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**ROTK VI.5 The Steward and the King** 1. Introduction

Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 3 2016, 6:41pm

Post #1 of 12 (1553 views)
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**ROTK VI.5 The Steward and the King** 1. Introduction Can't Post

Welcome to this week's discussion of Book VI, Chapter 6. Sorry I've been mostly AWOL the last few weeks, I've just returned from a few weeks in Europe, where I've had limited internet access. I did manage to make a pilgrimage to Oxford to drive by Tolkien's home and have a pint in the Bird and Baby. Now on with our chapter...

This chapter is divided into two major sections, as suggested by its title: a warm account of the meeting of Faramir and Éowyn in the Houses of Healing, and a more distanced celebration of the coronation of King Aragorn and his subsequent marriage to Arwen Undómiel. I will have several posts, the total TBD.

1. Would it be better to divide these major sections in two chapters? Why do you think Tolkien combined them?

As is my habit when starting a chapter discussion, I like to review where we are and what's been going on.

* The chapter begins on March 20, in the Houses of Healing in Minas Tirith.

* Faramir was wounded on March 13, a week ago. He was treated by Aragorn the evening of March 15. It's been only 3 weeks since Faramir learned of Boromir's death, although his elder brother had been gone 8 months before that on his quest. We can assume that during this week he has learned of his father's death.

* Éowyn was wounded on the battlefield March 15, five days ago, and treated by Aragorn that evening. Her uncle/foster father, Théoden, was killed that day.

* The Host of the West left Minas Tirith on March 18, two days ago.


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Over the city of Gondor doubt and great dread had hung. Fair weather and clear sun had seemed but a mockery to men whose days held little hope, and who looked each morning for news of doom. Their lord was dead and burned, dead lay the King of Rohan in their citadel, and the new king that had come to them in the night was gone again to a war with powers too dark and terrible for any might or valour to conquer. And no news came.


2. I would expect an army such as this to have daily riders going between them and the City. Are they really not communicating at all?

3. What have the people in Minas Tirith been doing while the Host of the West has been on its expedition, other than grieving and worrying?

4. How much do you think Éowyn and Faramir have been told about how they were healed, and by whom?


Next: The Steward and the Shieldmaiden








enanito
Rohan

Oct 3 2016, 8:46pm

Post #2 of 12 (1509 views)
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4. How much do you think Éowyn and Faramir have been told about how they were healed, and by whom?

Faramir awoke to the sight of Aragorn who had just healed him, right? So I'm assuming he figured out that Aragorn had used his 'kingly powers' to do it.

Eowyn, on the other hand, awakes with more or less the same fatalistic desire to find battle (and death) without any delay. I don't believe we get any hints that she knows that it was Aragorn who healed her.

If she knew it was Aragorn who healed her, would she have been pleased? Perhaps yes, since later she tells Faramir that she still wished to be "loved by another", and if she knew Aragorn had healed her, she might have clung to that knowledge and would have expressed an even greater longing for him.

Or perhaps she wouldn't have appreciated being healed even by her idol, if it meant that she was destined to yet again be left behind when others went to their death. It might have tormented her to know that Aragorn had healed her and then left her behind, while he went for battle and glory.


Ingwion
Lorien

Oct 3 2016, 10:08pm

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1. Would it be better to divide these major sections in two chapters? Why do you think Tolkien combined them?


Maybe it is to highlight that the Steward, Faramir supported the King unlike Denethor, who was against the return of the King? "The Steward and the King" could highlight the mutual bond of friendship between them, when maybe it would be naturally assumed Faramir would resent Elessar


It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.

It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 3 2016, 10:48pm

Post #4 of 12 (1487 views)
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What does Éowyn know? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn tactfully withdrew before she regained consciousness, leaving her in the care of Éomer. Éomer was acutely aware of the sensitivity of the situation. Would he have told her how she was healed, or not? What about Ioreth and the other healers?

How would Éowyn feel about this?








Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 4 2016, 7:01am

Post #5 of 12 (1468 views)
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Good observation. [In reply to] Can't Post

We know Denethor's views, and although Boromir was supportive during the early part of the Fellowship, he may well have had doubts when it came to relinquishing ultimate power in Gondor. Still, the tale of the relationship between Éowyn and Faramir really feels to me like a different story.








noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 4 2016, 10:33am

Post #6 of 12 (1463 views)
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I think she must surely have found out [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it is clear whether Eowyn was aware of Aragorn's presence during the healing process itself. Surely, though, everyone would have told her? The King who is a healer is a marvel and the talk of the city, and his healing abilities have become a celebrated token of his fitness to be king (though it probably doesn't hut to have led the relief of the City and to have been immediately accepted by the war council, either!).

Moreover, probably people know that Aragorn was in Rohan and involved in the war there. So Eowyn might find herself innocently asked for that story.

To realise that it might not be tactful to talk all about Aragorn to Eowyn, you would have to know a lot about their relationship (or to her frustration non-relationship) to date. But who would know about that?

