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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 5 2016, 2:42pm
Post #1 of 26
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Thoughts on time and re-watching FOTR
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Since posting on Torn is feeling a bit elegaic to me now, this place I love and wish would never disappear from right here, on my screen, in a corner of the internet where wonderful, smart, funny, and talkative people (the best kind!) gather, I am posting this on Main. It's not so much a discussion of the movie as of time passing. Admins, feel free to move it if you think it should go to Movie.
But I'm not really going to discuss the movie itself. I'm going to discuss age. Time. Beloved things. Stuff like that. Tolkien related, of course.
There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight
To me did seem
Apparelled in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream.
It is not now as it hath been of yore;—
Turn wheresoe’er I may,
By night or day,
The things which I have seen I now can see no more.
This is a holiday weekend in the States. I had a wonderful family filled weekend. I've had a lot of changes since I came to Torn in 2004, AFTER the Oscars, AFTER all the hype and etc. I have a grandson now, he is five, he is the apple of my eye. I have friendly relations with an ex. I still have a good job. Life is good.
I still re-read LOTR, at least yearly. Sometimes more than that. Sometimes I just pick it up and randomly read something. I always know what's on the next page anyhow, even if the pages are falling out now of my old HMs, second editions.
In a fit of nostalgia (does that happen to you? why does it happen more the older we get? do we just have more to say goodbye to? that's my theory), I dragged out my old DVDs and watched the Extended Version of FOTR last night. Since it's not possible (and never will be possible) for me to watch any of the movies without thinking of Torn, I came here to tell you: the movie holds up pretty well.
I am not a "not a fan" of the movies. I don't particularly care for ROTK. I only like a portion of TT. I really do not care for the Hobbit movies at all, but HEY NOW, I don't read the book, either. Discussions about what is done for visual media and why, etc., are just going to be lost on me. Truth be told, I don't care. Sorry. I like movies or I don't like movies, and have no passion for any discussion of them because why? Because I don't.
I read.
But sometimes, I watch a movie and like it, too.
Here are my random observations, colored as they are by sentiment:
--That first view of Hobbiton, that ride with Gandalf in the cart up the Hill--I forgave and continue to forgive much of what Jackson did to the story for that breathtakingly lovely view. Oh my. It still makes me teary.
--I am not as bothered by a young Frodo as I was the first time I saw it in the theater. Remember, I wasn't Tornized yet, I did not have any prep. But the older I get, the younger the book Frodo gets anyhow. It's OK. It's actually, hard as it is to admit, pretty good to have the young hobbits so young. OK Jackson, you made the right choice.
--Frodo falls way too much. Blech.
--I don't like Arwen appearing with the sword, NOT BECAUSE it's a departure from the book but because it does not suit the rest of her portrayal in the rest of the movie, where she becomes again the protected, demure Elvish maiden. DO NOT get me started on the Arwen is dying stupidity, though. Just--let's leave that alone.These are just musings. This is nostalgia here.
--Rivendell is pretty awesome, too. Good on you again, Jackson.
--I skip all the Saruman scenes. What they make fast forward for.
--The loss in Frodo's face when he turns to look at Aragorn after Moria makes me appreciate Jackson't choice of actor. Even in movie-world (vs. reading on a page, of which I am much more familiar) to see the incredible loss here and realize he still has to walk all the way to Mordor, and he's going to try it on his own, is pretty powerful. Possibly lost on first time viewers, though.
--I don't really buy Blanchett as Galadriel. Sorry.
--I like Merry. I like how quick he is to understand things way over his head.
--I like the in-jokes. I like the shortcut to what? Mushrooms the best.
--I like hearing Elvish spoke.
--I very very much like the end, I like the swell of music, I like the quiet way Sam just shoulders his burden.
In short, I understand why this is the only one of the six movies I really re-watch almost in its entirety.
But I NEVER watch any of the movies without thinking of you all. Still here. I hope as long as DVD players still work, you will still be here to read my random thoughts. May it be.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 6 2016, 8:37am
Post #2 of 26
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Yes, nostalgia does happen....
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I don't know why. Most every email exchange I have with long-term friends includes some reference to the swiftly passing river. Not so much in conversation because those tend to be with people I see more often and are usually about today - or tomorrow.
And I will suddenly have a flicker of something in my mind that tells me it's time to watch a particular favourite film or take that book of the shelf. Can't define the 'something' - a taste/colour/atmosphere that belongs to that story and that story alone. A friend of mine sometimes says "I'm having a Pride and Prejudice moment..."
I enjoyed your random thoughts. I could see the pictures running in my head as you described them. I liked that.
