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DainPig
Gondor
Sep 30 2016, 2:24am
Post #1 of 43
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Why do people deslike the idea of Azog being still live in The Hobbit? You expected to have Azog dead and his son, Bolg, seeking revenge? Well, I think this is not how an orc would act. Orcs do not have family honor, as far as I know. They do not have this "oh, you killed my father, I loved him so much!" thing, at least not as the other species.
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Sep 30 2016, 2:47am
Post #2 of 43
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I don't know, does it take away from Dain, since he killed Azog in the books?
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I always follow my job through.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 3:40am
Post #3 of 43
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Bolg could have been the main villain in the first part of the films. He might not particularly mourn the death of his father, but he might see it as a stain on his own reputation and as an insult to the Orcs of Gundabad that must be avenged.
However, with Azog dead, Jackson needs a new general for his second army. He could have given Bolg a son of his own because so many folks have reacted so well to his inventing new characters for these movies. 
On the other hand, the second general (Bolg Jr.?) could have also rallied the goblins of the Misty Mountains after the death of the Great Goblin as well as commanding the Gundabad Orcs.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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LittleHobbit
Lorien
Sep 30 2016, 4:58am
Post #4 of 43
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Because people, especially useless Tolkien purists...
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are idiots and try to find fault in anything.
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 30 2016, 5:18am
Post #5 of 43
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But in terms of story, I think it works out far better to have it be Azog. Azog is the one who was occupying Moria, who killed Thror and possibly Thrain, who vowed to wipe out the line of Durin. Why then would I care about Bolg nearly as much, if he's the main villain, since he has no emotional connection to Thorin other than being Azog's son? What did Bolg do to deserve that spot? If you're going to have a main villain chasing them, then fighting them in the Battle at the end, it should be the one who has all that emotional and historical connection.
Like you said, the best you can have in terms of emotion and drama with Azog dead and Bolg as the main villain is the revenge angle. Not nearly as good as what Azog was able to give.
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 30 2016, 5:20am
Post #6 of 43
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Does that really matter, with a character who shows up at the very end of the story? I'd much rather have Azog alive with all the drama that has, over giving a minor character a kill credit to his name.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 1:11pm
Post #7 of 43
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I don't think that there's much more than a handful of Tolkien purists on the forums; and even most of those will acknowledge that at least a few liberties must usually be taken when adapting a novel to the screen.
Allowing Azog to survive to become part of the main story does diminish the contributions of Dain Ironfoot (he isn't even responsible now for maiming the Orc); however, we don't even learn about Dain's actons at the Battle of Azanulbizar in The Hobbit or even in the main text of The Lord of the Rings; it is a story that is told in LotR Appendix A. And losing that story shouldn't have a butterfly-effect on the history of the Third Age in the same way as should imprisoning the Ringwraiths in secret tombs. Oh, wait...!
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 30 2016, 2:04pm
Post #8 of 43
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Well, I don't know whether orcs have family honour or not....
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... though they don't seem to be particularly honourable. Otaku's point about them acting out of a sense of injured pride rather than love of family makes sense, I think. And it was Tolkien who sparked the idea of Bolg's revenge by the words he gave Gandalf; "Bolg of the North is coming, O Dain! whose father you slew in Moria." It makes that link between them even if it falls short of mentioning revenge.
That said, I think the use of Azog in the film adaptation was reasonable. They needed two orc captains. They could have invented the second one as they invented Lurtz, but that would have risked the complication of another prominent invented character with an invented backstory. And why go to all that trouble when there's a second powerful goblin with a grievance against dwarves named in The Hobbit and related to Bolg? Azog is mentioned in the Unexpected Party as the killer of Thror and Thorin curses his name. That would have been a gift to any screen writer, I think, because it helps to establish who Thorin is and what his family have suffered. It changes Tolkien's timelines, but then, adaptations do that when they need to. It devalues Dain - but Dain is a difficult character to do much with in the film because he doesn't appear until the end. Like Fortinbras in Hamlet; a stranger comes in at the end and inherits the kingdom. In the first two films it's far more important to develop Thorin.
I don't mind what they did with Azog - though I am very glad they avoided some of the more lurid possibilities people here were imagining - Azog the re-animated corpse and so on. I'm sure people who don't like it have all sorts of reasons, and I don't know that depriving Bolg of his revenge is really one of them! But they can tell you that.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 30 2016, 2:54pm
Post #9 of 43
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A problem with villains in general
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A lot of times, villains are just one-dimensional beings whose only real purpose is to be the villain. PJ DID give Azog a reason to go after Thorin in particular, but other than that we've no idea why he wanted to "wipe out the line of Durin." I get the idea from Tolkien's writing (and what I've read is pretty limited) that Orcs are just evil beings who revel in death and destruction. So I think someone/something like that would be quick to anger and want revenge just for the sake of it - it's already part of their nature. Being as I'm less familiar with "The Hobbit" book as others, the fact that Azog was alive didn't bother me. However, I question the need for three main villains - Azog, Bolg, and Sauron, who was really giving the marching orders. I understand WHY PJ did that - if you're going to have a Battle of 5 Armies, then you really need 5 distinct armies, so two divisions of Orcs from two different areas led by two different generals does make sense. I think it could have been done with Bolg and just some other Orc who might get a name but not his own grudge-match with Leggy; just the same marching orders as Bolg. Would it have been better? I dunno, but I could see it.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 30 2016, 3:01pm
Post #10 of 43
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I vaguely remember a mention in "The Hobbit" book that Bolg is the son of Azog. If I'm reading you correctly, the fight at Azanulbizar isn't even mentioned in "The Hobbit?" If that is true then the movie really isn't robbing Dain of his moment, if it wasn't mentioned in the book - at least not the way I see it. Funny, I always had a problem with Dain just showing up at the last minute & getting everything, but the movies have really helped me get past that perception, even if he was robbed of his glory moment.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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DainPig
Gondor
Sep 30 2016, 3:06pm
Post #11 of 43
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I think Azog wanted to wipe out the Durins simply because one of them cut his arm off and defeated his army. Azog made that oath after Anazulbizar (correct name?).
