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squire
Half-elven
Sep 8 2016, 11:52am
Post #1 of 26
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**The Tower of Cirith Ungol** discussion – 4. “I must carry the burden to the end. It can’t be altered. You can’t come between me and this doom.”
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At last Sam has found Frodo! Yes, we’re still reading Chapter 1 of Book VI of The Lord of the Rings: “The Tower of Cirith Ungol.” Join us as we learn of Frodo’s ordeal and see, yet again, just how terrible the One Ring can be.
Summary: Frodo is lying naked on some rags, scarred by the whip. Sam, crying, clings to him and tells him he’s safe now, his Sam has come to save him. Frodo, almost unbelieving, relaxes into Sam’s arms as if woken from a nightmare by a loving mother. Sam tries to rouse Frodo, who recounts for us his captivity and torments by the orcs.
Sam begins to focus on finding Frodo some clothes so they can escape from the Tower, but Frodo relapses into despair as he realizes the Ring has been taken to Sauron. Soon there will be no escape anywhere in Middle-earth. Sam triumphantly reveals he has the Ring – but is oddly reluctant to hand it over, and suggests he could help Frodo with the burden of it as they enter Mordor. Frodo reacts violently, seeing Sam as a grasping orc: he snatches the Ring back and calls Sam a thief. The vision immediately passes, revealing Sam in tears; Frodo apologizes and explains that only he can bear the Ring at this point.
Sam recovers, and determines to do his part as he always has: to help Frodo with practical matters. He goes down the ladder to rustle up some orc clothing to disguise them in the Land of Shadow, leaving Frodo alone with a knife and the Elvish password Elbererth.
There, there
Frodo is naked, on a heap of rags. Sam, in tears, hugs him to his breast as either a mother, or a lover. As a fairly restrained person, I admit this part of the book has always weirded me out a bit.
A. What is the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo?
B. Would the story have worked as well had Frodo not been naked?
I don’t think it’s surprising that I found a fairly large number of fan art images of Frodo being consoled by Sam; it’s an iconic moment in their relationship, however we might interpret it. Take a break and enjoy or evaluate these.
1. Found – by J. Chang
2. Frodo with Sam in Cirith Ungol – by Donato Giancola (my favorite, again. Go, Donato!)
3. In the Tower – by Leloi
4. Frodo Rescued – by Rankin-Bass
5. The Reunion of Frodo and Sam – by Miruna Lavinia
6. Sam’s Comfort – by Solarfall
C. How self-conscious are these various artists of the more or less sublimated eroticism that Tolkien evokes?
When Sam kisses Frodo’s forehead, to rouse him for the work of making their escape, we are told he is “trying to sound as cheerful as he had when he drew back the curtains at Bag End on a summer’s morning.”
D. When was Sam, the gardener’s son, ever employed to waken Mr. Frodo at Bag End?
Frodo tells Sam (and us) all about his captivity: being stung by Shelob, revived by the orcs in the tower with a burning drink, stripped and questioned by Gorbag and Shagrat.
E. How does Frodo’s experience of captivity by orcs compare with Merry’s and Pippin’s in Book III?
We know from the end of Book V, and from the narrator’s comments later in this book, that Sauron believes that Frodo was a ‘bold spy’. But Frodo gives us no details about what he did and didn’t say to the hours-long intensive questioning by the two chief orcs.
F. Did Frodo ‘confess’ to being a spy, or did he keep mum, or did he invent some other cover story? How did he avoid revealing, through some slip of the tongue under pressure, that he did not climb the stairs alone?
G. When was the last time a spy was most likely taken captive in Mordor, so that the orcs and Sauron would logically accept that as the explanation for a hapless hobbit wandering through Shelob’s lair?
Frodo is not hurt, was unmolested by the orcs, and was even fed (as we will learn) until Snaga whipped him out of spite just before Sam’s arrival.
H. Doesn’t it seem more likely that the orcs would have used Frodo’s body as a bargaining chip, or hostage, or just target of their hatred, fear, and frustration, during the insane bloodbath of combat and slaughter that consumed both garrisons up to and including Shagrat and Gorbag themselves?
Sam explains to Frodo that the orcs all killed themselves, which he calls “lucky”, and adds “but it’s too long to make a song about, till we’re out of here”.
I. What does Sam mean about making or not making a song? A song about what?
Give Me the Ring
Frodo is overcome with despair at the thought that Sauron has recovered the Ring.
J. Why does he question if even the Sea is wide enough to prevent Sauron’s Shadow from overtaking the Elves on the other side?
Sam is to some degree under the spell of the Ring here, or he wouldn’t “feel reluctant” to return it to Frodo and he wouldn’t suggest that they “maybe” could share the burden as they journey into Mordor. Yet there is no hint that he would refuse to surrender it, or fight Frodo for it, or otherwise betray him later on to get it back. In other words, the Ring tempts Sam just enough to set Frodo off, but no more and never again – just as it tempted Boromir enough to try to seize it, but not to lose his moral compass afterwards; and it tempted Faramir not at all because if it had, he had both the power and motive to take it and change the story; and it tempted none of the rest of the Fellowship because… well, you know. Because.
