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Fereth
Rivendell
Sep 25 2016, 1:44pm
Post #51 of 98
(1743 views)
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She's had 600 years to train, after all.
And anyway, it's not like she's out-performing Legolas or Thranduil. She got the crap kicked out of her by Bolg where Legolas defeated him rather easily.
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 25 2016, 2:07pm
Post #52 of 98
(1735 views)
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a small cameo by Legolas would have been ok...maybe even a couple scenes. Tauriel made no sense whatsoever.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 2:30pm
Post #53 of 98
(1722 views)
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In the spider sequence she did stuff that Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli never did in the (realistic!) LOTR trilogy! That is my problem. It undermines what brilliant warriors Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli were!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 2:32pm
Post #54 of 98
(1720 views)
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I might have been ok with the addition of an invented female elf for a few scenes as long as she didn't influence the story!!!!!!! But she did. Far too much.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 25 2016, 3:06pm
Post #55 of 98
(1713 views)
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To be fair, Tauriel had been conceived as a precociously talented fighter right from the first--from when the character was still being called Itaril. You may still object to the characterization, but it didn't just appear completely out of nowhere. The attraction to Kili is another story.
[ITARIL] FEMALE, A WOODLAND ELF, this character is one the Silvan Elves. The Silvan Elves are seen as more earthy and practical. Shorter than other elves, she is still quick and lithe and physically adept, being able to fight with both sword and bow. Showing promise as a fighter at a young age, ITARIL was chosen to train to become part of the Woodland King’s Guard. This is the only life she has ever expected to live, until she meets and secretly falls in love with a young ELF LORD. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may also be required. LEAD. AGE: 17-27. ACCENT – STANDARD R.P.
Link: http://collider.com/...the-hobbit-revealed/
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 25 2016, 3:09pm)
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 3:10pm
Post #56 of 98
(1695 views)
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She's hardly just 'showing promise'!!!!! I feel that she is far too skillful to be realistic, especially for a 'lowly Silvan elf'
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 3:13pm
Post #57 of 98
(1691 views)
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Don't get me started on the Tauriel-Kili-Legolas stuff. We only see an elf falling in love with a mortal in a two places in the Silmarillion and once in the LOTR. I could not believe PJ had the audacity to interfere with that.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 25 2016, 3:28pm
Post #58 of 98
(1681 views)
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Itaril/Tauriel was already showing promise when she was quite young. She would have had centuries of training in which to hone her skills and abilities. And her teachers might have included both Legolas and his father. Here is her original love interest (neither Human nor Dwarf):
[ELF WARRIOR] An ELF-LORD of RIVENDELL. Tall and good-looking, he is very athletic and comes from a noble family. Wry and dry, with a sharp sense of humour, when forced into battle however, he is deadly with both sword and bow. Like all his race, he is a master horseman. This role will require a wig and contact lenses to be worn. Some prosthetic make-up may be required. LEAD. AGE: 20-30. ACCENT - STANDARD R.P.
Link: http://www.movies.spoilertv.com/...it-casting-call.html
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 25 2016, 3:34pm)
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 3:31pm
Post #59 of 98
(1672 views)
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Yeah I know Glorfindel had a horse, but I've never heard him called a master horseman!! Where did that come from?????
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 25 2016, 3:36pm
Post #60 of 98
(1662 views)
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Yeah I know Glorfindel had a horse, but I've never heard him called a master horseman!! Where did that come from?????
For that you would have to ask Peter Jackson, Guillermo del Toro, Fran Walsh or Philippa Boyens.
The young ELF-LORD never seems to have received a name before the character was abandoned, though I doubt that he was a character mentioned by name in The Lord of the Rings. I suppose that he could have been intended to be Lindir, but that doesn't seem likely to me.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 25 2016, 3:49pm)
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LittleHobbit
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 3:38pm
Post #61 of 98
(1663 views)
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You think the LOTR trilogy was realistic? Aside from obvious stuff like hobbits, elves and dwarves don't exist, the LOTR trilogy is COMPLETELY unrealistic in just about every fight/battle/war scenes throughout all the three movies. Helms's Deep/Pelennor Fields had laughable war tactics (or no tactics at all) and literally an entire BOOK could be written about unrealistic scenes in ROTK and the Pelennor Fields sequence especially.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 4:49pm
Post #62 of 98
(1645 views)
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Ok, seriously, what's unrealistic about hobbits? 
