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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Is Mirkwood scary?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 16 2016, 9:07pm

Post #51 of 65 (1944 views)
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What she said... [In reply to] Can't Post

Kili has it almost exactly right, except that the conversation takes place when Bard goes below to retrieve his makeshift weapons, not after he leaves.


Quote
THORIN: Tomorrow begins the last days of autumn.

BALIN: Durin's Day falls the morn after next. We must reach the Mountain before then.


And as the company prepares to leave Lake-town:


Quote
BILBO: You do know we're one short. Where's Bofur?

THORIN: If he's not here, we leave him behind.

BALIN: We'll have to. If we're to find the door before nightfall, we can risk no more delays.


It doesn't seem at all likely that Thorin would risk remaining in Esgaroth for another full day with Durin's Day so near, so it's hard to reconcile those two scenes. However, an extra day of travel only puts the company at Erebor twice as quickly as Tolkien did instead of four times as fast; and it helps explain Bilbo's line to the remaining four, when they arrive, about Thorin having been searching for the Arkenstone for days. It makes sense that it would have taken them longer to reach the Mountain (three or four days) that it did for the main group.

We probably can disregard the dates on Bard's calendar as we never get a close look at it in the film and the end of September seems far too early to be the "last days of autumn." Chances are that the company escaped from the Wood-elves and arrived at Lake-town a good three weeks later, near the end of October, to place Durin's Day at the threshold of winter.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 16 2016, 9:15pm)


StingingFly
Lorien


Sep 16 2016, 10:29pm

Post #52 of 65 (1924 views)
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Well said...the passage of time matters... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for example, consider the following scenarios.
My car broke down in a remote desert area and I had to walk for...
...3 hours to get to civilization = 'oh, that stinks'. OR
...3 days to get to civilization = 'OMG! How did you survive?!'

It wouldn't have taken much screen time to show the passing of days. I don't see this as a mistake, though, but a choice by the fim makers. I believe they decided that the journey from Bag End to Erebor was going to be an extended 'chase scene'.
To have a long, drawn-out Mirkwood involves a hiatus of the Orc's pursuit of the Company and I think they did not want to move away from that theme.


MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien

Sep 17 2016, 6:17am

Post #53 of 65 (1911 views)
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Could there be another day in there? [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems possible to me that the missing day was spent preparing to leave and having the big celebration for the Dwarves, and they left the morning after that. Nothing in the movie indicates that that happened, as it jumps from the confrontation with the Master to the boats departing, but it doesn't seem totally implausible either.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17 2016, 7:03am

Post #54 of 65 (1902 views)
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Possible... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems possible to me that the missing day was spent preparing to leave and having the big celebration for the Dwarves, and they left the morning after that. Nothing in the movie indicates that that happened, as it jumps from the confrontation with the Master to the boats departing, but it doesn't seem totally implausible either.


Indeed, that is possible. It just seems very unlikely to me that Thorin would be willing to remain so long in Esgaroth with such a tight deadline. It does undermine Bilbo's line to the Lake-town Four about Thorin if it only took the later group as little as two days to reach Erebor And I frankly dislike the idea of the company reaching the Lonely Mountain four times faster than it did in the book. Your mileage may vary.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 17 2016, 7:56am

Post #55 of 65 (1897 views)
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Was it up to Thorin? [In reply to] Can't Post

If the dwarves are promised equipment, food, and other necessaries, they would have to wait until those were provided. And if the Master wanted to make as big a show as possible and throw a banquet for them as part of the send-off, could Thorin really say no? Thorin might well have wanted to set out immediately, but the Master's agenda would affect that. Beggars can't be choosers, and all that.

I also would wish the time and distances hadn't been so reduced for the film, but I get the feeling that for whatever reason, they weren't as interested in doing travel montages as they were for LOTR.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17 2016, 2:51pm

Post #56 of 65 (1885 views)
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Delays? [In reply to] Can't Post

If there was a delay of a full day and a night then I really think that it should have been made explicit, with Thorin chomping at the bit the whole time. The fact that we didn't see this even in the extended edition of DoS argues against it even if we cannot entirely rule it out.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 17 2016, 2:51pm)


DainPig
Gondor


Sep 17 2016, 8:36pm

Post #57 of 65 (1868 views)
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How much time did they spend in Mirkwood? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to clarify things. One week?

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17 2016, 9:06pm

Post #58 of 65 (1864 views)
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The (movie) journey through Mirkwood [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
How much time did they spend in Mirkwood?


Mirkwood is about 200 miles across, and the company was on foot on the Elf-path. They made it most of the way through--say 180 miles. It the company was averaging 10 miles per day or less then it should have taken them 18 days or more. If they managed to cover 20 miles a day or more than it might have taken them a week to a week-and-a-half.