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Sep 30 2016, 3:49pm
Post #12 of 43
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The second general could have been a Warg
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Since in the book, the two villainous armies are explicitly identified as Goblins and Wargs, I think it would have been interesting to have a Warg army in the film. This would allow Bolg to have his rightful place as leader of the Orcs and present the audience with a very different army. As it is, to me the two armies in the movie just comes across as Orcs and more Orcs, with nothing to really distinguish them.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 3:55pm
Post #13 of 43
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I acknowledged in my own post that we only know Dain from The Hobbit as Thorin's cousin from the Iron Hills who brings his own army of 500 dwarves just in time for the Battle of Five Armies and succeeds Thorn as King under the Mountain. Dain's background (and ultimate fate) is only fleshed out in the LotR Appendices.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 3:56pm
Post #14 of 43
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Since in the book, the two villainous armies are explicitly identified as Goblins and Wargs, I think it would have been interesting to have a Warg army in the film. This would allow Bolg to have his rightful place as leader of the Orcs and present the audience with a very different army. As it is, to me the two armies in the movie just comes across as Orcs and more Orcs, with nothing to really distinguish them.
It would be too hard to give a Warg a personality and screen presence. Though perhaps a Warg army could have been led by a Werewolf. PJ could give it a bipedal form and the ability to speak.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 30 2016, 3:59pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 30 2016, 4:43pm
Post #15 of 43
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We practically had an army of Trolls in the movie. They are so big that there wouldn't need to be that many of them, plus Trolls can be more sentient than what was portrayed during the battle. We had Tom, Bert & William setting up a camp, raiding a farmhouse & hoarding some loot. Their motivation could simply be the gold in the mountain - just a thought!
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Legomir
Rivendell
Sep 30 2016, 5:29pm
Post #16 of 43
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When he turned around on Weathertop in AUJ I think I actually whispered, "Oh that's cool." Somehow i missed the foreshadowing that he'd come back.
I think it works great for Thorin. It's better to have Thorin's nemesis be the guy who killed his grandfather, as opposed to the son of the guy who killed his grandfather. I guess it might take away from Dain, but who would we rather have the connection the main villain? I minor character (as far as the movies are concerned) like Dain, or the secondary protagonist?
And they still managed to give Bolg a pretty memorable part in the film, leading the armies from Gundabad including the goblins, just like the book.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 5:31pm
Post #17 of 43
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We practically had an army of Trolls in the movie. They are so big that there wouldn't need to be that many of them, plus Trolls can be more sentient than what was portrayed during the battle. We had Tom, Bert & William setting up a camp, raiding a farmhouse & hoarding some loot. Their motivation could simply be the gold in the mountain - just a thought!
Maybe if their general was an Olog-hai, but I'm not thrilled with the idea of a separate army of Trolls.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 30 2016, 6:07pm
Post #18 of 43
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I think the danger with any of these things....
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..warg army with werewolf in charge, troll army with - whoever - in charge is that they would have run the risk of being a distraction from the story. (Some would say, another distraction!) Any new character has to be set up in some way. As with Lurtz - we saw him 'hatched' and immediately kill one of Saruman's minions. Then we saw him given his mission by Saruman. It fitted in with the scenes that exposed what Saruman was really up to but it also gave us the message that Saruman's Uruk-in-charge was a nasty piece of work. They would have had to introduce any other new orc leader for the Hobbit in a similar way.
Azog was a better bet, I think, because at the cost of a major change to his timeline and to Dain's story, they gained a natural opening to show a whole swathe of dwarf history and of Thorin's family history in introducing Azog. He was then able to stay with them through the first film and to provide a link to Dol Guldur in the second and third. I know there's a lot of disagreement about whether the cost was worth it, I just can't think of any invented character who could have fulfilled all the functions in the film version of the story that Azog does.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 6:42pm
Post #19 of 43
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Neither one of those armies were my idea, though the Warg army at least has a basis in the text of the book. I'm just giving my thoughts on how they might actually be made to work on film. I agree with you that neither seems very promising from a filmmaker's point-of-view. Some ideas just work better in print than on film.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 30 2016, 8:41pm
Post #20 of 43
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I dont know why people are so hung up on this Tolkin guy anyway. Peter Jackson is a geinus and he knows what he is doing
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 9:10pm
Post #21 of 43
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Tolkien purists are *not* useless!
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They help with the post count.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 30 2016, 9:15pm
Post #22 of 43
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is post count important?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 9:23pm
Post #23 of 43
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is post count important?
It is to advertisers.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Sep 30 2016, 9:24pm)
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2ndBreffest
Lorien
Sep 30 2016, 9:31pm
Post #24 of 43
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but they must not like when people say mean things about PJs movies tho cuz that kind of is what they are selling.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 30 2016, 9:48pm
Post #25 of 43
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They just want a high count.
Besides, what with priming, subliminal advertising, careful selection of DVD case color, and blind impulse buying many purists will be wondering just why they're overdrawn at the bank and how the heck a $351 Middle Earth Six Film Limited Collectors Edition got on their bookshelf.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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