K. Are the Ring’s effects on the various characters so “fine-tuned” to these morality set-pieces, that the reader never understands exactly how it works to corrupt those who encounter it?
Frodo Demands the Ring – Rankin-Bass
Frodo panics at Sam’s clear interest in the Ring, and is deluded into seeing Sam as a hideous grasping orc reaching for the Ring.
L. How does this compare to Frodo’s visions of Bilbo back in Rivendell, and of Boromir at the crisis on Amon Hen?
‘O Sam!’ cried Frodo. ‘What have I said? What have I done? Forgive me! After all you have done. It is the horrible power of the Ring. I wish it had never, never, been found. But don’t mind me, Sam.’
To me, this dialogue of Frodo’s is very clichéd and melodramatic, reminiscent of sentimental Victorian romances. You may disagree, of course, but my question remains:
M. When and how in this book does Tolkien most successfully pioneer the vigorous new style of writing we now call high fantasy, and when and how does he stumble into echoing the quite generic mysteries, adventure stories, and ‘mere thrillers’ of his era’s popular literary culture?
Scavenger Hunt
Sam uses Sting’s blade to check for the presence of orcs, before he goes out to scavenge for clothing: “Hardly a flicker was to be seen upon its blade.”
N. Why is it flickering at all, if every orc is dead?
Sam’s choice of password, ‘Elbereth’, seems clever enough since surely no orc would ever say the Elvish name.
O. But why have a password at all? Could Frodo really be deceived into thinking that anyone else, asking to be let up to the chamber, was Sam?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 8 2016, 1:08pm
Post #2 of 26
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Frodo is naked . . . The Horror! The Horror!
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Frodo is naked, on a heap of rags. Sam, in tears, hugs him to his breast as either a mother, or a lover. As a fairly restrained person, I admit this part of the book has always weirded me out a bit.
A. What is the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo?
B. Would the story have worked as well had Frodo not been naked?
Yes, the story would work just as well had Frodo not been naked. But I’m sure the orcs had orders to thoroughly search any and all captives. Stripping to the skin is certainly a thorough search…
I was never ‘weirded out’ over this scene (well, just a tad now that you bring it up). I’ve never thought this ‘hug’ was a motherly or lover’s (in the sense your intimating) hug. I’ve always seen it as one might imagine an infantryman of today holding a wounded or dying dear friend – purely platonic. The love of one man for another can be nearly as strong as the love of a man for a woman without the sex. Anyone who has been in combat will attest to the deeply strong (sexless) bonds that can develop between two men. (Oh yes, one would sacrifice his life for his comrade. What greater love!) I’ve never envisioned the good professor writing this encounter with anything untoward in mind.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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Meneldor
Valinor
Sep 8 2016, 1:15pm
Post #3 of 26
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I suspect the good Catholic professor was not impressed by the "sexual revolution" and that such thoughts are a product of minds acclimated to modern mores, not those of his time. It's not about sex; it's about humiliation, helplessness, and ultimate vulnerability.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 8 2016, 2:32pm
Post #4 of 26
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A reader's reaction to Frodo and Sam here
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Frodo is naked, on a heap of rags. Sam, in tears, hugs him to his breast as either a mother, or a lover. As a fairly restrained person, I admit this part of the book has always weirded me out a bit.
A. What is the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo?
Well, I bring my own understanding of relationships to literature, as does every reader. I have no experience of same sex erotic relationships, let alone male and male ones, so I always read this as a nurse who has been physically close to other females in distress and in labor countless times.
I think of the times especially that doulas (birth coaches) are holding and supporting and comforting and stroking a virtually naked women in the last hour of labor. And the times I've just held another adult female to help her through a painful procedure or post op work.
I guess I just see two humans, one rescuing and supporting the other. I know that, until I began to discuss the book with other people, I never realized others saw it differently.
I don't honestly think this is purposely erotic, but possibly subliminal? I just don't know. Tolkien had multiple male-only experiences in his life to draw from, and possibly going to all boys schools frames this, but if you want my gut reaction, this is two soldiers, an officer and a servant, both exhausted, one almost at the end of strength and the other overjoyed to find the wounded one still alive and kicking.
Very much like a doula at the end of labor, really.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Sep 8 2016, 2:47pm)
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Sep 8 2016, 4:47pm
Post #5 of 26
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I first read RotK when I was 11 or so, so it honestly never occurred to me that there was anything remotely sexual about this scene. I was honestly surprised later when I found out that others applied that particular subtext to the scene, and I had some trepidation when the movies were made because I wasn't looking forward to all of the gay jokes and such that would almost surely follow any reasonably close adaption of the printed material. And I was right to worry.  But no, I hold, and have always held, with the notion that Frodo and Sam are friends who have known each other for years, and have lately been through hell together (with the worst yet to come). No romance there.