You don't know me and I haven't been around since 2004, but I thought I'd answer anyway. Hello!
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Prog Snob
Registered User
Sep 6 2016, 11:54am
Post #3 of 26
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Replying to: Thoughts on time and re-watching FOTR by a.s.
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I think, someday, there will be someone who gives the books their proper film treatment. Knowing how disappointed Tolkien Enterprises was with The Hobbit movies, it wouldn't surprise me if they were more inclined to back a fan-created idea than something spawned by Hollywood. There doesn't need to be an overwhelming amount of CGI to do the film the right way. Tolkien's landscapes are out there in the world. Hell, I live in Staten Island (New York City) and I can find most of his landscapes somewhere near me. CGI should be a last resort for a world like Middle Earth. That being said, I do enjoy watching the movies as their own entity, but as far as being a solid recreation of the books, they're missing the point.
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 6 2016, 11:57am
Post #4 of 26
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talking nostalgia, though, not merit
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I had a fit of nostalgic longing for Torn, and posted a rambling thought about it.
I wouldn't want to actually discuss the merits of the films here. There are PLENTY of people who want to do that on the Movie Board(s).
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Prog Snob
Registered User
Sep 6 2016, 12:04pm
Post #5 of 26
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I don't doubt that. 
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Sep 6 2016, 6:11pm
Post #6 of 26
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Especially after reading Sevilodorf's post about watching an EE marathon on the big screen, it gives me the feels.  The thing is, as much as I envied Sevilodorf's experience and wished that I had the same opportunity, I wondered if I would be able to enjoy it the way I would have at one time. 
I love the films! Especially the first two. ROTK has some of the most memorable and moving moments, but overall it's my least favorite; but I still loved it. Unlike many here, I read the books first, but only in anticipation of the films. My sister had try to interest me in the books years before, but her description left me cold.  But when I saw the previews for the films, wow! So when I read the books, it was thinking in terms of cinema. I could see that, whereas this or that aspect of the story was wonderful on the page, it wouldn't work so well on screen. I loved the books and felt a sort of protectiveness, and yet I wasn't attached to any particular vision of Middle-earth.
On first viewing of FOTR, I enjoyed it, but I was busy comparing the changes that were made v. the changes I had anticipated, etc. It was on second viewing that I fell in love. I wasn't blind to its faults, but my issues with it were never matters of what others might consider substance: timelines, absence and presence of various characters, deletions and additions of scenes...The things that bothered me were more matters of style and technique. These issues didn't interfere with my enjoyment, though, for a long time. I saw FOTR and TTT at least a dozen times each at the theater and ROTK almost as many times.( I sat through three all-night marathons while I was living in Poland. That was fun!) As for DVD viewings, I couldn't even begin to estimate how often I watched them all the way though, let alone all of the times I would watch favorite one hour segments while riding my exercise bike. 
*Sigh* Unfortunately, I burned myself out on these films that meant so much to me.  The more I watched, the more those little issues of style and technique that nagged me a little at first became more glaring and annoying. I can't watch them anymore. I still enjoy clips when I see them; and though I don't listen to the soundtracks beginning to end anymore, when I have iTunes on random play and one of the pieces comes up, I still get goosebumps!
So when news of TH films started, I was hopeful. I never got into TH book the way I did LOTR, but I was still hopeful that I would enjoy them. Alas, not. But, I'm forever grateful that the initial buzz about TH brought me here! My life has truly be enriched by all of you excellent and admirable Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves, and Men!
I wish I had discovered TORn back in the day; it must have been awesome poring over all the details, all of the triumphs and disappointments together!
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
(This post was edited by zarabia on Sep 6 2016, 6:19pm)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 7 2016, 2:54am
Post #7 of 26
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"I sit beside the fire and think
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of all that I have seen
of meadow-flowers and butterflies
in summers that have been;
Of yellow leaves and gossamer
in autumns that there were,
with morning mist and silver sun
and wind upon my hair.
I sit beside the fire and think
of how the world will be
when winter comes without a spring
that I shall ever see.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood in every spring
there is a different green.
I sit beside the fire and think
of people long ago
and people who will see a world
that I shall never know.
But all the while I sit and think
of times there were before,
I listen for returning feet
and voices at the door."
Nostalgia! Bilbo knew it well. You've brought his poem right back into my mind. And him, too, of course. But isn't that an undercurrent in LotR: the feeling that so much history has already taken place, and we're at the far end of the ages-long timeline, looking back, wishing we could have been there, wanting to have been part of it instead of coming in at the tail end. Nostalgia pervades the books.