I know the Legolas and the Oliphaunt/skateboard sequences were unrealistic, but apart from that I feel the LOTR trilogy was about as realistic as a ~2003~ movie about magic rings, hobbits, dark lords etc could be.
I'm curious to know what was wrong with the war tactics (coming from a person with zero knowledge of such things)
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 4:52pm
Post #63 of 98
(1644 views)
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why we needed a romance in The Hobbit at all! I don't see the point. 
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 25 2016, 5:19pm
Post #64 of 98
(1637 views)
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Of course there was no pressing need for any romance, but any well-developed character should have a life beyond the demands of a story's plot--including supporting characters that we actually get to know a bit. A love-life is one way (though far from the only way) in which to do that. If such a development can create a connection between two or more characters, all the better.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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StingingFly
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 5:22pm
Post #65 of 98
(1632 views)
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I agree, this contributed to my annoyance with the character as well.
In DOS Tauriel is the greatest fighter in Middle Earth. She kills every enemy in sight without effort. She never gets close to getting hit. She even outperforms Legolas! Remember, she saves Legolas from being killed.
On top of this, she is the smartest person in Middle Earth, showing greater wisdom than Thranduil and Legolas (in seeing the need for intervention) and better judgement than Gandalf (as he bumbles into Dol Guldur and is captured).
Oh, and she has the healing powers of Elrond too...although I hope Elrond wasn't doing to Frodo what she was doing to Kili in the "healing" scene.
I think the filmmakers realized how ridiculously OP the character was and brought her back down to earth in BOTFA. DOS Tauriel would have owned Bolg...easily.
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 5:25pm
Post #66 of 98
(1632 views)
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But character development shouldn't come before the story - the romance really annoyed me, and I hated the way Kili died to save her. It was also rather badly done...
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 25 2016, 5:27pm
Post #67 of 98
(1627 views)
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Agree completely. The healing scene undermines Elrond's powers.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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DainPig
Gondor
Sep 25 2016, 5:38pm
Post #68 of 98
(1628 views)
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"But character development shouldn't come before the story "
[In reply to]
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Can't Post
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Try again.
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Sep 26 2016, 2:05am
Post #69 of 98
(1596 views)
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Next step: making Thorin's fight to the death with Azog the climax of the battle meant that they had to find another way for Fili and Kili to die. Defending their uncle with shield and body was only possible if Thorin had gone down first.
The defenders (with shield and body) will generally go first and in fact, that's what happened in the book as Thorin is still alive when they find their bodies and only dies after bidding farewell to Bilbo.
PJ could have filmed just as exciting an ending (and even kept the non-canon Azog blood feud) by staying true to the book; he chose not to. I disagree that he HAD to step away from the book as many other films have shown precisely this kind of action without making the specific scenes "crowded and chaotic" but I presume he felt doing so gave him more of the tension and drama he wanted. Sometimes directorial decisions to deviate from the book or story work, sometimes they don't. Obviously, some people like PJ's decisions in this and other matters and some don't.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 26 2016, 8:52am
Post #70 of 98
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Yes, in the book Thorin is still alive.....
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...but fatally wounded, 'pierced with spears'. His nephews died 'defending him with shield and body' - which implies to me that by that stage Thorin was no longer able to defend himself, or he would have been fighting alongside them. He goes down, they jump in in front of him to prevent the killing blow. So yes, Fili and Kili would have died first in the book as they do in the film.
But I think that what I said still stands. The choice Peter Jackson made to have Thorin fatally wounded in what is effectively single combat with Azog, and to place his death on the battlefield as the climax of the battle, with only Bilbo to witness it meant that they had to find another way for Fili and Kili to die. If Thorin had already killed Azog but taken the fatal blow in doing so, what was there for the brothers to do?