Sam explains to Frodo that the orcs all killed themselves, which he calls “lucky”, and adds “but it’s too long to make a song about, till we’re out of here”.
I. What does Sam mean about making or not making a song? A song about what?
A song detailing the events to be passed down in a manner of oral folktales, like Frodo Of The Nine Fingers, and The Ring of Doom.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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enanito
Rohan
Sep 8 2016, 6:26pm
Post #6 of 26
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[in my best Ben Kenobi voice] "These aren't the Hobbits you're looking for..."
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F. Did Frodo ‘confess’ to being a spy...
G. When was the last time a spy...?
I posted something along these lines in the previous thread, but no bites there yet.
What do we think are the exact details Sauron hears from all this interrogation?
Does Sauron know there's a Hobbit lying in a tower inside Mordor?
Does Sauron know there's a purported Elf Warrior accompanying him, free and alive (since Shagrat only bumped him aside)?
And does Sauron do anything other than treat this like an occasional toe-fungus flareup, bothersome when bored but not when there's more pressing things to worry about?
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enanito
Rohan
Sep 8 2016, 6:52pm
Post #7 of 26
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So when does Frodo actually know that he was stung by Shelob? In this chapter, when he recounts to Sam what happened to him, he only remembers getting "hit by something".
I cannot remember if during our discussion of Shelob's Lair, anyone mentioned when Frodo finds out he was actually stung (and yes I was the chapter leader, and yes I'm too lazy to go back and check!). It does seem like somebody recently covered this in one of our threads.
Sam's the only one who knows this story, does he tell Frodo? Or do we think Frodo at some point in the journey towards Mt Doom noticed a big scar in his body from where Shelob stung him, or did it take until much later for him to realize?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 8 2016, 8:24pm
Post #8 of 26
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..."the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo" can only be described as "wonderful" and "powerful" and "essential to the story".
Frodo is naked, on a heap of rags. Sam, in tears, hugs him to his breast as either a mother, or a lover. As a fairly restrained person, I admit this part of the book has always weirded me out a bit.
A. What is the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo?
OK, I tease. We're being asked to discuss whether Sam and Frodo are an actual or potential gay couple, aren't we?
So the question breaks down into: "What did Tolkien imagine, and mean us to understand?" and "What, in this analysis palace of the Reading Room can a reader theorize?" (Our usual unspoken rule being that theories have to explain the text rather than be rebutted by or inconsistent with it.)
What do I think Tolkien meant? Well for starters I don't think he engineered a whipped naked Frodo for titillation. I think it's happened for perfectly logical reasons of plot (as has already been argued). I note that Sam is overjoyed to see Frodo alive and more or less in one piece, in any form of clothing. Frodo's nakedness presents as a practical problem to be solved before the quest can continue, rather than being offered as a source of enjoyment (for Sam, or for us readers).
Counter-argument: just supposing Tolkien had wished to suggest homo-eroticism whilst being published by a mainstream publisher in the very un-progressive 1950s, I suppose he would have been pretty coded about it. It's entirely possible it's difficult to read that code without more knowledge than I have of Tolkien and of Tolkien's time. presumably professional Tolkien scholars have been all over this though? DO we know what they say? (Or, like the elves do scholars say 'both yes and no'?  )
What can a reader theorize? I don't see that analysis of the text forces us to conclude that F&S are an actual or potential gay couple. But conversely I don't think the text rebuts or contradicts a reader who does like that reading. The story is and isn't about the relationship between F&S. It is about it because they must have a very strong bond to pull through. It isn't (as far as I see) about the exact nature of that bond, romantic, sexual or comradely, because any of those would potentially work.
And lastly, I very much agree with a.s:
"I bring my own understanding of relationships to literature, as does every reader. "
a.s.
We certainly do, don't we. And we want our heroes to be like us. So imagine the Reading Room contains people with different and very strong convictions on this point.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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InTheChair
Rohan
Sep 8 2016, 8:34pm
Post #9 of 26
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Funny orders for funny business-
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What is the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo?
Tolkien had a strange notion about people beeing most well content in their place. Sam who for some reason considered Frodo his better, would have felt some kind of affection for Frodo in his role as Frodos servant, feeling that Frodo was the very essence of a perfect master. At least something like that would be the starting point. Then of course they must have bonded during their many journeys. Platonic like.
When was Sam, the gardener’s son, ever employed to waken Mr. Frodo at Bag End?
Difficult to say. Pehaps some time in between beeing chosen as a companion by Gandalf, and leaving Hobbiton, but also possibly a slip up by Tolkien. Could have used Crickhollow.
How does Frodo’s experience of captivity by orcs compare with Merry’s and Pippin’s in Book III?