It's been quite a while since I last saw the LotR movies in full! I, too, am one who likes FotR best of all, but then, I like that book best of them all, and was delighted to see the world brought to life.
And it was the movies that brought me here, too - although I did lurk between FotR and RotK, not becoming active until after the Oscars either, but enjoying the festivities vicariously. What fun amazing things have happened on TORn, over the years!
(And outside of TORn as well - never will I forget the awesome experience of the two of us casually chatting with Wayne Hammond and Christina Scull in a lobby at a Mythcon. Just being there with fellow TORnfolks, surrounded by so many Tolkien scholars, what a life-highlight! Ah, nostalgia!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 7 2016, 3:48am
Post #8 of 26
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Oh my friend, a wonderful time and great memory!
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The best of times, when I could meet a Tornsib in person. I had that privilege only 3 times, but it was so wonderful!
And now we Facebook, so I see pics and get updates on random things, and I am a firm believer that people can maintain friendships over the internet. But to eat cheese curds in a hotel room with a bunch of Tolkien geeks--? Nothing tops that kind of thing.
You are right, it's very Tolkien like to think of summers that have been, with that wistful feeling of time passing.
But nothing can bring back the hour of splendour in the grass, and glory in the flower (to quote from memory). I won't know what to do with myself, if I can't check into the RR once in awhile, where no one stares at me funny when they ask what my favorite book is, and I answer honestly.
Or anyway, I can't see them doing it.
This is really a special place, as I'm sure you well know.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 7 2016, 3:57am
Post #9 of 26
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You must have been here a LITTLE while, you ARE half elven already!!
Yes, it happens to me, too, when I see or talk to someone I haven't been with in awhile, not just because it makes me aware of time passing by that I can't call back, but because I'm hyperaware tbat my own time is running out, not right away of course. But I've got less time ahead of me now, and a lot of time gone by.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 7 2016, 4:07am
Post #10 of 26
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Bits and pieces is how I watch anyhow
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I don't hate the LOTR films, there are just parts I never liked. Unlike you, I read the books over and over for at least 30 years prior to the films, so I just tend to see ME in my own head.
But it WAS the movies that brought me to Torn, in a way: after the ROTK oscars, I saw a picture of Jackson in People magazine, in my doctor's waiting room. And he had a little blue pin on his lapel that said, "The One Ring . Net".
So I came to see what it was all about, and stayed.
I've been away, and then back, away and back. I always come back. As long as Toen is here, I will be back.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 7 2016, 4:45am
Post #11 of 26
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When I get nostalgic about my time on TORN,
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I think of the huge numbers of new fans that came here day after day after day following the release of FOTR, changing forever our wee discussions boards that had been fiery with anticipation and anxiety before the first movie came out. I also think of the joy of talking about Tolkien with people who got it, who understood why this story is so delightful and amazing and engrossing.
Without TORN I wouldn't have attended a post-Oscars party in LA, or a pre-Oscars screening of ROTK in LA that was packed with fellow fans, or made friends that have crossed that blurred line between 'virtual' and 'real-life'.
I also would have had vanishingly few people to talk about the big issues with, such as Faramir's extended story arc, the genius sound effect of the siren call of the One Ring, or whether the searchlight of Barad-dur was literally the representation of Sauron (it's not, FYI). Also, I bow before the pun-meisters extraordinaire here.
The discussion boards might be quieter now, but the community still rocks. :)
(BTW, I was relieved when you shortened your nick to a.s. when we moved over to NewTorn - it saved me from trying (and failing) to pronounce your full nick every time I saw it.) 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 7 2016, 4:47am)
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Ringtir
Rivendell
Sep 7 2016, 4:52pm
Post #13 of 26
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Why don't you like TTT and ROTK? Don't worry, I'm just curious, with an answer like "because they bored me" it's enough for me
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 7 2016, 10:15pm
Post #14 of 26
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Well, you are just going to get my personal feelings about them
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I meant it when I said I don't watch too many movies, and I certainly don't understand the film media in any way. I know what I like, and I know what I don't like, etc. I don't HATE movies, not at all. I am just not a very frequent movie watcher, I don't know why. Probably like any other inclination one has.
But the only way I could approach the films was as someone who already had a very firm internal picture of ME in her head, put there by 30 years of constant reading--and so sometimes the movies were just a visual shock to me. Sometimes a nice shock (Hobbiton, Edoras) and sometimes a weird shock (a teenage Frodo instead of a 35+ year old actor) and sometimes a very bad shock (Shelob, the orcs)--but only because the visual medium looked wrong, initially anyhow.
