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LittleHobbit
Lorien
Sep 2 2016, 2:17am
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Spiders on the BOTFA.....
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Do you think, would it be a good idea if the giant spiders from Mirkwood appeared in the final battle of the trilogy? It would make very much sense, since (unlike the book) the armies of Orcs are armies sent by Sauron himself, and the spiders are also creatures 'influenced' by the evil presence of Sauron. They were the only creatures missing... orcs, trolls, bats, every creature was there. But the spiders weren't. :(
Do you think it would be a good idea to have the giant Mirkwood spiders participate in The Battle of the Five Armies?
(This post was edited by LittleHobbit on Sep 2 2016, 2:18am)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 2 2016, 3:20am
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I'm already confused by Trolls that can be out in daylight - and what were the bats for? I think they were there because they were in the book, because they served no real purpose other than being annoying. And then there were the were-worms, which got a very mixed reaction. No, I think more critters would have been a distraction at best - and this is from someone who LIKED BOT5A!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Sep 2 2016, 3:54am
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I'm honestly not sure if daylight is supposed to be an issue for Sauron's creatures in PJ's Middle-Earth. We see Azog and his guys running around in broad daylight in all three films with no apparent adverse effects. Even back in TTT the Warg-Riders seemed to be just fine in the sun.
If the Uruk-hai were supposed to be special for their daylight resistance, it doesn't come across very clearly.
And to answer the OP, more creatures would have been too many. As it was, having the Ogres in addition to Orcs, Goblins, Wargs, Trolls, and Bats seemed too much.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 2 2016, 11:54am
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No, I'm afraid I think it would be a terrible idea.....
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..because I really HATE spiders! I know they had to be in Mirkwood, even though it means there's one bit of film I tend to watch with my eyes closed (unless I'm feeling really brave).
Even in terms of the film story I don't see any reason why they needed to be in the battle. Why would they want to leave the wood, and how effective would they be without trees to spin webs around? I take it that they're part of the corruption of Greenwood the Great because they are drawn to the evil of Sauron but I don't see them as taking orders from him. I don't think they're 'his' creatures in the way the orcs are. They kill to defend their patch and to eat - I can't see what interest they would have in the battle, in the film as much as the book.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Sep 2 2016, 11:58am
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to provide Specialized Transportation, of course.  There really are one or two things Legolas can't do. 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 2 2016, 4:57pm
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Really, he could have done it without the bats-he just doesn't like showing off.
Yes, according to a news headline Yahoo helpfully put in front of my face the other day, OB was rather shy about what, apparently, was flying in the breeze in some *unexpected* images and no bats whatsoever are involved. (And I wonder about the subject matter any number of pop-ups are eager to tell me about OMG and why are the Kardas..whatever apparently famous again???)
No, I am not putting up a link.
No, I didn't go look. I didn't . Look, as many have complained about, the Hobbit films are positively crammed w. testosterone-laden *eye candy* and other countries are more "natural" than the confused U.S. so it's nothing more or less that hasn't been seen before, in Europe anyway, which also has clotted cream and awesome chocolate.
Anyway, if I'm going to look at someone's backside, it's gonna be because I'm slobbering with drool admiring Thorin's hair from behind...
(And that DOES NOT make me a STALKER. Merely one who appreciates a MIRACLE when one *unexpectedly* appears as we tread the grey rock-strewn cracked pathways of life, trying not to trip...)
I only mention Legolas' frequent attempts to ignore gravity because of that concept of FREEDOM in FLIGHT. And to be fair, any number of denizens of Middle Earth have made use of avian transportation methods, (although as far as I know Legolas is the only character who simply disposed of his ride at the conclusion of the flight. So rude! )
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Sep 2 2016, 7:16pm
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Be caught with his pants down - unless they're Scotsmen!
Uh, sorta Thorin???
Sorta Kili???
Anyway, I prefer my Dwarves to leave just a little bit to the imagination
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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DeadRabbits
Rohan
Sep 3 2016, 10:36pm
Post #9 of 92
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How did a thread about spiders at the BotFA...
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... become something entirely different? Just wondering...
Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Sep 3 2016, 10:40pm
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Once you set foot in a thread here, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to...
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 10:04am
Post #11 of 92
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I expected them to be involved in the Dol Guldur scenes
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...at least .
And yes, way too much fangirl-ism in here.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Sep 4 2016, 1:11pm
Post #12 of 92
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No, I wasn't expecting the Spiders at BotFA
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I'm glad that they didn't turn up; the battle was chaotic enough already.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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LSF
Gondor
Sep 4 2016, 3:35pm
Post #13 of 92
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The visual of the dwarves on their goats fighting the spiders is very cool
But... I don't feel they're needed. There's enough creatures on the villain side. And maybe Sauron wanted them to stay and keep gaining land in Mirkwood or something.
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 4:16pm
Post #14 of 92
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I'm actually surprised PJ didn't decide to throw them in there, also the rock giants.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 4 2016, 4:38pm
Post #15 of 92
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Probably because he and the artists who design these things with him....
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... are very realistic about what works practically and visually onscreen and what doesn't.
Put a bunch of spiders on the battlefield and what are they going to do? Clamber over things, spin webs from - er - what? Azog's false arm? Bringing them in would just have made for visual chaos - and if anyone had suggested it they'd have had the last Harry Potter film for reference, where the spiders turn up on the battlefield but are only visible for a few seconds and don't actually do anything. The idea's not bed (if you don't mind looking at spiders) but the execution of it is challenging, to say the least.