Similar treatment. Rough handling, strong drink, etc. Different orders. Ugluks and Grishnakhs were unharmed, as captured, no spoling, and not to be searched. Shagrats on the other hand were something like prisoner to be stripped and searched full description of every weapon, garment, trinket or item sent to Lugburz. The latter is a really strange standing order unless Sauron expected someone to come hopping around with the ring. Which he might have perhaps, especially in front of an army, but the orders apparently applied even to little spy prisoners, and yet we are told Sauron was completely surprised by the ring beeing carried to Mount Doom?
Sam is to some degree under the spell of the Ring here, or he wouldn’t “feel reluctant” to return it to Frodo and he wouldn’t suggest that they “maybe” could share the burden as they journey into Mordor.
The might be another factor at play here. Sam, even if only for a short while had felt the burden of the ring, and seeing Frodos pityable state he might for that reason have hesitated putting the burden back on Frodo. No doubt the ring is also at play though.
But why have a password at all? Could Frodo really be deceived into thinking that anyone else, asking to be let up to the chamber, was Sam?
Probably keep Frodo on his guard in case someone else comes by and doesn't give the password.
On a side not I like the detail about the two liverys Sam notices, with the Morgul orcs not carrying the red eye. A remainder that most or many of the orcs in the first assault on Minas Tirith probably were not orcs of the eye.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Sep 8 2016, 8:36pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 8 2016, 8:35pm
Post #10 of 26
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I think Frodo's stuff got to Sauron's Office, if not to Sauron personally. By the time everyone had rearranged the facts for the normal corporate cover-ups, turf battles, score-settling and whatnot, it's possible that Sauron got a very partial picture of what happened, and maybe he was too busy to torture his way to the bottom of it?
I like the idea of Sauron requiring so much obedience that it all becomes just as self-defeating as if he had an army of fith columnists engaged in 'simple sabotage':
The thing most people find hardest to believe about the Simple Sabotage Field Manual is that it isn’t a joke. It really was a top-secret document, created in 1944 by the predecessor to the CIA, and it really was distributed to agents working behind enemy lines in the second world war. (It was made public in 2008 and now gets rediscovered online every year or two.) The manual is a guide to the art of “purposeful stupidity” – easy ways in which the citizens of occupied Europe might be encouraged to lower morale and wreak havoc in their workplaces, thereby helping bring down the Axis powers. What’s amazing is that it reads like a description of every modern jobsworth you’ve ever encountered. Are the rules better off broken? by Oliver Burkeman The Guardian newspaper 2 September 20116 https://www.theguardian.com/...oken-oliver-burkeman
Besides, the truth was so utterly unbelievable, that who would believe it? To return your Star Wars metaphor, Frodo and Sam's attack on Mordor is like the Millenium Falcon speeding directly towards the bridge of the Star Destroyer Avenger - a move so apparently nonsensical that the Avenger's crew just can't imagine its real purpose.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 8 2016, 8:37pm
Post #11 of 26
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I agree - he feels (or thinks that he feels) that by carrying the Ring he can share some of Frodo's pain.
But thereby, probably the Ring, is also finding a way to get a hook into our Sam.
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Sep 8 2016, 8:58pm
Post #12 of 26
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If Frodo were semi-conscious across Mordor...
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I could theoretically imagine something along these lines:
Frodo is so beaten down by the orcs that he drifts in-and-out of consciousness on the way to Mount Doom. Sam, in his compassion, lifts the Ring from around Frodo's neck each time Frodo drifts away, thinking to somehow ease his burden so he can rest. Frodo always awakens desperate for the Ring, and Sam each time reassures him by placing the Ring back around his neck. But by the time they reach the slopes of Orodruin, Sam as well has been greatly affected by the Ring's pull, and remains much more pained by the Ring's loss during his remaining days in the Shire. Poor Rosie Cotton.
As always, I'm not saying I like this particular plot line, or that it's even workable (I'm no writer!). But I agree given more time and agreeable circumstances, that the Ring might be able to find a hook into our Sam.
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 8 2016, 10:22pm
Post #13 of 26
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Sam explains to Frodo that the orcs all killed themselves, which he calls “lucky”, and adds “but it’s too long to make a song about, till we’re out of here”.
I. What does Sam mean about making or not making a song? A song about what?
Been thinking about this question. I must admit (given my hyperbole about knowing the entire text, it is not strictly true for every single word!) I never noticed this here. Or that is, I may have noticed what he was saying but just took it to be slang for something like "I don't have time to compose a whole tale now, it will just have to wait, first things first".
But I got to thinking, even if this is just a bit of slang, wouldn't it fit in nicely with a mostly oral society where stories are made to be easily recited so they can be remembered, such as the hobbits in the Shire? Poems and songs are used this way, in pre-literate cultures, anyway.
Not that Sam is saying he will deliberately make a story to be remembered, just that this bit of slang would be a common one.
Just a thought.
Because I really think this is just a throwaway phrase here and doesn't mean anything specifically.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 8 2016, 10:33pm
Post #14 of 26
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So when does Frodo actually know that he was stung by Shelob? In this chapter, when he recounts to Sam what happened to him, he only remembers getting "hit by something".
