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Harold.of.Whoa
Rivendell
Aug 29 2016, 2:44am
Post #26 of 31
(805 views)
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for the person downthread who would have found it jackson's depiction more acceptable if an insertion was made in the films in which it was made clear arwen acted against her father's wishes / without his permission... well, that is quite in line with many sexist (and tired) tropes. gosh forbid a female character takes a brave and bold action that isn't inherently controversial within her social context, which deems she ought to stay at home and watch the boys go out into the wide world and do great deeds.
As the poster in question I confess that I don't understand what you are on about, but I'm sure the self-righteous tone is justified by some offense on my part.
To be clear, I never suggested the idea would make the "depiction more acceptable" - I'm quite happy with it the way it is. The primary reason I would have liked to see such an addition is that it would solidify the films' depiction of Elrond rather than undercut it. Jackson's Elrond is a quintessential embalmer who is looking to withdraw and preserve rather than engage. His highest aspiration for his daughter is to get her on a ship to the West. Why would he send her out on a dangerous scouting mission to meet up with Aragorn when he is going to turn right around and play every card in the deck, ethical or not, to separate them?
The point is not at all to make Arwen "inherently controversial within her social context", but I don't think in terms of agenda-driven tosh, so I may have overlooked some of the ramifications of my simple suggestion.
Does that chip get heavy after a while?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 29 2016, 3:14am
Post #27 of 31
(801 views)
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Thanks for your thoughts Maciliel
[In reply to]
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I am a big book-firster and as I stated I don’t like debating movie to book discrepancies, but occasionally I get draaawn in.
But there is no need to “feel” for me. I am quite happy in my stance on the Glorfindel/Arwen discussion, and you, being a reasonable person, are also entitled to your opinion.
As for “beauty” and “atrocity”, I find great beauty in Tolkien’s depiction of Arwen in Many Meetings, and a great atrocity in Jackson’s portrayal of her as a warrior princess. Thus in this I must take the position of (what I consider) Tolkien’s intent. The beauty lies with Tolkien, the atrocity lies with Jackson.
I hope, in kindness, we can agree to disagree.
And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 29 2016, 3:28am
Post #28 of 31
(797 views)
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hi there --
no need to get personal, as i did not. i stated analysis and opinion about the scene, and tolkien's writings, not your (presumed) state of mind. would probably work out for the best if you did the same, yes?
and, while you are within your rights (certainly) to have opinions about the way gender relations are depicted in various media, plenty (including me) would diverge greatly from your assessment of such things as "agenda-driven tosh," and find many legitimate reasons for doing so.
if i have inaccurately cast your musings on the scene (i.e., adding another, in which it is made clear arwen has acted against her father's wishes would make jackson's version more palatable for you), then i am in error, and accept correction on that point freely and easily.
there is merit in your thesis that elrond is the "quintessential embalmer," and pursuing that thought leads to some interesting others (and lends weight to your argument that -- as the scene stands in jackson's film -- elrond would not have given permission for arwen to go on that particular errand. it lends strength to your argument, but i also add that that does not presently alter my take.
again, i urge you to focus on the text, the film, etc. rather than on me personally. i suspect that that will yield a far more satisfying exchange.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Aug 29 2016, 3:38am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Aug 29 2016, 3:37am
Post #29 of 31
(796 views)
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hallo bracegirdle --
re my "feeling for you" -- it was a wholly involuntary, human reaction. not done out of any need of mine.
i see ample evidence that we are equally happy to coexist with each other's opinions. it certainly causes me no distress to think that yours differ; to the contrary, i have always found those arwen scenes wonderful and, at certain points, beautiful, so it was surprising and stimulating to hear your strong opposing view.
i also, btw, am a book-firster, and some of jackson's changes bother me, some i think are wonderful, and some just exist in their own reality (it's a movie, and a collaborative effort by many folks other than tolkien, vs. it's a book done by tolkien only) and i just accept that one is the film and one is the book.
i have absolutely no problems with your opinions, or your expression of them, and am happy to read and reflect on any additional ones you have.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Aug 29 2016, 3:48am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Aug 30 2016, 6:51pm
Post #30 of 31
(735 views)
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And my favorite Arwen depiction was in Book 6
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I really liked the brief exchange between Arwen and Frodo in Minas Tirith after her marriage to Aragorn, where she tells Frodo that 1) she freely chose mortality (she sounds so happy at the time vs. how she winds up in the Appendix), and 2) she gives him the diamond from her neck, telling Frodo that it would comfort him at need, plus he could go to the West in her place. She displayed considerable regal command and generosity in that short episode in addition to a strong will to face her fate.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Aug 30 2016, 10:26pm
Post #31 of 31
(724 views)
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Yes, that is a moving gracious exchange
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And before the marriage
And Frodo when he saw her come glimmering in the evening, with stars on her brow and a sweet fragrance about her, was moved with great wonder, and he said to Gandalf: ‘At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!’
[and later]
. . . and she sang a song of Valinor, while the Tree grew and blossomed. And in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:
’ “ My son,” said Gilraen, “your aim is high, even for the descendant of many kings. For this lady is the noblest and fairest that now walks the earth. And it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin.”
Where now your sword and shield Arwen?
And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
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