But I'm looking at this logically and not through Peter Jackson-colored glasses. For comparison, Karen Fonstad (in The Atlas of Middle-earth) estimated that the company started on the Elf-path on July 25 and was captured by the Wood-elves on August 24, a journey of 30 days.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 17 2016, 9:13pm)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 17 2016, 10:58pm

Post #59 of 65 (1853 views)
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But is that necessary? [In reply to] Can't Post

We did see that the dwarves had completely new outfits and had obviously been making an extensive night of it, to the point that Bofur got forgotten under the table. If you choose to believe that they started the party immediately upon the end of Thorin's confrontation with the Master just because they didn't explicitly say otherwise, you may. But I think it's reasonable to infer at least enough delay to muster supplies and prepare a banquet. I don't think it would really have added enough to the story to make it worth the time and expense of a special scene to spell it out. But obviously, your mileage varies.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 17 2016, 11:45pm

Post #60 of 65 (1845 views)
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Let us say, preferable. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But is that necessary?


Necessary? Technically, no. However, I feel it would have been advisable in the context of Thorin's time considerations to make explicit any delay that lasted longer than that very evening.

You seem to have no problem with Dale and Erebor being only a half-day's travel or so from Lake-town. That's okay, but I personally do have an issue with that. It's a cheat on Peter Jackson's part--like when a filmmaker doesn't play fair with the audience concerning the clues to a mystery. It breaks my willing suspension of disbelief and it undermines Bilbo's statement that indicates that Fili, Kili, Bofur and Oin arrive at Erebor several days after the death of Smaug.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 18 2016, 12:11am

Post #61 of 65 (1839 views)
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Two different things. [In reply to] Can't Post

I too would have preferred to have more distance between travel points, but that's a separate issue in my mind from showing an extra day spent in Laketown. As things stand, I don't think that an extra scene of Thorin being impatient to leave would have done much, if anything, to compensate for the already telescoped distances.

If I were to try to fix the distance issues, I would go about it in a different fashion. For one thing, I wouldn't have shown everything as being in full sight of each other. It was clearly a deliberate choice in the script and direction to cut travel in favor of action. That being the case, and having accepted that this is a fait accompli, I just don't feel the need to quibble over single scenes. It would have needed multiple different choices from the start to make enough difference to matter to me on this point.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 18 2016, 1:00am

Post #62 of 65 (1830 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I too would have preferred to have more distance between travel points, but that's a separate issue in my mind from showing an extra day spent in Laketown. As things stand, I don't think that an extra scene of Thorin being impatient to leave would have done much, if anything, to compensate for the already telescoped distances.


Agreed, but to my mind the apparent discrepancy in time should still be explained.


In Reply To
If I were to try to fix the distance issues, I would go about it in a different fashion. For one thing, I wouldn't have shown everything as being in full sight of each other. It was clearly a deliberate choice in the script and direction to cut travel in favor of action. That being the case, and having accepted that this is a fait accompli, I just don't feel the need to quibble over single scenes. It would have needed multiple different choices from the start to make enough difference to matter to me on this point.


Well, in point of fact, JRRT does describe the Lonely Mountain as visible from Lake-town. However, the Mountain probably should not have been visible from the Carrock--or should have at least appeared to be much more distant. But it is too late to make much of an issue about it.

There were two alternate approaches that PJ could have taken that would have been consistent with Balin's line about Durin's Day beginning on the morn after next.

1. The company does leave Lake-town the next morning, but it takes them a day longer to reach the Lonely Mountain. This is what I would have preferred.

2. They are shown to be delayed by an entire day in Lake-town. This is an approach that I don't like as they still arrive at Erebor far too quickly for my taste.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Sep 18 2016, 1:03am)


DainPig
Gondor


Sep 18 2016, 1:13am

Post #63 of 65 (1822 views)
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You knw something [In reply to] Can't Post

Just add the Dol Guldur scene before the leaving of Esgaroth. That would leave a feeling of how the time has passed.

[Thorin's speech to Lake-town's folk]

cut to Gandalf arrival at Dol Guldur

[Dwarves leaving Lake-town]

"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."

dainpigblog.blogspot.com

historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Sep 18 2016, 1:55am

Post #64 of 65 (1815 views)
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It might help. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Just add the Dol Guldur scene before the leaving of Esgaroth. That would leave a feeling of how the time has passed.


That wouldn't actually explain the discrepancy, but it would give the audience a breather and provide an impression that time has passed.

"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes


Yngwulff
Gondor


Nov 3 2016, 11:25pm

Post #65 of 65 (1204 views)
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Psychedelic [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked how made the leap in logic as to how the spores were making them hallucinate and confusing them.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”


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