Next chapter, when they overhear the two orcs talking about the big mess with Higher Up, and there might be bad news from the battles. When the orcs run off, Sam reminds Frodo that he had TOLD him he didn't think Gollum was dead, and Frodo says:
"...I think we had better not move out from here again, until it has gone quite dark. So you shall tell me how you know, and all about what happened. If you can do it quietly."
"...and Sam spoke into Frodo's ear all that he could find words for of Gollum's treacherous attack, the horror of Shelob, and his own adventures with the orcs."
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Sep 8 2016, 11:41pm
Post #15 of 26
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"Leave that report on my desk. I'm busy..."
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F. Did Frodo ‘confess’ to being a spy...
G. When was the last time a spy...?
I posted something along these lines in the previous thread, but no bites there yet.
What do we think are the exact details Sauron hears from all this interrogation?
Does Sauron know there's a Hobbit lying in a tower inside Mordor?
Does Sauron know there's a purported Elf Warrior accompanying him, free and alive (since Shagrat only bumped him aside)?
And does Sauron do anything other than treat this like an occasional toe-fungus flareup, bothersome when bored but not when there's more pressing things to worry about?
One of the Orc Captains (I forget which) was already on record as complaining that it was hard to get The Boss' attention, when they tried to report strange things happening on the stairs a day or two prior. This might be more of the same; The War had begun, and most of Sauron's focus was there.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Sep 9 2016, 7:58pm
Post #16 of 26
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Does he mean that literally Frodo was in his Hobbity birthday suit, or would Frodo have had a loincloth or maybe a vest or something?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 9 2016, 9:16pm
Post #17 of 26
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I think yes, naked, nude, unclothed, stripped…
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When Tolkien says naked . . .
Does he mean that literally Frodo was in his Hobbity birthday suit, or would Frodo have had a loincloth or maybe a vest or something?
I think I was more taken aback during Fog on the Barrow-downs as Tom Bombadil says:
’Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!’
. . . The hobbits ran about for a while on the grass, as he told them.
So, did they run naked on the grass or was this just old Tom having some fun with them and they actually had on boxer-shorts?
I just had more trouble picturing four adults (well, Pippin hadn’t ‘come of age’ yet) running stark naked on the grass, than Frodo’s being naked up in the tower. But I NEVER thought there was anything sexual about either episode.
A discussion coming soon: “Why were Tom’s boots ‘yellow’?”
Also, there had to be some nakedness way back in Crickhollow with the three tubs of hot water . . . in the same room! If you can believe it . . . The Horror! 
In summary: As Tolkien worked on the Oxford English Dictionary I think it’s a great possibility that he knew the definition of “naked”  .
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 11 2016, 9:40am
Post #18 of 26
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nakedness = innocence and nakedness = humiliation as well as nakedness = sexy. And in some contexts nakedness = unremarkable
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As you said earlier re Frodo's nakedness in this chapter:
I’m sure the orcs had orders to thoroughly search any and all captives. Stripping to the skin is certainly a thorough search…
There's also inflicting nakedness as humiliation and intimidation, and furthermore making sure that the prisoner is left with nothing that might facilitate escape or suicide.
I suppose one could also reach for a Christian parallel here - on his way to being crucified, Jesus is described as being both stripped and whipped, I believe.
Back in the barrow, the hobbits have been dressed for undeath, and I think something symbolic is meant by them casting off their rags. Maybe a sort of re-birth. Nakedness is also symbolically innocence - Adam and Eve for example. The rather prelapsarian Tom may want the hobbits to behave like innocent children, or Original People.
A practical point also - if the wight has made off with their clothes, it's chilly on an early September morning on the Downs, if they are approximately British in climate. Temperatures in the low teens Centigrade (~50- 60 F), probably. Disintegrating old winding sheets aren't going to be much insulation, even if there is no magical reason not to wear them. It's either exercise or huddle together naked, or risk hypothermia, perhaps. And Tom is much more of a run around singing than a huddle together kind of guy, I think.
Norms about public nakedness are subject to massive cultural variation, anyway. In Oxford there was, until 1991, part of a public park set aside for (male only) nude bathing. It was called 'Parson's Pleasure'.
I can't resist culling a well-known amusing anecdote while giving this reference:
Parson's Pleasure is now only a scene for tales from the folklore of the university. One anecdote has it that a number of dons were sunbathing naked at Parson's Pleasure when a female student floated by in a punt. All but one of the startled dons covered their genitals—Maurice Bowra placed a flannel over his head instead. When asked why he had done so, he replied, "I don’t know about you, gentlemen, but in Oxford, I, at least, am known by my face." https://en.wikipedia.org/.../Parson%27s_Pleasure
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 12 2016, 3:50am
Post #19 of 26
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Good thoughts noWiz, but let’s take the major quotes
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in question substituting your other meanings for naked:
In The Tower of Cirith Ungol:
He was humiliated, lying as if in a swoon…
He was intimidated, lying as if in a swoon…
He was innocent, lying as if in a swoon…
He was unremarkable, lying as if in a swoon…
OR the proper quote:
He was naked, lying as if in a swoon…
No, I think here Tolkien meant nude. Seems to be the only word that fits the circumstances (or the BEST word at least).
