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StingingFly
Lorien
Jul 25 2016, 4:29pm
Post #26 of 73
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to quote Planes, Trains, and Automobiles..."You're going the wrong way!"
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Once again, Sauron has this massive army he has crafted in secret and cloaked with an invisibility spell...then marches it out into the open, hundreds of miles away from its intended targets!
... to an area he already controls, with little strategic value.
Lorien is right next door. Unleash your hidden army and smash one of the last elven strongholds....or
Follow the Anduin south and crush Gondor, before they can rally the strength of men.
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LSF
Gondor
Jul 25 2016, 4:40pm
Post #27 of 73
(1447 views)
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Why would he attack those places now?
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He's not at full personal power yet. There are still army resources he needs to gather before attempting a successful full-on all-fronts attack like in LOTR. He not ready for that yet. He probably should not try to go against Elves and Men yet. Erebor is empty of forces that can oppose him. Sure, he might take out Lorien or Gondor, but it might drain his power and resources too much to do much else immediately after.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 25 2016, 8:36pm
Post #28 of 73
(1421 views)
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Once again, Sauron has this massive army he has crafted in secret and cloaked with an invisibility spell...then marches it out into the open, hundreds of miles away from its intended targets!
... to an area he already controls, with little strategic value.
Lorien is right next door. Unleash your hidden army and smash one of the last elven strongholds....or
Follow the Anduin south and crush Gondor, before they can rally the strength of men.
It is because Sauron is not at full strength that he wants to first secure the cooperation of Smaug. I very much doubt that the dragon would be willing to leave his hoard unguarded, so that is one reason why Azog must march to the Lonely Mountain first. Another reason is that the Mountain might not be a particularly valuable strategic location for Sauron himself; however, if it is occupied by his enemies then it becomes a valuable resource and strategic location for them--as we see in the Battle of Dale in the Appendices to Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings.
Sauron's Orc-armies presumably lack the inner strength to overcome the power of the Elven Rings wielded by Elrond and Galadriel. Smaug might have been able to do so, opening the way to Rivendell and Lothlórien. He might be able to use the Nazgûl to similar effect, but it might require all Nine to overcome the power of the Rings worn by the High Elves. It does not seem that Sauron is prepared to attack the South at this time with powerful Elf-strongholds at his back. And to attack Gondor, the Enemy must first pass through Rohan and thus give up any chance at surprise.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 25 2016, 8:39pm)
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StingingFly
Lorien
Jul 25 2016, 9:25pm
Post #29 of 73
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Sauron builds an enormous army in complete secrecy, as part of his master plan to conquer the world...then sends them to a completely out of the way location to babysit Smaug's treasure?
Why not shift orcs over from Gundabad? As the films tell us, Gundabad is a short day trip from Erebor.
When the orcs from Gundabad secure Erebor, Smaug joins the army in Dul Guldor.
From there, Sauron could unleash a fatal strike on Lorien. 35,000 Dul Guldor orcs, led by Smaug and the Nine!
Also, the later importance of Erebor is that it became a stronghold after humans and dwarves moved back into the area and rebuilt, funded by mountains of gold. It helped that this gold was shared, instead of hoarded, enriching not only the dwarves, but all the surrounding kingdoms. None of That existed at the time of Thorin's quest. There was only desolation.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 25 2016, 10:03pm
Post #30 of 73
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...for at least some of the advance his army isn't in the open, it uses tunnels to march through.
And isn't it heading towards its intended target (the Lonely Mountain), which isn't in an area he controls, but will be of great strategic value if he can win it - hence the army....
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 25 2016, 10:06pm
Post #31 of 73
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Every time I see this thread title...
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I have to resist the urge to say "to get to the other side".
I've just decided to stop resisting! 
Sorry, do please continue....
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 25 2016, 10:49pm
Post #32 of 73
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This is all speculation and guesswork, but why move troops in Gundabad farther way from Rivendell if that might be Sauron's first target? The idea is just to leave a small contingent of Azog's army at Erebor--just enough to hold it against the Free Peoples. Much like the Woodland Realm, Lothlórien has been most active in protecting its own borders rather than confronting the Enemy directly. Elrond in Rivendell has been a far more active pain in Sauron's side.