As for the stone giants, that would've been exceptionally silly. Birnam Wood may have come to Dunsinane but if the Misty Mountains had suddenly turned up at Erebor they'd have flattened the Lonely Mountain and everything else for miles around - AND they'd have been more interested in fighting one another than any of the available armies.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 4:55pm
Post #16 of 92
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Obviously PJ wasn't making these films with Tolkien fans like me in mind,
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but as for the types of fans who prefer PJ's deviations, I can see him including them in the battle in a way they would enjoy. It wouldn't be any more chaotic than the way he decided to change the barrel scene.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 4 2016, 6:29pm
Post #17 of 92
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The barrel scene was certainly changed a lot.....
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...an awful lot, but I wouldn't call it chaotic. Every beat of it looks pretty carefully choreographed to me - it's fast but it's coherent and it tells its own story. It's just a lot busier and full of characters and incidents (and noise, and fighting, and hair-raising escapes) than the scene as described by Tolkien.
It's normal for film adaptations of books these days to heighten tension and increase action - Peter Jackson's not alone in that. I've just started re-reading the Potter books after some years and had forgotten how completely different scenes like Harry and Ron's journey to school in the flying car in 'Chamber of Secrets' are from their film equivalent.
As for the intended audience, to be fair, I don't think Peter Jackson intends to alienate anyone from the films - why would he. But what he can't do is aim the film only at a small group of book fans who have their own very well-defined and cherished idea of the story. He makes the films for everyone - or at least the widest possible audience. And the only way he can do that is make the film his way, hoping that his enthusiasm will be infectious. That's the same as any film director. You always write as though you're the only Tolkien fan around here but you're not. I've loved the books for over fifty years and regularly re-read them. I'm perfectly well aware of the changes Peter Jackson made across the board, in all six films, and while some day I'd love to see Glorfindel, and lovely noble Faramir who would never have let his men torture Gollum, and Bilbo's lonely barrel ride, and the elf lights in the forest, and..... - I can also see more beauty and wonder - more of what holds me to Tolkien - in the films than you would want me to list right now, hating it all as you do. I have to admit that while Bilbo's lonely barrel ride is the story, as I watched the film version I was drawn in to the excitement and laughed at Bombur, and clung to the edge of the seat, and each time I went I heard the audience around me loving that scene. It isn't the book but in the cinema, it works. But this isn't a question of 'prefering PJ's deviations' at all - I simply accept the film as a retelling of the story and let it tell me the story in its own way. Tplkien's real story is in my head already - I don't feel threatened by the changes.
And if just a few of the audience are drawn by the films to the real story, then I cheer the films.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Avandel
Half-elven
Sep 4 2016, 6:54pm
Post #18 of 92
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Just sayin', his #Majesty wasn't known for a sense of direction....
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 6:55pm
Post #19 of 92
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but PJ's methods have alienated a specific type of Tolkien admirer, the type that feels the books fall into a much more prestigious category than the average run of the mill "fantasy" story, and therefore should be handled as such. PJ handled this adaptation as if he were doing Eragon or something.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Sep 4 2016, 7:03pm
Post #20 of 92
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PJ handled this adaptation as if he were doing Eragon or something. PJ handled it as if he were doing The hobbit and a prequle to LOTR.
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 7:10pm
Post #21 of 92
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he adapted it in a way that would appeal to fans of books like Eragon.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Sep 4 2016, 9:51pm
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Wizzardly, what does it take.....
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... for you to accept that a genuine love of the books and one as strong as your own doesn't preclude appreciation of the films?
Tolkien's books are not 'the average run of the mill "fantasy" story'. They are unique - an imaginative creation born of the author's love of language and evolving and changing throughout his life. And it seems obvious to me that Peter Jackson knew that as well as you or I do. Look at the care he took to involve from the start people who already had a connection to Tolkien's work. Look at the documentaries about Tolkien on the Lord of the Rings Extended versions. Can you name any other film adaptation that went to those lengths to acknowledge the original, or was as frank about the changes that were made for the films and why they were made?
For sure not everyone who has read the books likes those changes and you're one who doesn't. I don't care for all of them but I still take my hat off to the team who made the films (this is all six films) for the dedication and care they showed. There is no supeiorr class of 'Tolkien admirer' who can see beyond the rest of us poor mutts and no high moral ground to occupy on this. We're all different.
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 10:20pm
Post #23 of 92
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I think you would be hard pressed to find...
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many who would deny that the LotR trilogy is the better of the two PJ adaptations. And while there is much in the LotR films I did not care for, I still consider it a very good attempt at capturing the spirit of the original work. It is by no means perfect, however. The Hobbit though it featured the amazing talents of many of the people who worked on LotR, (especially John Howe and Alan Lee), it wasn't enough to save it from being a complete and total disappointment in my mind. I understand for cinematic reasons changes sometimes need to be made when adapting a book to film, but in the case of the Hobbit, I firmly believe the vast majority of the changes were completely unnecessary and ultimately ruined the story.
(This post was edited by wizzardly on Sep 4 2016, 10:25pm)
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wizzardly
Rohan
Sep 4 2016, 10:37pm
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I can accept that there are those who appreciate both the book and the movies, and don't see my point of view.
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Ringtir
Rivendell
Sep 5 2016, 9:58am
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Specially because I know a lot of people didn't care for fantasy topic. But really felt in love with LOTR. Instead, TH trilogy it's just for the PJ die hardcore fans. There is none who likes other themes in movies that finds TH a rewatchable movie.
That makes the trilogy bad? Nope for the fans. But they are a tiny group, just like the original book lovers (wich in fact, are much more)
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True
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