Or Bombabil’s words:
’Cast off these cold rags! Run humiliated on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!’
’Cast off these cold rags! Run intimidated on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!’
’Cast off these cold rags! Run innocent on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!’
’Cast off these cold rags! Run unremarkable on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!’
OR the proper quote:
’Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!’
I think here the only other word that seems fitting might be innocent (to use your Adam & Eve symbolism); but again I would think Tolkien/Bombadil meant nude; although as I said Bombadil may have just been have a little jest with the hobbits…
and your mentioning of the time of year seems to make this closer to a josh than reality.
My foot-thick, five pound Webster’s New Universal Dictionary lists: Naked- 1. (a) completely unclothed, bare, nude . . . with a couple dozen other related definitions.
So I think Tolkien used the word ‘naked’ in these instances in its primary #1 sense.
Oh, and, err, well, I’ve just never had the desire to take part in a nude beach or park. Yuck! But that’s just the way I dangle .
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 12 2016, 6:46am
Post #20 of 26
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I wasn't disputing what was being worn in those scenes: I agree it's nothing at all.
So the word 'naked' is accurate: I was thinking about why Tolkien might want that image: what our options are for what it might mean at a symbolic rather than literal level. I wasn't debating what 'naked' meant at the literal, dictionary definition level. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
Your revised examples nicely show that:
It's better to show the image than specify the meaning - the substitutions are nowhere as good as the original.
The same image can have different meanings in different circumstances (that's why only innocent works in your Bombadil substitutions).
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 12 2016, 6:55am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 12 2016, 12:55pm
Post #21 of 26
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No, the misinterpretation is probably mine
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as seems often my wont these days. It’s clear you were endeavoring for some figurative meanings of naked.
I was thinking, as my head hit the pillow, last night – what if Tolkien had used one of the other primary words for naked: unclothed or completely unclothed seems somewhat formal; bare doesn’t quite nail it and seems open to some interpretation; and nude seems somewhat crass. So yes, naked IS the way to go for Tolkien to give the proper imagery.
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Sep 12 2016, 1:45pm
Post #22 of 26
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I agree, 'naked' not 'nude' was the right word....
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...probably because 'nude' (or 'unclothed') would remove all the subtexts or figurative meanings we've been discussing. I recall a memorable explanation of the nude/naked difference:
Technically speaking, naked implies that a person is unprotected or vulnerable. It also describes something that is unadorned or without embellishment, as in the oft-mentioned naked truth. Nude, on the other hand, means one thing: unclothed. Think of it this way: if you doff your duds to pose while descending a staircase for a tasteful painting done by a respected artist, then you're nude. If a bunch of paparazzi suddenly burst in through the studio door and take your picture without permission, you are suddenly naked. http://mentalfloss.com/...tween-naked-and-nude
~~~~~~
Volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our read-thorough of Book VI ROTK (and the appendices if there are sufficient volunteers) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=909709#909709
A wonderful list of links to Book I - Book V chapters in this read-through (and to previous read-throughs) is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Sep 12 2016, 2:01pm
Post #23 of 26
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And towels have a proper function
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Shucks! This isn’t one of them. Doff it! Doff it! I say! 
noun
1. 1.
a piece of thick absorbent cloth or paper used for drying oneself or wiping things dry.
verb
1. 1.
wipe or dry (a person or thing) with a towel.
"she toweled her hair dry"
‘. . . the rule of no realm is mine . . .
But all worthy things that are in peril . . . those are my care.
For I also am a steward. Did you not know?'
Gandalf to Denethor
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squire
Half-elven
Sep 12 2016, 8:39pm
Post #24 of 26
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Nude does not mean simply unclothed
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Just like naked, of course, it does have that primary meaning when applied to a person. But nude has a host of secondary and symbolic uses as well. Most often it connotes the aesthetic appeal of the naked form, used for a depiction of a naked human figure which is presented for admiration rather than shame, arousal, shock, pity, or situational realism.
Which is why you automatically included the words 'tasteful' and 'respected' in your example of a Nude Descending A Staircase. An artist with different intent could easily paint an unclothed person descending a staircase for which the only possible descriptor would be 'naked'.
Modern artists, starting with Manet, have had great fun playing off the distinction between naked and nude in the world of Art. See his famous "Dejeuner sur L'Herbe" and try to decide if the artist's model in the foreground is naked, or nude.
In the case of Frodo in the tower, to have described him as nude would have asked the question whether Sam, or we, were admiring the effects of the red light and shadow on Frodo's unclothed figure. It would take the story completely off topic.
