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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 20 2016, 8:28pm
Post #1 of 38
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Moana, Maui and Maoris
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I am a long time Disney fan, so am voyaging the interwebs in anticipation of the new Moana film.
I've been wearing a hei matau since a kayaking buddy gifted me with it. For me it is a symbol of "Middle Earth" and its original peoples, the Maori. I knew very little about their mythology and culture (except for "Whale Rider") until recently. I've been trying to learn a bit about the overall Polynesian culture so I'm not one of those clueless folks of European ancestry who just go "that was a pretty movie..."
One of the discussions online has been the portrayal of Maui, a major hero of Polynesian myth. Should he look like The Rock? Like Thor (the Hemsworth version)? Instead he has been panned as "obese" to which many (including an excellent Samoan comic book artist) have replied vehemently that he is an icon of Big Powerful Mythic Proportions and Protective Guardianship of Teen Adventurers (I rather agree, despite my personal preference for the lean and wiry Elvish type). He is built much like King Fergus of "Brave", and Stoick the Vast of "How to Train Your Dragon, both fathers and chieftains of heroic, mythic, proportions, broad but muscular. A different type than our modern cut and defined bodybuilders. The more I look at the trailers and the original myths, the more I like the Disney version of Maui too.
I blogged about it here:
https://swordwhale.wordpress.com/2016/09/17/really-big-stuff/
https://swordwhale.wordpress.com/2016/09/16/moana-and-really-huge-guys/
So, what do you think?
Can you barely wait for November? Do you just go "meh"? Are you living in the Land of the Maoris and have an opinion based on a closer knowledge of Polynesian culture? Do you think Disney will blow it? Get it mostly right?
I'm hoping Disney did a fair job of portraying the culture, and the insanely cool skills of those oceanic voyagers who navigated across Planet Ocean. As a kayaker, I have a general idea of how the shape of the water changes its feel, how you pay attention to the shape of wind and tide and current. But the folks who sailed double hulled canoes (much like today's catamarans) across half a planet had a feel for the natural world most of us have never known. Fortunately a few people still maintain some of these ancient skills.
I found a few great short videos on Maori/Maui myth here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6q8E1laQjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyY1caNo50s
Let me know what you all think, what you hope to see in Moana.
As for me, I already ordered a doll...
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Sep 21 2016, 11:16am
Post #3 of 38
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It's a no-win situation for Disney. For years they were criticized for only making movies about white European princesses but as soon as they started making movies about other cultures they got slammed for being white people making movies about other cultures. They really should just stick to animal cartoons.
Little kids look cuter in animal costumes anyway. 
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 21 2016, 2:09pm
Post #4 of 38
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I'm rooting for the first kid who shows up on a Halloween doorstep in the tattooed Maui suit... Preferably with friends dressed as Thor and Loki. Then they can hit all the mythologies.
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 21 2016, 2:19pm
Post #5 of 38
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I see where they're coming from.. at the same time i want to see some kid dressed as Maui, with his friends Thor and Loki.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
Part of the problem here is we still have that element of European colonial "explorers" who saw themselves as superior to nature and to "primitive cultures". The mainstream culture sees Maui as myth, Polynesians see him as something far far more. How do we let Disney make kids and everyone aware of these fabulous cultures, then go beyond the cartoon to the real people and stories?
I've seen this in the Native American community. Everybody wants to wear a T-shirt with an "Indian maiden" and a wolf on it (one writer I read said something like "if you do art with a wolf in it do you know what it means to us? What it symbolizes?"). Everybody wants to make dreamcatchers and sell them at the craft show. Or do Native inspired art. And there is a point where this is absolutely cultural appropriation. Where do we draw the line in our capitalistic society?
The indigenous voices need to shout a bit louder and make sure people hear their side.
Reblogging that link.
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 21 2016, 2:41pm
Post #6 of 38
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I've heard this from Native American people... "you can't write about anything but yourself and your experiences".
Um, sorry, that's called imagination and research, though I can't write a story from the point of view of an African American or Polynesian or whoever, I can put them in my story and they can speak their viewpoint and tell their story.
Me, helping some friends do an educational program about Native Americans... "So, you're like Tribe Wannabe?"
Eh, no... I can't tell your story from your viewpoint, I don't have your experience. But I can come halfway, to a consensus, I can hear your side, I can pass it on, tell that story.
We need Disney and everyone else telling these tales. We need indigenous voices telling their tales, and calling us out when we screw it up.
Really want to see Disney keep doing this.
ALso note we already have a conversation going. Hope the general public gets this.
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 21 2016, 3:45pm
Post #7 of 38
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I've seen this in the Native American community. Everybody wants to wear a T-shirt with an "Indian maiden" and a wolf on it (one writer I read said something like "if you do art with a wolf in it do you know what it means to us? What it symbolizes?").