Eowyn is proud (more on that in answer to Post 2, because I think it's key to getting the Eowyn/Faramir romance under way): I really don't see her making it clear that news about Aragorn wasn't welcome. perhaps it is welcome, or perhaps she would endure it, as a tough, heartbroken shieldmaiden should....

I do wonder, though whether having been healed personally by Aragorn doesn't rub salt into the wound for her right now. I don't think Eowyn's main motive for riding to battle was to get herself killed to spite Aragorn - I think she wanted to achieve something great on her own terms before the world ended. Perhaps she is now in a position a bit like Frodo's. She has achieved something great, but it didn't kill her as she expected (?hoped?) and now she has to go on with the consequences of having survived.

Here's a complicated thought that I hope I can explain coherently. I read an interesting article (http://www.themarysue.com/the-story-of-eowyn/) criticising the PJ film for getting Eowyn inadvertently rescued by Aragorn. If you recall, Book Eowyn kills the Witch King then collapses,. EEMovie-Eowyn is wounded but still conscious, and is threatened by Gothmog the orc. It's not clear whether Eowyn will be able to reach the sword she is crawling towards, or will be in a fit state to use it. But no matter, just as Gothmog prepares to ill her, Aragorn's attack sweeps past and Gothmog is first wounded by Gimli then decapitated by Aragorn. The attack sweeps on leaving Eowyn and Merry behind, without anyone seeming to realise who they have just passed.
The article complains that this movie treatment seems to lessen Eowyn's battlefield achievement. I agree, and was a bit baffled by that bit of the film too. But I raising it now because I wonder whether it doesn't work as a metaphor for how Eowyn feels now - Aragorn has saved her (by healing powers instead of sword work) and has now swept on...

~~~~~~

Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 4 2016, 10:38am

Post #7 of 12 (1463 views)
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1, 2 and 3 [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Would it be better to divide these major sections in two chapters? Why do you think Tolkien combined them?

Pace. I think the Eowyn/Faramir romance needs to be set up quickly, so as not to bog the story down. But also, no sooner have they decided to spend the limited time before the end of the world together, than they are the ideal characters through which we can see the eagle arrive with good news.

2. I would expect an army such as this to have daily riders going between them and the City. Are they really not communicating at all?
Complete lack of information works well dramatically - like you I wonder how realistic it would be militarily.

3. What have the people in Minas Tirith been doing while the Host of the West has been on its expedition, other than grieving and worrying?
Repairs after the siege and battle and preparing for further attacks. The army around which the Rohirrim slipped is still out there to the West, and either an organized attack or raids by hungry deserters would be possible.

~~~~~~

Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


CuriousG
Half-elven


Oct 4 2016, 12:40pm

Post #8 of 12 (1457 views)
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Agreed that the romance needs to happen fast for pacing reasons. [In reply to] Can't Post

On first read, I was really surprised to come to this part of the story at all. The Big Bad Guy has just been defeated, the major characters of the Fellowship are reunited, and then we come to a couple of minor characters having an on-again, off-again romance???? It was quite drawn out compared to the other romances we see (Aragorn + Arwen is already a done deal; Sam will say "hi" to Rosie, blush, and that's about all we see of that pairing).

I do appreciate the story, and I like the characters, but it seemed out of place at first. It does make a good story to come back to and read on its own, especially because I think Eowyn's arc is one of the most psychological and worth reading more than once--there's a lot going on in her head.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 4 2016, 3:12pm

Post #9 of 12 (1441 views)
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One chapter or two - where to put it (them) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

This chapter is divided into two major sections, as suggested by its title: a warm account of the meeting of Faramir and Éowyn in the Houses of Healing, and a more distanced celebration of the coronation of King Aragorn and his subsequent marriage to Arwen Undómiel. I will have several posts, the total TBD.

1. Would it be better to divide these major sections in two chapters? Why do you think Tolkien combined them?


In its published place, the Eowyn-Faramir romance is part of the denouement, a brief flash-back to interrupt the story of Aragorn's return to Minas Tirith for his coronation. I think that works, but perhaps it does enhance a sense that the romance proceeds very swiftly (and so, perhaps the criticism that it all unfolds a bit neatly).

So, what are the alternatives? Part 1, the romance, could I suppose appear earlier, so that Eowyn and Faramir are waiting, as we readers still are, to find out what becomes of Aragorn and his army.