I agree that Tolkien wanted Frodo naked, and not because it was the only choice given a quite realistic strip-search by the orcs. Frodo could well have been given back his undershorts or a tunic, or even all his clothes. That would have eliminated the question - the problem of disguise while traveling in Mordor would be just as applicable. There is no inherent need to mention what he was wearing, any more than there is to describe what Gollum wears in the way of clothing.
Frodo is naked for the author's purposes. The word's secondary senses of innocence, vulnerability, victimization, and a childish need for nurturing and love are what we are meant to get, I think - as the subsequent text fills in by the hobbits' actions and dialogue. The reminder by some posters of the scene after the liberation from the Barrow is quite on target - Tolkien repeats here, or foreshadows there, the same general sense of redemption, of 'naked returned I from death, as if reborn a child'.
To take 'naked' in the direction of eroticism is out of keeping with Tolkien's style throughout. But good Freudians and moderns that we are, it's harder for us than it was for Tolkien to avoid picking up subliminal (i.e. unconscious to the characters, if not the author as well) hints of it in the strong portrayal of Sam's near-physical need not just to serve or rescue, but to hold Frodo in his arms, starting back at the top of the Stairs earlier in the story.
I think, due to this chapter and similar scenes of physical devotion elsewhere in the book, some fans take the erotic subtext further than Tolkien does, as we see in some of the illustrations I posted, and in some of the fan fiction about the two that I've heard about.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Sep 14 2016, 2:32pm
Post #25 of 26
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"...they don't 'arf make a song about it."
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Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace
-I Corinthians 4:11
Frodo is naked, on a heap of rags. Sam, in tears, hugs him to his breast as either a mother, or a lover. As a fairly restrained person, I admit this part of the book has always weirded me out a bit.
A. What is the nature of Sam’s love for, and devotion to, Frodo?
What with Bilbo as a nurturing father figure to both, an older brother. (12 years difference.)
I recall doing the same thing with my older brother (11 years difference) after I pulled him out of a smoldering car wreck, though I was also thinking about keeping him warm from fear he might be going into shock. (He wasn’t naked, though.) The tears didn’t hit until after the adrenalin wore off.
As it turned out he was okay but the cow we hit died instantly.
B. Would the story have worked as well had Frodo not been naked?
It emphasizes his vulnerability.
Also, practically speaking, it’s a lot easier and safer to strip a POW naked instead of patting them down, but the Geneva Convention frowns on “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment”, though I don’t believe Mordor is a party to that treaty.
C. How self-conscious are these various artists of the more or less sublimated eroticism that Tolkien evokes?
Some of Frodo’s poses do seem a bit coy. Like the naked ladies in the less explicit Playboy Magazines of the 1950s.
When Sam kisses Frodo’s forehead, to rouse him for the work of making their escape, we are told he is “trying to sound as cheerful as he had when he drew back the curtains at Bag End on a summer’s morning.”
D. When was Sam, the gardener’s son, ever employed to waken Mr. Frodo at Bag End?
Maybe in return for Bilbo’s tutoring?
Frodo tells Sam (and us) all about his captivity: being stung by Shelob, revived by the orcs in the tower with a burning drink, stripped and questioned by Gorbag and Shagrat.
E. How does Frodo’s experience of captivity by orcs compare with Merry’s and Pippin’s in Book III?
Spoiled versus unspoiled. Searched versus unsearched. Plundered versus unplundered. And Frodo gave Snaga “good sport”.
And consider:
As [M&P] walked they compared notes, talking lightly in hobbit-fashion of the things that had happened since their capture. No listener would have guessed from their words that they had suffered cruelly, and been in dire peril, going without hope towards torment and death…
-The Uruk-Hai
That Frodo doesn’t similarly recover Hobbit-fashion is telling.
We know from the end of Book V, and from the narrator’s comments later in this book, that Sauron believes that Frodo was a ‘bold spy’. But Frodo gives us no details about what he did and didn’t say to the hours-long intensive questioning by the two chief orcs.
F. Did Frodo ‘confess’ to being a spy, or did he keep mum, or did he invent some other cover story? How did he avoid revealing, through some slip of the tongue under pressure, that he did not climb the stairs alone?
The problem with torture (as opposed to relation building interrogation) is that the victim’s only motivation is to just stop the ordeal. Thus the easiest way to stop the torture is to simply confirm what the torturer already suspects. So Frodo readily confesses that he is a bold spy, saboteur, assassin, and anything else the torturers suggest. However the torturers don’t seem to suspect that he wasn’t alone, and they definitely don’t suspect about the Ring, so they never ask about either, and there’s no way Frodo is going to volunteer the information because it would merely lead to more questions and prolong the torture.
Torture is not only cruel and immoral, but counter-productive and downright stupid.
G. When was the last time a spy was most likely taken captive in Mordor, so that the orcs and Sauron would logically accept that as the explanation for a hapless hobbit wandering through Shelob’s lair?