To which I would respond that wolves have existed all over the world and are not exclusive to Native American culture. Sorry, but get over it; that ain't cultural appropriation.
Everybody wants to make dreamcatchers and sell them at the craft show. Or do Native inspired art. And there is a point where this is absolutely cultural appropriation. Where do we draw the line in our capitalistic society?
That's a better point, but I don't have an answer for it. I do see a big difference between hand-made dreamcatchers bought and sold at craft shows and a large corporation appropriating and attempting to trademark DreamKatchers (TM) for mass-production.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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Annael
Immortal
Sep 21 2016, 5:22pm
Post #8 of 38
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I have a lot of trouble with the idea of "cultural appropriation"
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as a friend recently said, "all art is cultural appropriation." Humans constantly draw from a multiplicity of influences, consciously and unconsciously, in the act of ongoing creation in every field of endeavor. Track the influences on modern rock-and-roll, for instance: Wikipedia says it comes from "combined African-American and European American rooted genres known as gospel music, blues, boogie-woogie, jump blues, jazz, rockabilly, and honky tonk music (which derives from Western swing and country music [NOTE: which in itself was heavily influenced by both Celtic folk and African spiritual traditions])."
As a mythologist I know that religions - although fundamentalists would like to deny this - undergo a similar process of constant change over time as the culture of the practitioners is affected by outside influences. There is no such thing as a pure version of the religion or the culture, and the idea that one can "preserve" such a pure version is like saying that one can stop a river from flowing (even if you dam it, it WILL find a way around!).
To bring it back to Tolkien, I'm reminded of those "purists" who insisted that a movie version would "ruin the book." Nonsense. The book remains what it was; no words have changed on the printed page. The objection really is, I suspect, that people who have not read the book will think that PJ's version is the same as Tolkien's story.
Yes, making a dreamcatcher doesn't mean you understand one thing about the Navajo attitude towards creation. I'm sure most Christians would be offended by people using the symbol of the cross without the slightest understand of what the cross represents to believers. But it doesn't follow that their own religion is in any way diminished by the misconceptions of outsiders. If that were true no religion or cultural tradition would survive for very long.
I think the opposite is true: that the traditions that survive do so by constant response and adaptation to the changes undergone by the culture. West Africans took their religions with them across the Middle Passage to the Americas, and when forcibly baptized as Christians and denied their old rituals, found a way to adapt the Catholic rituals to keep the old religions alive in a way that worked for their new life, and those new versions have survived to the present. One could argue that the slaves 'appropriated' Catholic rituals, but was Catholicism itself harmed?
Finally, every time this issue arises I find myself thinking, "fine. All of you who are NOT Celtic, stop celebrating May Day and Halloween, and stop wearing plaid!"
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Sep 21 2016, 5:24pm)
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Starling
Half-elven
Sep 21 2016, 6:17pm
Post #9 of 38
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to build awareness of the richness of Maori and Polynesian culture without putting on a ridiculous fake tattoo suit, or plastering offensive images of people's ancestors on shower curtains. These kinds of things are ongoing issues.
I think Disney need to stick to what they know.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 21 2016, 6:25pm
Post #10 of 38
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To bring it back to Tolkien, I'm reminded of those "purists" who insisted that a movie version would "ruin the book." Nonsense. The book remains what it was; no words have changed on the printed page.
Tolkien appropriation started in the 1960s:
In America, especially, Tolkien words are creeping into everyday usage; for example, mathom, meaning an article one saves but doesn't use. A senior girl at the Bronx High School of Science says: "I wrote my notes in Elvish. Even now, I doodle in Elvish. It's my means of expression."
What does Tolkien think of that? Does he like Americans? "I don't like anyone very much in that sense. I'm against generalizations." One persists. Does he like Americans? "Art moves them and they don't know what they've been moved by and they get quite drunk on it," Tolkien says. "Many young Americans are involved in the stories in a way that I am not."
"But they do use this sometimes as a means against some abomination. There was one campus, I forget which, where the council of the university pulled down a very pleasant little grove of trees to make way for what they called a 'Culture Center' out of some sort of concrete blocks. The students were outraged. They wrote 'another bit of Mordor' on it."
-Interview with Tolkien by Philip Norman of The Sunday Times, London, as published in the NYTimes, January 15, 1967
Eventually British fans felt the need to act against the American appropriation of Tolkien:
In late 1968 various people began talking about forming a British Tolkien Society (there was already one in America) in part to counter the use of Tolkien's works by the extremes of hippiedom and the author Vera Chapman advertised in December 1969's issue of New Statesman the conception of The Tolkien Society, thus it is now in its fortieth year.
-Ian Collier, Festval in the Shire, Issue #2.
The objection really is, I suspect, that people who have not read the book will think that PJ's version is the same as Tolkien's story.
