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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 9 2016, 7:07pm
Post #1 of 82
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Is "The Hobbit" Bilbo's story?
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Probably sounds like a dumb question, but in another post Dainpig brought up a pretty good point - that the story in "The Hobbit" is actually Thorin's story as told by Bilbo. Well, I can see where he's coming from, even in the book the actual story is the quest of 13 Dwarves to break into Erebor and make off with some gold. This quest was already started when they dropped in on Bilbo, and would likely have continued if he'd refused to go along with them. On the other hand, the adventure has a profound impact on Bilbo, starting with his "Took" side taking over to finding some courage (spider fight) and ability to plan an escape/rescue, and a fateful decision that didn't do what he'd hoped it would (Arkenstone). Plus you have that whole section of the book where Bilbo interacts with Gollum, something he does separately from the Dwarves. So it could really be both, couldn't it? Of course, the movie version really pumped up Thorin as a main character (but NOT at the expense of Bilbo, something I've argued repeatedly about & will continue to do so) - he's more of a co-lead in this version, which I obviously would never complain about! 
And it's safe to say that the movie version put a stronger emphasis on their friendship than the book did, which I think is a good addition to the story.
But at the end of the day, I still think it's Bilbo's story - even if the movie presents the story as Bilbo's friendship with Thorin.
Having said that, it makes sense to me if others don't feel that way. So, what do you think? Is "The Hobbit" Bilbo's story, or Thorin's story?
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 9 2016, 7:33pm
Post #2 of 82
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At least for the movie, I can't speak for the book. But I like that, like LOTR, The Hobbit is about the hobbit hero and the lost king. The difference is that in LOTR their stories were mostly separate, and in Hobbit their stories are mostly intertwined.
But if I were to say who the movie main character was, based on where most the emotion and such comes from, it's Bilbo.
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Ringtir
Rivendell
Sep 9 2016, 7:39pm
Post #3 of 82
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I feel that is more an all characters story
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Maybe the strategy that PJ used for bringing back the mood from LOTR films (that a lot of critics ask when they saw AUJ) was to make an all characters focus
The Necromancer plot
The Elves plot
Bard and Grim... Sorry, Alfrid
Thorin and Azog
Bilbo and his journey
And the Kingdom of Erebor (thank you very much EE for a solid conclusion)
All these plots moves and ends in his individual paths. Something they cross, but each payoff doesn't alter the other ones.
(This post was edited by Ringtir on Sep 9 2016, 7:43pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 9 2016, 7:53pm
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Well, from all the pics/photos and comments I’ve seen
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here on many of the TORn boards, I have concluded that the theme of three The Hobbit movies is mainly centered on Thorin’s hair. 
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 9 2016, 8:15pm
Post #5 of 82
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and the most emotional scene is of course when Thorin is dying, and not because he is dying, but because its the only scene in the movie where his hair doesn't look fabulous.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 9 2016, 8:26pm
Post #6 of 82
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Legolas was the main character in Lord of the Rings. Seriously, the Leggy-lovers that appeared after FOTR make the Thorin Hair Brigade look quiet and tame. Go not to the fangirls for your plot summaries, for they will but sigh and squee and post even more fanart. 
I must admit, I think the Hobbit movies suffered a bit from lack of the same sort of amateur reviews that LOTR got. I'll never forget reading the blog which waxed long and lyrical about "the Bow Guy". It was excellent, if unintentional, comedy, and what it lacked in professionalism it made up in sheer enthusiasm.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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TheOnlyOneAroundWithAnySense
Rohan
Sep 9 2016, 8:29pm
Post #7 of 82
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Every bit of the post, the only difference being I can speak for the book (and, as you all know, I feel the films are better for it).
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 9 2016, 8:43pm
Post #8 of 82
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Just look!
But seriously, even I know the book wasn't about Thorin's hair - though I believe his beard featured prominently, or so I've been told.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Sep 9 2016, 8:44pm
Post #9 of 82
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The book is Bilbo's story. It is told from Bilbo's point of view, with Bilbo's thoughts and experiences coloring every nuance. We don't even see the Battle of Five Armies, because Bilbo is unconscious and his POV is the inside of his eyelids.  It's about how Bilbo loses his reputation with his neighbors, and gains something that JRRT left up to the reader to define (based on his or her own applicability, one supposes).