When I watched FOTR the first time (and got past Elijah Wood being a shock first of all, not that I hadn't seen the ads and etc, just the first time I heard him speak--Frodo, the most beloved character in my heart of hearts--it just wasn't Frodo yet), I could recognize that yes, this was the story, with some variations that ALL movies have from a book. No movie is slavishly like a book. But this was still my story in my head, even if the pictures were wrong and a bunch of text thrown out.
Imagine my shock, then, the first time I watched TT in the theater with my daughter (who saw all six movies with me, a mother-daughter thing!) and FARAMIR SAID TO TAKE THE RING TO MINIS TIRITH!! Oh no. Nope. Nope. I don't care, you see, that there are reasons Jackson did that, stuff about plot advancement and understandable motivations in visual vs. textual media--Faramir is the next best character (after Frodo and Sam) in the entire book and just. No.
So my ME, the one in my brain, cannot be reconciled with TT. There are some scenes I enjoy in that movie, but the I find I can't get past a Faramir who would EVER take the ring to his father, and so, I don't open that DVD case.
This has, as you can see, nothing to do with the merits of the movie, this is an individual reaction I have to it. Or rather, it might have something to do with the merits of the movie, but I don't care to argue about it. I just don't watch. I am not vested in it in any way anyhow---because I have my books and my ME is always there!
Similarly, ROTK: I have to skip the ENTIRE Shelob debacle because Frodo would never, ever, never never never EVER send Sam home. I don't really care, again, about why Jackson did it, you see? I just can't watch it. I already know Frodo, I knew him for 35 years before that movie, and still know him now, and rest assured, he would never do it.
In any of the films, but especially ROTK, I don't watch the battle scenes because they are boring to me. I gloss over those in the books, I don't have clear understanding of where troops are and etc. and never will. And never will care. I only ever want to know where Frodo and Sam are. The rest is fill, to me.
I do absolutely love the slow and gentle ending, and Jackson has my eternal gratitude for ending the film with "Well I'm back". A loving gesture to the source material and the fans who, like me, were afraid it would end more traditionally somehow.
But I am not sure a movie that I skip the majority of, qualifies as a movie I "like". The only one of the three I really like and occasionally still watch, is FOTR.
It's not like I don't know how the story goes, after all. I won't forget now.
I am not sure I answered your question, and I am sure the admins would not like a general discussion of where I have misinterpreted a Jackson decision and why film is different than text and etc, as there are two good boards for that kind of discussion. I only posted about FOTR because of nostalgic longing for Torn, after all.
But I think for many of us who read the books for decades prior to the movies, read them to the point of memorizing text, of knowing where words are on a page, of seeing Frodo's mithril shirt in our own brains, and what a Wizard looks like, can take or leave the films. Although on the whole, except for the above ramblings, I like the films (and bless the fast forward function of my DVD player remote), I vastly prefer to return to ME via my own synapses and Tolkien's words on a page.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Sep 7 2016, 10:27pm
Post #16 of 26
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**********************************
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 7 2016, 11:02pm
Post #17 of 26
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squire, you replied to me with a SMILEY, and I am
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honored to the point of tears now. My goodness.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Ringtir
Rivendell
Sep 9 2016, 3:52am
Post #18 of 26
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Thank you very much for such an answer
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And I understand what are you stating. I remember that when I first saw FOTR in the cinema, lots of things were very dissimilar to what I was expecting from my reading and imagination. And even those missing and changes were so lost for someone who already love the books.
But I think that Moria saves the movie for me. And then the trilogy grew on me, and stills growing. I even prefer the PJ's Faramir and lot of other things from the movie. But I like to research other opinions and compliment mine.
And a good welcome back to Torn, I'm very new around here(about a year older) and never saw you. But I totally agreed that this is lovely place to meet and talk about the Tolkien universe. Still not sure if it's somewhere like The Shire, Rivendel or Valinor.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 9 2016, 1:51pm
Post #19 of 26
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I'm missing the old Mods Up button
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Lovely, a.s. It's been an amazing ride.
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 9 2016, 4:16pm
Post #20 of 26
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Ode to the lost modding power, with apologies to Wordsworth
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My old footer seems to fit in here, what with the poem and all:
(From memory)
Though that which was once so bright
Be now forever taken from our sight,
Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of splendour in the stats, of glory in the power,
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind.