Sauron knows that Thorin is attempting to regain Erebor. He does not want to see that happen, especially if he doesn't realize that Thorin is in danger of being consumed in dragon-sickness. There is the possibility that Thorin could unite the region just as Dain does once he becomes King under the Mountain.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Jul 26 2016, 2:45am
Post #33 of 73
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You don't secure an asset like Erebor by only having one guy there, despite how big and powerful Smaug is. Dragons aren't invincible, and Smaug could be chased out of Erebor or killed. Smaug would still be a great ally, but to have him as your only presence in that area isn't a good strategic plan. It looked like the reason why Dain did come to help was because Smaug was dead. That was exactly a risk Sauron had wanted to avoid- someone getting rid of Smaug, then a larger army coming in to take Erebor with no obstacles.
Smaug is like an army all unto himself. I picture it as Sauron sending Smaug as a forward point operative, one capable of leveling whole armies or razing kingdoms all by his lonesome. So we need to have an occupying force to hold Erebor in Smaug's absence, while the rest of the army rampages either in the wake of the dragon, or goes off to do it's own mischief while Smaug deals with Gondor or Rivendell.
Smaug goes and does whatever at Sauron's order (or request, depending on where you stand on the whole alliance notion), and then When he is finished, he either returns to Erebor to siesta, or builds a new nest somewhere else he might find convenient.
It might have been a great idea, till Smaug went and got crosswise of a local human with a grudge. :)
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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LSF
Gondor
Jul 26 2016, 3:58am
Post #34 of 73
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I never thought Sauron would only use Smaug to guard Erebor. I always thought he would send Smaug out to do things, which is why it is very important to have an occupying force other than Smaug stationed at Erebor. But whether Smaug is sent out on missions or not, it would still be stupid to leave the security of a valuable asset like Erebor to one guy.
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Jul 26 2016, 11:26pm
Post #35 of 73
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I agree! I never meant to imply otherwise, and I apologize if I came across that way. :)
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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StingingFly
Lorien
Jul 27 2016, 12:21am
Post #36 of 73
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Are we to believe Smaug would surrender control of Erebor to Sauron?
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Sauron is going to march an army to Erebor and take charge while Smaug goes out and fights for him?
Remember, Smaug is a vicious, greedy, egotistical, violent loner, whose sole purpose in life is to guard his massive treasure hoard.
This is the dragon who flips out and burns down lake town because Bilbo stole a cup. Is he going to allow thousands of filthy orcs to take control of his territory while he goes out to do Sauron's dirty work?
If Smaug wanted the north cleaned out he would do it himself. He doesn't need Azog to take out lake town or the iron hills, so again, why does Azog lead his forces northwest?
Those that are trying to answer this question are doing a commendable job, and I respect your answers. I feel this is yet another plot hole that just doesn't get properly addressed due to the nature of the final film. Azog doesn't even seem to care that Smaug is dead, as if Smaug wasn't part of his plan to come North...but where was he going then?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 27 2016, 1:23am
Post #37 of 73
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Are we to believe Smaug would surrender control of Erebor to Sauron?
Gandalf must believe it could happen, although he also wants Erebor restored to the Dwarves and the peoples of Rhovanion united. That also requires that Smaug is removed from the Mountain.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Jul 27 2016, 2:42am
Post #38 of 73
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That circles us inevitably back to the question of whether Sauron and Smaug were allied cohorts, or whether Sauron could, in fact, bend Smaug to his bidding, willing or not.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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wizzardly
Rohan
Jul 27 2016, 2:52am
Post #39 of 73
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The appendices and the Quest for Erebor essay only suggest that Gandalf was concerned that Sauron "might" possibly think to use Smaug to his advantage...never is it suggested that an alliance was actually formed between the two.
And besides, I don't think PJ ever read either of those anyway, because if he had, he would have known that Azog was already dead.
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squiggle
Rivendell
Jul 27 2016, 2:59am
Post #40 of 73
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Smaug's two joys in life are Gold and equally Tyranny, of which Smaug...
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revels in & prides himself on his reputation for.
Sauron alliance provides Smaug the opportunity for terrorising ME in a major crusade that would be legendary bad-ass, & Smaug's name would be uttered with fear through out all the lands.
I don't think it could really get better than that for ole Smaug 
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wizzardly
Rohan
Jul 27 2016, 3:12am
Post #42 of 73
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Sauron might have been able to persuade him for his assistance with the promise of a more dignified death scene than the one that PJ wrote for him.
As far as PJ's missing the bit about Azog having already being dead, I attribute that to the fact that he was winging the entire production.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 27 2016, 3:18am
Post #43 of 73
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And besides, I don't think PJ ever read either of those anyway, because if he had, he would have known that Azog was already dead.