That's pretty much what Peter Jackson did in the ROTK film - we get Eowyn and Faramir after Aragron's army has ridden off, and while Frodo and Sam are still on the way to Mount Doom (we cut from Eowyn and Faramir to Sam and Frodo being mistaken for orcs and force-marched: something that happens in The Land Of Shadow).

~~~~~~

Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers)
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709


A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 4 2016, 6:49pm

Post #10 of 12 (1424 views)
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"Are you there yet? Are you there yet? Are you there yet?..." [In reply to] Can't Post

“I, the proconsul, send greetings to the consuls, praetors, tribunes of the plebs and the Senate. If you [and your children] are well, it is good. I and the army are well.”
-Cassius Dio, Roman History LXIX
(Customary form of salutation in messages from a Roman military leader to Rome)


1. Would it be better to divide these major sections in two chapters?

Hmmm. Another chapter means more writing, which means a longer book.

Indeed, if Tolkien had split all his chapters in two LOTR could well have been twice as long…

Heck, yeah! It’d be a great idea!!


Why do you think Tolkien combined them?

I think noWizardme has the crux of it: It shows the anxiety of those who wait paralleled with those they are waiting on. On the other hand if he was going to do that then showing Arwen at Rivendell might have served the story better. On the other other hand Tolkien couldn’t fit in the tale of Aragorn and Arwen because he wanted to preserve the hobbitocentric nature of the narrative, in which case which hobbit knows about what’s going on between Faramir and Eowyn in the Houses of Healing? The obvious answer is Merry. On the other other other hand, Bilbo was in Rivendell so surely he could have shown the anguish of Arwen as well.

Basically I guess Tolkein was just tying up loose ends so people wouldn’t say “Plot hole! Plot hole!” and he thought this one more important than the “Eagles fly the Ring to Mordor” one.


2. I would expect an army such as this to have daily riders going between them and the City.

If you don’t know why not, then ask Hirgon the errand-rider. If you can’t find Hirgon the errand-rider, then you know why not.

Remember, they’re travelling though lands recently occupied by Mordor. Indeed, on the fourth day they’re attacked by Orcs and Easterlings. And Nazgul begin regular flyovers. Aragorn wouldn’t want to chance the life of a rider in such bad odds for such little benefit.

Of course another thing would be who exactly does Aragorn send the messages to? Faramir is sick, so probably the Council of Gondor or some other group of surviving bureaucrats, some of whom might still be loyal to Denethor, or worse, spys of Sauron?

And then a message invites a response. From the nitpicky (“Please find recently promulgated regulations on how to display the King’s Banner in relation to the Banner of Gondor, the Banner of Rohan, and the banners of vassal states.”) to the micromanaging (“Please send by daily messenger a full report of distance travelled with explanations of any delays, the status of stores with results of investigations into any shortages, and detailed list of daily sick calls.”) to the panicked (“Help!!! Come back!!! A watchman thinks he saw an orc near the walls!!!”) to the outright stupid (“So how’s the diversion going? Think Sauron will fall for it? Hopefully the obbit-hay will be able to ow-thray the ing-ray into ount-may oom-day while you’re attacking the ack-blay ate-gay.”)


Are they really not communicating at all?

Many military units deliberately go incommunicado during war to avoid having to deal with nonsense from the rear echelon.


3. What have the people in Minas Tirith been doing while the Host of the West has been on its expedition, other than grieving and worrying?

Primary concerns would be hygiene and security: clearing the battlefield of corpses and repairing the gates of Minas Tirith. Additionally the bureaucrats of the previous administration are doubtless burning now inconvenient records. Some aged nobles too old to be drafted into the Morannon expedition are surely researching a legal reversal of the highly irregular return the king, if not garnering support for an outright coup. (“If only the king would send daily messages detailing his location. As it is he could be at the Morannon, or just half a day’s march from the city! How can one plot a re-reorganization of government with such uncertainty!”)


4. How much do you think Éowyn and Faramir have been told about how they were healed, and by whom?

I’m sure Ioreth told them how they got there, how they were healed, who healed them, how long they were out, who all the other people in the ward were, what those people’s problems and treatments were, the history and side-effects of all the medications everyone was taking, the names and description of all the visitors to the Houses, her personal opinion on the new king, her hopes and fears of the war, all about her visiting kinswoman from Imloth Melui, and then asked whether either of them wanted an extra pillow.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Oct 4 2016, 8:15pm

Post #11 of 12 (1411 views)
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To: Lord Húrin, Commander-in-Charge, Gondor Defense Force [In reply to] Can't Post

March 19. We camped for the night 5 miles beyond Osgiliath. We were gratified to find work in progress strengthening the ferries and boat-bridges left by the Enemy, and constructing additional defenses. All is well so far.

They're pacifying the area as they go, and loudly proclaiming the King Elessar, which is hardly traveling incommunicado. Or they could use carrier pigeons. Whatever.

You're dead right, re Ioreth.








InTheChair
Rohan

Oct 4 2016, 10:19pm

Post #12 of 12 (1399 views)
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Dead orcsies be smelly. [In reply to] Can't Post

2. I would expect an army such as this to have daily riders going between them and the City. Are they really not communicating at all?

They might have sent riders to whoever was in comman of the city (Lord Hurin?), but he unless they were news of importance might choose not to pass them on to the people. In probability the anxiety must have come from expecting a result of a battle. Either victory and great joy or defeat and death and darkness.



3. What have the people in Minas Tirith been doing while the Host of the West has been on its expedition, other than grieving and worrying?
Repairing and healing. Clearing up the battlefield of bodies maybe. Burials, burnings stuff like that. That marshal of Rohan, Elfhelm, had been clearing up some in the north too, but that might have been before the army left for Mordor, can't remember now.

 
 

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