I think it's a bit more egotistical. They don't object that PJ's version is not Tolkien's version, but rather it's not *their* version. I see this in The Reading Room and other book forums where some people get extremely upset and abusive when other readers have different interpretations of the text. (Balrog wings anyone?)
Finally, every time this issue arises I find myself thinking, "fine. All of you who are NOT Celtic, stop celebrating May Day and Halloween, and stop wearing plaid!"
I'm sure the Picts would have something to say about Celtic appropriation of Pictish culture as well.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 21 2016, 8:42pm
Post #11 of 38
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That fake tattoo suit is over the top, to me.
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It makes me think of that character in The Silence of the Lambs who made clothes out of people's skin.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 21 2016, 10:11pm
Post #12 of 38
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There's a US basketball player
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who has a lot of tattoos, and when his team won the NBA championship he was photographed at a celebration party without a shirt. He also went without a shirt in the championship parade. So someone created a T-shirt of his tattoed torso and sold it online.
Not at all tempted by this shirt, even though this is my hometown team, and I'm thrilled they won the championship.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Sep 21 2016, 11:33pm
Post #13 of 38
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See, that shirt just gives me the creeps.
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Also, tattoos are highly personal and I'd be offended if someone took copies of my tattoos (not that I have any, yet) and sold them for their own profit.
It's no wonder that Maori tribes are protective of their tattoos, which have different styles, stories and genealogies for each tribe.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Sep 22 2016, 12:01am
Post #14 of 38
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Kenneth MacAlpin = I do what I want! ;) //
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**********************************
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 22 2016, 12:02am
Post #15 of 38
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Disney pulls Maui costume: http://www.stuff.co.nz/...any-applaud-the-move
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 22 2016, 12:03am)
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Sep 22 2016, 12:39am
Post #16 of 38
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2016, 2:13pm
Post #18 of 38
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in my own art and writing I get more and more aware of showing the diversity of the world while not offeding anyone... but not offending anyone is kind of impossible ...
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2016, 2:20pm
Post #19 of 38
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"All art is cultural appropriation..."
Yep.
Going to keep wearing plaid and celebrating May Day too.
Though I must point out that I believe it is the Ojibway who started the whole dreamcatcher thing... then everyone else adopted it... kind of like the turquoise thing that started in the southwest, now every tribe is doing it.
We're not giving back the corn (maize), potatoes and turkeys we got from the Native AMericans either. I doubt they want to give back the ...eh...whatever we brought...
yep, cultures and religions shapeshift and borrow from each other over time.
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2016, 2:24pm
Post #20 of 38
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...or something...
The AC Moore craft store here in York PA has since last year been sporting on its shelves various tickytacky framed things or blocks of distressed wood or other things with sayings that you can hang on your wall to fill up space.
A number of them say "not all who wander are lost..."
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2016, 2:26pm
Post #21 of 38
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A Polynesian blogger shouted somewhere in the comments on that something like "our brown skin is not a costume..."
Perhaps if your kid wanted to make his own costume and draw them on... I dunno...
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 22 2016, 2:43pm
Post #22 of 38
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Yeah.... that "costume" was a bit over the top.
Hopefully the film will inspire not just cheesy spinoff stuff but kids to actually look farther into the cultures of the Pacific, the wayfinders... and maybe get people out under the stars, watching the flight paths of birds, and feeling the shape of the swells...
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Sep 23 2016, 1:48am
Post #23 of 38
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Lilo and Stich was very popular...
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...here in Hawaii, where a lot of the locals identified well with the characters. I think there's discomfort over Disney-Maui being so obese, as well as the notion of adopting brown skin.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Sep 23 2016, 5:53am
Post #24 of 38
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Although if one takes a closer look at Maui, as the Samoan artist observed, the build is actually more massively muscular than fat. Sort of epic Hulk build.
Glad to hear Lilo and Stitch was loved. It was fabulous!
Awake at a ridiculous hour due to blocked eustachian tube/earache, bleah. Suddenly thinking of Eorache frm Bored of the Rings...
bigger on the inside...
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
Member of Manure Movers Local 101, Raptor Wranglers & Rehab, and Night Fury Trainers Assoc. Owned by several cats and a very small team of maniacal sled dogs... sorry Radagast, those rabbits were delicious...
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Sep 26 2016, 2:30am
Post #25 of 38
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Maui was a demigod of the Hawaiians. Since he was always portrayed as young and a prankster, I envisioned him as being small and wiry, more like Chris Evans' Captain America or better yet, Spider-Man, than Thor or the Rock. Fergus's body would probably have been more appropriate for Ku or Lono (2 of the more senior and powerful gods).
If you want to learn more, I highly suggest Legends of Gods and Ghosts by W.D. Westervelt (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/39195) -- it was the main source of Hawaiian mythology that I read growing up.
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