The movie is much more of an ensemble piece, with segments even being told when Bilbo is not present (part of Laketown, Thorin and Thranduil). Whether this is good or bad is up, once again, to the individual viewing. I feel that this approach was almost mandatory, however, since the book is not a prequel in any fashion, but the movies were filmed explicitly as a prequel. Again, good or bad is entirely up to the opinion of the individual.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 9 2016, 8:58pm
Post #10 of 82
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Here's some of my FAVORITES!!!
You know there are some very talented and imaginative people out there - I can only look in envy. Not sure if I can compete with "The Bow Guy," but I'm working on another fanvid which will hopefully explain my love & devotion to both trilogies, in a hopefully humorous way. Some day I may even get it finished, LOL!
Can't believe my own thread got derailed by my favorite subject - Thorin's hair! Where's Avandel when you need her???
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Omnigeek
Lorien
Sep 10 2016, 3:24am
Post #12 of 82
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The story doesn't begin with "In the Blue Mountains, lived a dwarf." The introduction doesn't talk about what Thorin learned (though he DID learn a valuable lesson in the end). Thorin's story is important but it's a backdrop to Bilbo's growth as a person and his importance in the tale of the Ring. It didn't start with Smaug's raid or the Battle of Moria. The actual story is NOT about the quest of 13 Dwarves, it's about Bilbo's growth as he joined said quest.
You could make a case that the trilogy as PJ filmed it was Thorin's story -- which is one reason I said before that I'd have less issue with the movies if they had been entitled "Thorin and Company: XXXX" or "The Quest for Erebor: XXXX" instead of "The Hobbit: XXXX" -- but the story of "The Hobbit" in book form is undoubtedly Bilbo's story and you really have to stretch and contort to say it's Thorin's story. The movies were much more Thorin's story with Bilbo being the add-on -- if that was Dainpig's point, then I agree with him.
Sorry, focus in a story is a zero sum game. You can't increase the focus on one or more characters without taking some away from another. The iincreased attention on Thorin and other dwarves necessarily reduced the focus on Bilbo. You can say the reduction was miniscule, acceptable, or even preferable (as it obviously was in your opinion) but you cannot factually or reasonably say it did NOT take away from Bilbo. BTW, I would say in the book that while Bilbo grew to be fond of Thorin, he had far more of a friendship with Balin and Dori. They seemed to miss the relationship between Dori and Bilbo in the movies.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 3:48am
Post #13 of 82
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Sorry, focus in a story is a zero sum game. You can't increase the focus on one or more characters without taking some away from another. The iincreased attention on Thorin and other dwarves necessarily reduced the focus on Bilbo. You can say the reduction was miniscule, acceptable, or even preferable (as it obviously was in your opinion) but you cannot factually or reasonably say it did NOT take away from Bilbo.
Well I think you can if you expand the story, which is what PJ did. I would agree with you that Legolas crowded out Beorn, but I don't believe Thorin's increased presence diminished Bilbo in the movies. Bilbo still did everything he did in the book, and then some! And Martin had some WONDERFUL moments where Thorin wasn't present: the 'Good Morning' scene, the 13 minutes with Gollum, the time with Smaug, and of course that lovely, silent moment with Gandalf after Thorin's death. I think the focus of the movie is pretty well demonstrated in the Acorn scene - you can't have Thorin without Bilbo. So I think you CAN factually and reasonably say that Thorin's increased role did NOT take away from Bilbo, not even a miniscule amount. And as for my preference, I can honestly say that, silly fangirl crush notwithstanding, I wouldn't prefer Bilbo's part get cut in the least. In fact, the scene that didn't make the movie which I would have liked to see - and I've said this before - is the scene where Bilbo tells Balin about the contest of riddles. I don't believe Thorin was even in that scene - but as I've discussed with others it would be hard to fit that scene into DOS, not sure where it would go. Again, that has nothing to do with increasing Thorin's role, more the overall script just didn't have room for it.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Sep 10 2016, 5:51am
Post #14 of 82
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They seemed to miss the relationship between Dori and Bilbo in the movies Instead we have a lovely relationship between Bofur and Bilbo, and that relationship has more screentime in the films then Bilbo and Dori had in the book.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 10 2016, 8:44am
Post #15 of 82
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you cannot factually or reasonably say it did NOT take away from Bilbo
The Hobbit is Bilbo's story. Put more precisely, it's the story of how Bilbo gained a greater understanding of himself and his place in the world through a journey he never intended to make and a series of encounters with the great and the high and the terrible - creatures, characters and places undreamed of or shunned in his cosy Shire. Telling that story on the page or on the screen would be impossible without including those creatures, characters and places. For the film they expanded the creatures, characters and places, some at the expense of others. I say they took nothing away from Bilbo.
