in love with someone, they appear to you to be beautiful (at least that is my observation). Let's imagine that Faramir is casting admiring glances over Eowyn as far as he dares. That oddly shaped finger that never quite reset properly after a sparring accident. is fascinating and alluring. On the few occasions when he's been able to make her smile - really smile - he sees the gap in her teeth (childhood riding accident, she tells him later. Set my horse at too high a fence because Eomer said I wouldn't dare.). All part of the intoxicating package to our smitten young Steward.
And note a writing problem here (aside from the limits of my writing skills): maybe this kind of thing makes one reader say 'awww' in recognition. But maybe it annoys or offends another: 'you're saying that bad teeth or injuries are unattractive?' A writer wishing to stare down the 'heroines are beautiful' trope can merely emphasise it instead.
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A related fantasy trope also gets in the way: good things are beautiful, and bad things are ugly (or 'look fair and feel foul').
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By really emphasising Eowyn's feminine virtues here, Tolkien leaves himself more open to the accusation that she was only martial for as long as it suited him, and will now become safely marital. (I'm glad to see we are to discuss that interesting area under Post 3)
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Thinking of counters to this trope in fantasy literature, I'm coming up with a character from Game of Thrones, Brienne of Tarth. Brienne is unusual (perhaps unique) in George RR Martin's fictional world of Westeros: she's a female knight. A tall and powerfully built woman and an able fighter, she is regarded by many of the other characters as an un-feminine monstrosity. My reading, however, is that the readers are invited to admire her as the story's ideal knight. I think I am invited to see in contrast to other, highly flawed male models of the profession. Still, Mr Martin has yet to finish his story, so we'll have to see how it all works out.
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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squire
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 11:56am
Post #22 of 42
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One thing - beauty and ugliness are at the ends of the spectrum
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It is almost as silly to say that all women are either ugly or beautiful, as it is to say that all the women are beautiful (men as well, but the subject here is women because of the text we're discussing). Eowyn needn't sport obvious physical flaws to avoid the trope of being called beautiful - real facial and bodily appearances are far more varied than that, as we know. Most people are perfectly nice looking in any number of ways, yet very few of us reach the heights of symmetry, balance, and proportion that our cultures rate as beautiful. And yet of course when love strikes, that 'perfectly nice' face can be quite transformed. No need to invoke gaps in teeth, cosmetic deformities, etc. to defuse the charge of beauty.
I think you're most on the right track in pointing out that love tends to erase flaws and heighten our perceptions of physical attractiveness. That might well be a way to interpret Faramir's opening speech, in fact, except that one has to be attracted to something other than physical assets in the first place, for the physical perceptions to be overridden.
That's the problem with 'love at first sight', of course: it ignores character, background, personality, etc. entirely in favor of sheer charisma. As far as we know, Faramir has never met Eowyn before, and after less than five minutes of her somewhat childish whining he boldly calls her the most beautiful being in Gondor, who'd he like to be next to when a looming death calls for them.
squire online:
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Oct 5 2016, 1:00pm
Post #23 of 42
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The only ugly female character is Shelob!
Perhaps, but not every other femaie character in the book are examples of unearthly beauty. Lobelia Sackville-Baggins probably did not turn a lot of heads in the Shire. I also doubt that either the woman Ioreth of Gondor or her cousin from Imloth Milui were great lookers, though Ioreth might have been able to stun a companion with the sheer tonnage of her words.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Oct 5 2016, 1:04pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 3:52pm
Post #24 of 42
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Though to begin with (now I've thought about the chapter more) it seems to have a protective edge which seems a little odd- perhaps Eowyn is reminding Faramir of his dead mother?
It's baggage they'll have to get past if they are to found a relationship with a good chance of success. I think a relationship based on one party pitying or protecting another wouldn't work out, except in a very co-dependent way.
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 5 2016, 4:00pm
Post #25 of 42
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Hmmm - perhaps Tolkien is in too much of a rush
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There's a lot in Eowyn's character to like (though she can also go all self-centred). We know this, having followed her story. Faramir doesn't know it, and anyway perhaps it would have been better for him to have found her company agreeable in a not obviously romantic way before all the 'gosh you're lovely' stuff overwhelms him.
I think Tolkien wants to persuade us that the two of them are compatible at a deep level - having him smitten at the point when he pretty much has her appearance and her war record to go on is perhaps being a little hasty.
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Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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