And yes, of course it was a choice and there were any number of ways Peter Jackson could have filmed the battle and the death scenes. He chose this way. Just last night I was watching the Azanulbizar scenes in AUJ. They give a realistic presentation of battle on the flat and looking at them I think I can see exactly what Alan Lee meant and why Peter Jackson chose not to go that way for the main battle. While they do isolate individual fights within the whole battle the effect IS crowded and it IS chaotic, with far too much to distract the eye. It might have been handled very differently, as you say, but I can't judge whether that would have worked better or have been worse on screen because no one has actually tried to do it. It's very easy to say that it could have been made just as exciting if you're not the one actually charged with making it!
I simply prefer to engage with the film as it is. I would have liked to see Fili and Kili die together, fighting, but am still moved by the way they do die in the film. I would have liked to see Beorn carry Thorin's body off the battlefield; as it is, I just imagine it. The one change I really do think is an improvement on the book, in film terms, is the placing of Thorin's death scene on Ravenhill, with only Bilbo beside him. In order to get that scene I can see that other changes had to be made.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 26 2016, 4:11pm
Post #71 of 98
(1550 views)
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I honestly can say in the ~20 times I've watched the ROTK, the background battle scenes have never distracted me from the Eowyn - Witch-King duel . If the Thorin-Azog fight was exciting enough we wouldn't be distracted, it wouldn't be crowded and chaotic, even if it did happen in the middle of the battlefield.
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 26 2016, 4:15pm
Post #72 of 98
(1541 views)
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I don't understand what you mean..
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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Ingwion
Lorien
Sep 26 2016, 4:25pm
Post #73 of 98
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I feel the whole lot of the Azog stuff distracts from the actual story - 13 dwarves and a hobbit trying to reclaim Erebor!
I can only assume PJ was trying to make it appeal to a wider audience or something - trying to make it more exciting or something
It was a foggy day in London, and the fog was heavy and dark. Animate London, with smarting eyes and irritated lungs, was blinking, wheezing, and choking; inanimate London was a sooty spectre, divided in purpose between being visible and invisible, and so being wholly neither. - Our Mutual Friend, Charles Dickens.
It is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Ilúvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen. - The Silmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 26 2016, 5:37pm
Post #74 of 98
(1528 views)
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I think Peter Jackson just wanted another orc leader because he was going to have two orc armies in the final battle. The book gave him Bolg leading from Gundabad, he needed someone else to lead the army from Dol Guldur (having decided to have an army from Dol Guldur).
He could have invented an orc as he did with Lurtz in Fellowship. He could have had Sauron lead (I'm glad he didn't pick that option, but some people here thought he would). He could have used a Nazgul. He chose instead to give a new lease of life to Azog because Azog had a history with the dwarves and they liked his name and the tag 'the Defiler'.
For what it's worth, I'd say Azog doesn't detract from the story of Bilbo and the dwarves going to Erebor because he goes a large part of the way with them - he just intensifies the danger. And snarls rather a lot....
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 26 2016, 6:25pm
Post #75 of 98
(1517 views)
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I think they made the right choice in not having Beorn carry Thorin's body from Ravenhill. There is space to imagine it if you want, but to visually see it would have been detrimental to the emotion of the scene.
That's the time for the Company to mourn them privately. Even Bilbo and Gandalf are sitting a good respectable distance away. For the Company to be kneeling and mourning like that, then a giant man or bear walks up into the group of them, picks up Thorin, and starts walking away is just too intrusive.
Then there's my question of what right does Beorn have to carry Thorin off the battlefield like that? He has no personal connection to dwarves or Thorin. I can't see it as his place to do that. If the movie did show someone carrying Thorin, it should be the Company or Iron Hill soldiers.
"I simply prefer to engage with the film as it is." Definitely agree with this, and wish more people would think this way when it comes to adaptations. What matters to me is does what the movie did work for the movie. As long as it makes sense, I don't care to compare exactly how it happened in book.
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