Speaking of nostalgic memory, one of the best was sitting in your living room watching gramma cooking in your kitchen.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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Loresilme
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 1:59am
Post #21 of 26
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I don't think I can separate them anymore
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TORn and LOTR and the books and the films. They're all connected, all part of it for me. I had not read the books growing up although I was always aware of them, the characters and the story. It wasn't until I saw the films at home, several years after they were out and finished in the theaters, that I fell in love with Middle-earth, read the books, and then, scouring the internet for other people who were obsessed about it like me, I found TORn. It's been ten years now. I've been active and not active and active and not active, during the years and those times when RL called me away, and then I always came back. To the wonderful, brilliant, caring, funny, articulate, amazing people at TORn.
And always will. It's been quiet here lately, but I still visit almost every day even if I don't sign in. I don't know what I would do if TORn went away. I don't want to even imagine it.
You know how when you get a new electronic device... a phone, a laptop .... you set up your internet Favorites? After my email and my bank info, TORn is always the next one I bookmark. Even after all this time .
Thank you a.s., your post made me smile, and tear up, too, to know others feel the same way. And always will .
Loresilme
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a.s.
Valinor
Sep 10 2016, 2:20pm
Post #22 of 26
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The books for me, too, now--because of the RR
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TORn and LOTR and the books and the films. They're all connected,
Yes.Even though I read (and continue to read) the books a lot of times prior to finding Torn, and although I had lurked in the early internet days on a couple USENET listserves (there, showing my age again!) devoted to Tolkien, I had never actually discussed the books at any length. I would buy the critical analysis books I could find, and the entire Letters, etc.--but no one in my social circles even knew the difference between Hobbit and LOTR to begin with.
But I fell in LOVE with Torn via the RR, and the book discussions.
So even now, sometimes when I'm re-reading I will think a thought and wonder, "Hmm. Have we ever discussed this in the RR?" or "Oh yes, I remember an argument--I mean, discussion--of this back on the old boards!"
So even the books are now bound up in my mind, with Torn. Long may she reign.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 13 2016, 2:45pm
Post #23 of 26
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I remember a very long client call, while all of you made dinner in my kitchen. We didn't get that work, so all that effort went for naught.
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grammaboodawg
Immortal
Sep 19 2016, 2:48am
Post #25 of 26
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Things are definitely more finite
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What a great topic!
I know that having TORn in my life has given me a deeper appreciation for Tolkien and his stories. I was already a rabid fan, but felt dwarfed and amazed by the brilliant people here! The friendships I have found will always warm my heart.
I have started my Fall-visit with book LotR and am waiting for the perfect time to watch the movie LotR. I always complicate my viewings by insisting they are watched in full (marathon), in quiet, and in-tently. I escape into the films (as I do the books), and they still have a great impact on me. I can feel my psyche shift into Tolkien-mode as soon as the screen goes dark... that mystical oooooo-sound starts... and Galadriel's voice fills the air. I'm captured every time. There are moments in all 3 where I kinda impatiently wait to move through and move on (mostly Saruman stuff), but I never EVER fast-forward!
I love movie FotR and the discovery of Middle-earth, the Shire, the characters and Bag End. I'm home in the book and in the film when in Bag End. The Shire and Bag End became my home at a time when I was homeless... both figuratively and literally (pardon the pun)! I can't get enough of them! When I first saw The Hobbit UJ's Hobbiton and Bilbo sitting outside Bag End for the first time, I nearly burst. Then Gandalf spoke to Bilbo about Good Morning and An Adventure, and I did burst!
I never really developed an aptitude for a scholarly understanding of Tolkien. I wish I did! I'm fascinated by those who can retain all of the nuances of Tolkien's world. Mine is more organic. I still revert to a comfortable, simple relationship to that world. I'm content with the simple life and my linear journey through the story (both film and book).
Your observation of having more to say goodbye to affecting the story for me is true... absolutely! Until my experiences of loss... death of loved ones/friends, marriage ending, family home of nearly 70 years gone, children grown and gone... I couldn't truly understand how it would feel or how it would impact my life and anticipation of what's to come. The finality of past options, choices and their outcomes resonates so much! Of saying goodbye to familiarity and the things taken for granted for so long. Learning to accept the changes and enjoy what's to come with no fear. LotR speaks to me of these more now than it has ever spoken to my experiences in the past as I embrace the winter of my years.
Thanks to TORn, I can share the feelings I have of Tolkien and what his work means to me with people who I know can understand J
We have been there and back again.
TIME Google Calendar
6th draft of TH:AUJ Geeky Observations List - November 28, 2013
4th draft of TH:DOS Geeky Observations List - May 15, 2014
5th draft of TH:BotFA Geeky Observations List - January 30, 2015
TORn's Geeky Observations Lists for LotR and The Hobbit
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