I’m sure any suspicious character in Mordor is quickly taken prisoner and readily confesses under torture to being a spy. And given that everyone in Mordor is suspicious of everyone else, there are probably dozens of spies captured every day who verify under torture exactly what Sauron suspects. So really, the only thing remarkable about Frodo is that he is a Shire-rat.
Oft evil will shall evil mar and all that.
Frodo is not hurt, was unmolested by the orcs, and was even fed (as we will learn) until Snaga whipped him out of spite just before Sam’s arrival.
H. Doesn’t it seem more likely that the orcs would have used Frodo’s body as a bargaining chip, or hostage, or just target of their hatred, fear, and frustration, during the insane bloodbath of combat and slaughter that consumed both garrisons up to and including Shagrat and Gorbag themselves?
Much like with M&P being similarly ignored:
[Hobbits] possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiftly and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this they have developed until to Men it may seem magical.
-Prologue
Sam explains to Frodo that the orcs all killed themselves, which he calls “lucky”, and adds “but it’s too long to make a song about, till we’re out of here”.
I. What does Sam mean about making or not making a song? A song about what?
Seems to be a dismissive idiom from World War I:
"Some o' these ****** what come out 'ere now," observed Martlow, "ave never done anythin' they didn't want to do in their lives before, and now they're up against somethin' real nasty, they don't 'arf make a song about it. They think they're ****** 'eroes just because they're 'ere."
-Chapter X, Frederic Manning, The Middle Parts of Fortune: Somme and Ancre, 1916 (1929)
(Expurgated version: Her Privates We (1930).)
Later repeated:
"You don't want to talk about it, anyway," said Corporal Hamley, quietly. "I'm not sayin' you're not right: I'd do what any other man'd do; but there's no need to make a song about it."
-Chapter XII, ibid
(BTW, like Tolkien, Manning also fought in the Battle of the Somme.)
Give Me the Ring
Frodo is overcome with despair at the thought that Sauron has recovered the Ring.
J. Why does he question if even the Sea is wide enough to prevent Sauron’s Shadow from overtaking the Elves on the other side?
He’s read of Sauron’s ambitions towards Valinor in Bilbo’s Translations From the Elvish.
Sam is to some degree under the spell of the Ring here, or he wouldn’t “feel reluctant” to return it to Frodo and he wouldn’t suggest that they “maybe” could share the burden as they journey into Mordor. Yet there is no hint that he would refuse to surrender it, or fight Frodo for it, or otherwise betray him later on to get it back. In other words, the Ring tempts Sam just enough to set Frodo off, but no more and never again – just as it tempted Boromir enough to try to seize it, but not to lose his moral compass afterwards; and it tempted Faramir not at all because if it had, he had both the power and motive to take it and change the story; and it tempted none of the rest of the Fellowship because… well, you know. Because.
K. Are the Ring’s effects on the various characters so “fine-tuned” to these morality set-pieces, that the reader never understands exactly how it works to corrupt those who encounter it?
'No!' cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good.
-The Shadow of the Past
Likewise, Sam feels pity for the weakness of Frodo and the desire to do good for him.
Frodo panics at Sam’s clear interest in the Ring, and is deluded into seeing Sam as a hideous grasping orc reaching for the Ring.
L. How does this compare to Frodo’s visions of Bilbo back in Rivendell, and of Boromir at the crisis on Amon Hen?
Makes you wonder how much of the two contretemps were caused by Frodo’s own ring-induced paranoia.
I’m thinking the Ring is not really trying to get Sam to take the Ring, but instead arouse Frodo’s paranoia enough so he says “Go home, Sam”.
‘O Sam!’ cried Frodo. ‘What have I said? What have I done? Forgive me! After all you have done. It is the horrible power of the Ring. I wish it had never, never, been found. But don’t mind me, Sam.’
To me, this dialogue of Frodo’s is very clichéd and melodramatic, reminiscent of sentimental Victorian romances. You may disagree, of course, but my question remains:
M. When and how in this book does Tolkien most successfully pioneer the vigorous new style of writing we now call high fantasy, and when and how does he stumble into echoing the quite generic mysteries, adventure stories, and ‘mere thrillers’ of his era’s popular literary culture?
When the characters just talk instead of proclaim.
Scavenger Hunt
Sam uses Sting’s blade to check for the presence of orcs, before he goes out to scavenge for clothing: “Hardly a flicker was to be seen upon its blade.”
N. Why is it flickering at all, if every orc is dead?
Must be orcish ghosts... Hey! Orcs got souls!!
Sam’s choice of password, ‘Elbereth’, seems clever enough since surely no orc would ever say the Elvish name.
O. But why have a password at all? Could Frodo really be deceived into thinking that anyone else, asking to be let up to the chamber, was Sam?
Boys always set a password to get up into a treehouse. You never know when there might be orcs. Or girls. Or girly orcs.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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