Jackson knew that in Tolkien's legendarium Dain killed Azog in the Battle of Azanulbizar. He chose to ignore that and bring Azog into the narrative's present. Whether you approve of that decision is a completely separate issue.
"He who lies artistically, treads closer to the truth than ever he knows." -- Favorite proverb of the wizard Ningauble of the Seven Eyes
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wizzardly
Rohan
Jul 27 2016, 3:30am
Post #44 of 73
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I just prefer to believe he made a mistake...
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That way I can forgive him, cause afterall, we all make mistakes. 
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LittleHobbit
Lorien
Aug 2 2016, 4:37pm
Post #45 of 73
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Sauron might have been able to persuade him for his assistance with the promise of a more dignified death scene than the one that PJ wrote for him.
As far as PJ's missing the bit about Azog having already being dead, I attribute that to the fact that he was winging the entire production.
Haven't I and others shown to you a few months back that the ''I didn't know what the hell I was doing'' comment from P.J. was a complete fabrication of the person who edited that Youtube video? And therefore is TOTALLY false and invalid for use any discussion? You know that, and are still using this argument? 
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wizzardly
Rohan
Aug 4 2016, 11:51pm
Post #46 of 73
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I am aware of the fact that the video on youtube was edited specifically to highlight the negative aspects of the movies, this however does not negate the fact that the comments made by pj and the others were actual comments made by them regarding the filming of these movies. Even with the omitted quotes where they basically talk about coming to resolutions to the problems they faced, it was still abundantly clear that the conditions these movies were made under were less than ideal. So yes I believe that the video is completely valid in conversations regarding where and why these movies went wrong.
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LittleHobbit
Lorien
Aug 5 2016, 10:24am
Post #47 of 73
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the video was not talking about the trilogy in general but just about the climatic Battle of Five Armies. In other words, just the final segment of the last movie. Do you have any evidence that the video was talking about the trilogy as a whole? Also, two more points:
1 - LOTR had problems while filming too. Does that make it a bad movie?
2 - What matters is the final product, not what went down behind the scenes. Casablanca was filled with screenwriting problems and such, but does that make it any less of a masterpiece? Of course not.
(This post was edited by LittleHobbit on Aug 5 2016, 10:26am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 5 2016, 1:44pm
Post #48 of 73
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...a clever editor can take an actual comment and cut it, shape it, divorce it from its contex,t to make it say anything he jolly well likes. So the edited comment is not appropriate as the basis for discussion (unless it's a discussion of the editor's intentions....)
I don't think anyone would deny that the films were made under less than ideal conditions. Lots of us watched the story unfold from the outset and despaired of there ever being Hobbit films. Peter Jackson and others are commendably honest about the difficulties they faced and I think it's disingenuous to use that honesty against them. They're not telling us where and why the films went wrong, or making excuses for the films, they're telling us how they met and overcame the problems involved in their making.
I'd rather applaud them for a triumph pulled from the jaws of multiple disasters!
For still there are so many things
that I have never seen:
in every wood and every spring
there is a different green. . .
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wizzardly
Rohan
Aug 5 2016, 4:56pm
Post #49 of 73
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"I spent so much of 'The Hobbit' feeling like I was not on top of it for the fact that I hadn't much prep and was making it up as I went along"--Peter Jackson
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LSF
Gondor
Aug 5 2016, 6:23pm
Post #50 of 73
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If you don't think making some stuff up as you go along is not a big part of any creative field, then do I have shocking news for you. That includes story writing (for any medium), filmmaking, and sciences like chemistry and aerospace engineering... It can come as a necessity to a wide variety of problems or because the person wants to see where different decisions can lead or even a mix of the two. Some people deal with it better than others and some people are more honest and open about it than others.
They planned LOTR for 3 years before first day of shooting, and there was still making it up and improvising as they went along.
Here's an article on ten things that could have sank Spielberg's Jaws, including the mechanical shark props not working correctly in the water on set (which, if I recall right, led to the movie ending up a lot more suspenseful than was planned) http://www.hitfix.com/news/jaws-turns-40-10-times-the-production-was-scarier-than-the-movie. I'm sure he did not have a week off between each problem to figure it out perfectly before continuing on with filming.
I doubt any movie production is completely free of problems or decisions that would leave a director frazzled and have to improvise something. I will always have respect for those who are honest about such things and say "but despite all that, we made it through, and here's how we did."
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