Thorin and his company are central to Bilbo's story. It's hearing the passion, the mystery and the longing in the dwarvish song that fires Bilbo's longing for adventure - without which, there would be no story. So while I'd agree with you that the film shifted the focus of Bilbo's developing friendship with the dwarves to prominence to Thorin, (then Balin and Bofur), I can't agree with you that this took away from Bilbo. I can't see how it could, given that it is Bilbo's friendship with Thorin they expanded. Bilbo's friendship - the focus there is still firmly on Bilbo.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 1:29pm
Post #16 of 82
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Let’s get back to what’s really of significance here . . . . . THORIN’S HAIR !!!
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 10 2016, 2:05pm
Post #17 of 82
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It's acting its socks off there.....
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...if hair can be said to have socks? Can it? How long is a piece of.... sock? 
The flying locks on the right look rather like part of an Alan Lee forest.....
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Noria
Gondor
Sep 10 2016, 2:28pm
Post #18 of 82
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Yes The Hobbit, book and movie, are both Bilbo’s story.
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For me the book is Bilbo’s tale. Of course the Quest of Erebor drives the narrative because a passive individual like pre-Quest Bilbo had to be almost forcibly removed from his comfort zone. But even Thorin’s tale was as much about Bilbo as the Dwarves.
In the movies, the journey from the Bilbo we meet at the beginning of AUJ to the Hobbit he is when he returns to the Shire after the battle has been remarkably faithfully and, dare I say lovingly, chronicled and is the core of the movies. The movieverse has been enlarged to allow for the enhancement of Thorin’s story and those of Gandalf and the White Council/DolGuldur, Thranduil/Legolas/Tauriel, and Laketown/Dale but it all comes back to Bilbo in the end. Proportionately Bilbo’s story takes up less space, so to speak, than it does in the book but not because it has been truncated or abridged. If anything, it has been expanded and enriched.
There are things I would have liked to have seen more of or done differently in these movies but I can’t fault them on Bilbo’s importance and development.
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 10 2016, 5:29pm
Post #19 of 82
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And I'm pretty sure if he'd had the chance to get to the supposed rewrite people always mention, Tolkien almost certainly would have dedicated at least a page of prose to Thorin's magnificent mane.
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DainPig
Gondor
Sep 10 2016, 7:57pm
Post #20 of 82
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If you look well, my theory only applies to Dos and Botfa. Auj is pretty much Bilbo's story in most parts. In the other two films, mainly Dos, Thorin take the role from the hobbit, being the dramatic character who holds the story. Bilbo saves the dwarves and witnesses many important events. With exception of the Smaug dialogue, he "does" things, he is not the "thing". All the plot of Dos and Botfa is about Thorin with Bilbo being the witness who goes back to his town and black screen.
"Se mais pessoas valorizassem o lar acima do ouro, o mundo seria muito mais feliz."
dainpigblog.blogspot.com
historiasderafaelrodriguesdarocha.blogspot.com
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 8:52pm
Post #21 of 82
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Thorin's hair deserves it's own short film!
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 8:54pm
Post #22 of 82
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It would go along with the beard!
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The one you claim is missing?
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 8:58pm
Post #23 of 82
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In the movies, Thorin is definitely pushed forward. Most telling is the final fight with Azog - by then Bilbo is knocked unconscious. That's all Thorin until Bilbo wakes up. But I still think it's mostly Bilbo's story, about his friendship with Thorin and the Company. Still, it's an interesting POV you have, something I've never thought about before, which is why I started this post. Thanks for that!
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ange1e4e5
Gondor
Sep 11 2016, 12:12am
Post #24 of 82
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Hair-raising Tales of Middle-Earth?
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I always follow my job through.
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 11 2016, 12:23am
Post #25 of 82
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Perhaps the makeup crew mixed up the beard and wig....
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because if you switched the hair on his face for the hair on his head, that would be really something!
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